So I was finally forced...
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to build a Windows 8.1 machine at work. After 5 minutes of using it, I can honestly say I HATE it... with a passion... with extreme prejudice. No wonder this thing is failing in the market.
A guide to posting questions on CodeProject[^]
Dave KreskowiakFor personal use the cheap Start8 program neuters Modern/Metro just fine for me, but I can well understand how, even with Start8 or something like it, supporting mobs of users of all skill levels across an enterprise would be a nightmare. Even using Start8, you can easily, by accident, get thrown back into the Modern tile-pit. A friend of mine, in her seventies, a world-class art-history of Asia expert, describes learning to use Modern on her new Win8 laptop as being like having to live in world where the English alphabet has been suddenly replaced with Egyptian hieroglyphics :) I'm trying to get her to buy and install Start8.
“The best hope is that one of these days the Ground will get disgusted enough just to walk away ~ leaving people with nothing more to stand ON than what they have so bloody well stood FOR up to now.” Kenneth Patchen, Poet
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to build a Windows 8.1 machine at work. After 5 minutes of using it, I can honestly say I HATE it... with a passion... with extreme prejudice. No wonder this thing is failing in the market.
A guide to posting questions on CodeProject[^]
Dave KreskowiakIf you take the ui issues out, win 8x is way better in the view of performance upgrades. I barely wait or wait for not more than 10-15 secs to boot my pc unlike the predecessors where I waited for ages. I am sure ms is working on rooting this ui issue out in their future updates and who knows it could well be the best from ms then.
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For personal use the cheap Start8 program neuters Modern/Metro just fine for me, but I can well understand how, even with Start8 or something like it, supporting mobs of users of all skill levels across an enterprise would be a nightmare. Even using Start8, you can easily, by accident, get thrown back into the Modern tile-pit. A friend of mine, in her seventies, a world-class art-history of Asia expert, describes learning to use Modern on her new Win8 laptop as being like having to live in world where the English alphabet has been suddenly replaced with Egyptian hieroglyphics :) I'm trying to get her to buy and install Start8.
“The best hope is that one of these days the Ground will get disgusted enough just to walk away ~ leaving people with nothing more to stand ON than what they have so bloody well stood FOR up to now.” Kenneth Patchen, Poet
They said if one knew all the Word 2.0 toolbar icons, one could pass the basic Chinese exam :) Upgrade to 8.1 and she can read the titles of the icons going downwards on the Start screen. I'm sure she will appreciate reading the Metro titles instead of the crowded, 8 pt System font desktop titles on the 22" full HD screen. For anything else, press WinKey+X.
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Where do I begin?! :laugh: First, look at this from the standpoint that I have some 8,500+ users who are used to Windows XP/7. Without any help at all, find Shutdown, Restart, or Logoff. Yeah, very different from what people are used to and not intuitive at all. You basically have 2 different desktops. The "normal" (barely qualifies!) Desktop that we're all used to, an then there's the "other" (formally known as Metro) desktop that is just a mess to find stuff on and use a mouse with. From an IT standpoint, you now have TWO interactive logon sessions when logged it at the console. I'm guessing that one is for Desktop and the other Metro. Apps start from the same screen, but depending on their type, can be on either desktop. This is just a support NIGHTMARE without putting out a "How Do I..." guide to every workstation. My personal view is that "THEY MOVED MY CHEESE!" Where the f'ck is this?? Where the f'uck is that?? Basically, it's way too big of a jump in the functionality of the UI. They should have made the changes to the UI more gradual changes so they don't loose and confuse users. My F-I-L would be completely lost using Win8. The only reason we have a Win8.1 image at work at all is because a few big wigs wanted it. It's not going to be pushed to all desktops because of the learning curve and we're waiting to see what changes MS makes in Win9 to make it more "Enterprise Friendly"*. * Your definition may vary from Microsofts.
A guide to posting questions on CodeProject[^]
Dave KreskowiakI built an 8.1 system last month. It was not 'hate at first sight' for me. But it is, well, still windows. Good luck with getting anything to work unless you first force an update of all the built-in apps. One thing I like is the way it breaks out my Visual Studio installation into all the components. There is actually no need to trawl for GUIDGen or the VS Command Line. Having said which, I haven't switched it on since. I'm going to sell it to a Windows mug enthusiast as a going concern. I also have an ancient box running 7 in the kitchen, which is good enough for any home work. My main PC's everyday are both 13.10 Ubuntu, which is fine by me. Free everything, no 'eye of the needle' booting, no expensive or adware riven applications and AV. Just point and shoot.
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Right idea, wrong O/S. We buy machines and they come with a Win8 license. The first we do is scrape 'em down to bare metal and slap it with the corporate Win7 load. That's why it's 200M licenses sold, but not in use. Considering the number of Windows machines on the planet, 200M is nothing.
A guide to posting questions on CodeProject[^]
Dave KreskowiakOurs come with both 7 and 8 images & licenses, we (as in not me) fire it up and choose the image to install (Win7 at the moment) so I'm buggered if I know how that works for the license counter....
If your neighbours don't listen to The Ramones, turn it up real loud so they can. “We didn't have a positive song until we wrote 'Now I Wanna Sniff Some Glue!'” ― Dee Dee Ramone "The Democrats want my guns and the Republicans want my porno mags and I ain't giving up either" - Joey Ramone
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Really! Advertising no breadcrumbs like that is a feature. :doh: Why not go back to running Windows 3.11 if you want the retro look and feel? :~ I know people are resistant to change but get real. Some changes are for the better.
The report of my death was an exaggeration - Mark Twain
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopesIndeed. But this isn't one of those. Get Real.
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Really! Advertising no breadcrumbs like that is a feature. :doh: Why not go back to running Windows 3.11 if you want the retro look and feel? :~ I know people are resistant to change but get real. Some changes are for the better.
The report of my death was an exaggeration - Mark Twain
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopesIts a shame that people only seem to focus on the UI as a major problem (Don't even see it as a problem) and instead completely ignoring all the other massive benefits to the OS. Such as; Better performance Access to the latest Dev kits for WP8, W8, DX11.2 etc. Almost all the UI is vastly superior, such as windows explorer. No Aero for performance improvements, task manager etc. More secure than 7 Plenty of excellent tools that just don't exist in 7: such as Drive Pooling and local Hyper-V virtual machines! Seriously, Local Hyper-V is a godlike for virtual machines and I think its terrible that hardly anyone even knows about it! I just don't see how with all these major improvements and dozens more that I haven't mentioned, how could people base their decision to nerf their computer life for the sake of having a start menu. (ClassicShell?)
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Indeed. But this isn't one of those. Get Real.
Mike Winiberg wrote:
Indeed. But this isn't one of those. Get Real.
I am being real. I use the breadcrumbs a lot to go up more than one level. You may not. That is why they call it a personal computer. What features do you like about Windows 8/8.1?
The report of my death was an exaggeration - Mark Twain
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopes -
Its a shame that people only seem to focus on the UI as a major problem (Don't even see it as a problem) and instead completely ignoring all the other massive benefits to the OS. Such as; Better performance Access to the latest Dev kits for WP8, W8, DX11.2 etc. Almost all the UI is vastly superior, such as windows explorer. No Aero for performance improvements, task manager etc. More secure than 7 Plenty of excellent tools that just don't exist in 7: such as Drive Pooling and local Hyper-V virtual machines! Seriously, Local Hyper-V is a godlike for virtual machines and I think its terrible that hardly anyone even knows about it! I just don't see how with all these major improvements and dozens more that I haven't mentioned, how could people base their decision to nerf their computer life for the sake of having a start menu. (ClassicShell?)
Well said. Now that I do have a start menu in Windows 8.1 I never use it because I got used to just typing the name of the program I want to execute on the start page. It is a lot faster than navigating start button==>all programs. Some people resist learning new ways to do things to their own detriment. :doh:
The report of my death was an exaggeration - Mark Twain
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopes -
to build a Windows 8.1 machine at work. After 5 minutes of using it, I can honestly say I HATE it... with a passion... with extreme prejudice. No wonder this thing is failing in the market.
A guide to posting questions on CodeProject[^]
Dave Kreskowiak -
Really! Advertising no breadcrumbs like that is a feature. :doh: Why not go back to running Windows 3.11 if you want the retro look and feel? :~ I know people are resistant to change but get real. Some changes are for the better.
The report of my death was an exaggeration - Mark Twain
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopes -
to build a Windows 8.1 machine at work. After 5 minutes of using it, I can honestly say I HATE it... with a passion... with extreme prejudice. No wonder this thing is failing in the market.
A guide to posting questions on CodeProject[^]
Dave KreskowiakI was on the same page a while back. I posted a RANT about fighting with it. Here is my take on the various responses you are getting (like mine): 1) Many people have taken the the TIME to learn the "windows 8" way of doing things, they like the OTHER features more than enough to overweight the Learning Curve 2) Some people are doing the same thing, every day with it. That makes it easier. 3) Many have Administrative Rights (one of my issues was trying to help someone copy a file that the OS decided they did not have access to!) I wish there was a 10 minute YouTube video showing us MERE MORTALS how to get our job done, based on being HAPPY with windows 7 (start, search, taskbar launch folder, etc), so we can figure out windows 8. The IDIOCY of having EVERYTHING launch from a Start Button (we got used to), suddenly change without making that transition easier is MIND BOGGLING. Every other version of windows, the upgrade was more "additive". I had to ADD to my knowledge to use the system. But the rest of the system still worked the same. Windows 8 IS NOT THAT WAY! It feels like a RUG PULL. And when you have to install the machine, and you have 30hrs to get 60hrs of work done. And they changed everything, it is FRUSTRATING. I get paid by the HOUR. When it takes me 3hrs to figure out how to do something (or worse, that I cannot do something), that I used to do in 15 seconds. I CANNOT BILL my clients for that time. It just cost me HUGE MONEY. That has been my experience... == TO that end, I contacted a friend of mine. He showed me how to use the annoying right side of the screen and search, plus a couple of other hints, and I LEARNED about the "explorer runs at PEON security levels", so I can get to an administrative command prompt and do what I need there... Which, without the search feature, I still don't know how to run an administrative command prompt in windows 8... LOL So I feel your pain, but I can say that you can overcome it when you stop thinking about how stupid it was for them to make the changes this way, and just deal with the changes made. There are SOME improvements. And I am COUNTING on windows 9 being much better (that is the earliest I will switch, I have learned to ONLY use ODD numbers of Windows products. LOL)
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Dave Kreskowiak wrote:
We buy machines and they come with a Win8 license. The first we do is scrape 'em down to bare metal and slap it with the corporate Win7 load.
..and that's cheaper than a PC without an OS? I mean including the extra work you put in. Aight, so some companies will downgrade their desktops after buying the "special offer"; there'll also be enough that will not have a choice, whatever the reason is - lack in skills, or company-policy.
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
Eddy Vluggen wrote:
Dave Kreskowiak wrote:
We buy machines and they come with a Win8 license. The first we do is scrape 'em down to bare metal and slap it with the corporate Win7 load.
..and that's cheaper than a PC without an OS? I mean including the extra work you put in.
Actually...yes. Enterprise volume licenses for Windows are incremental on top of existing Windows licenses; they can't be used by themselves. Typical corporate purchases of new machines include an OEM license for the least expensive business-class Windows product offered by the manufacturer; once the machine arrives the hard disk is wiped and the corporate VL image is installed. Of course, for some hardware the manufacturer might not offer a Windows client. At my POE a few years ago we bought ~50 low-end servers to provide service quality monitoring across the network. The monitor tool ran on Windows 7 Enterprise, so we bought 50 copies of Vista Business, from which we cut out and saved the COA (to prove ownership of what Microsoft calls the "qualifying license") and threw the rest (including the disks) into the trash. That's more work (and more expensive) than would have been the case had we been able to buy an OEM Windows license as part of the hardware purchase.
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Dave Kreskowiak wrote:
We buy machines and they come with a Win8 license. The first we do is scrape 'em down to bare metal and slap it with the corporate Win7 load.
..and that's cheaper than a PC without an OS? I mean including the extra work you put in. Aight, so some companies will downgrade their desktops after buying the "special offer"; there'll also be enough that will not have a choice, whatever the reason is - lack in skills, or company-policy.
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
You're assuming you can get a machine without an OS. (There for a long time, you couldn't) For myself, when I bought my latest laptop, it had Win8 on it. I removed the hard-drive, swapped in a new hard-drive and slapped Linux Mint on it. :-)
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I was on the same page a while back. I posted a RANT about fighting with it. Here is my take on the various responses you are getting (like mine): 1) Many people have taken the the TIME to learn the "windows 8" way of doing things, they like the OTHER features more than enough to overweight the Learning Curve 2) Some people are doing the same thing, every day with it. That makes it easier. 3) Many have Administrative Rights (one of my issues was trying to help someone copy a file that the OS decided they did not have access to!) I wish there was a 10 minute YouTube video showing us MERE MORTALS how to get our job done, based on being HAPPY with windows 7 (start, search, taskbar launch folder, etc), so we can figure out windows 8. The IDIOCY of having EVERYTHING launch from a Start Button (we got used to), suddenly change without making that transition easier is MIND BOGGLING. Every other version of windows, the upgrade was more "additive". I had to ADD to my knowledge to use the system. But the rest of the system still worked the same. Windows 8 IS NOT THAT WAY! It feels like a RUG PULL. And when you have to install the machine, and you have 30hrs to get 60hrs of work done. And they changed everything, it is FRUSTRATING. I get paid by the HOUR. When it takes me 3hrs to figure out how to do something (or worse, that I cannot do something), that I used to do in 15 seconds. I CANNOT BILL my clients for that time. It just cost me HUGE MONEY. That has been my experience... == TO that end, I contacted a friend of mine. He showed me how to use the annoying right side of the screen and search, plus a couple of other hints, and I LEARNED about the "explorer runs at PEON security levels", so I can get to an administrative command prompt and do what I need there... Which, without the search feature, I still don't know how to run an administrative command prompt in windows 8... LOL So I feel your pain, but I can say that you can overcome it when you stop thinking about how stupid it was for them to make the changes this way, and just deal with the changes made. There are SOME improvements. And I am COUNTING on windows 9 being much better (that is the earliest I will switch, I have learned to ONLY use ODD numbers of Windows products. LOL)
Oh, I didn't say that I couldn't overcome it. I just hate that they moved so much of the cheese that, like you, it takes forever to figure out how to do something that we did in seconds before. I look at it from a support perspective. How many calls is this thing going to generate? Tons. How many people are going to need a class or a "How Do I..." guide to get used to this? Tons. That means money and to a corporation, switching to Windows 8 is more expensive than it was to go from XP to 7. We "techies" usually figure stuff out very quickly. Other people, not so much. Some, not at all! ;)
A guide to posting questions on CodeProject[^]
Dave Kreskowiak -
No, I didn't. I gave it a chance. The Win8 machine I built is in a VM. When you don't have a touch monitor Win8 Modern/Metro is a royal pain in the add to the use with a mouse. Now, we have 8,500+ users. That's a lot of training on how to do things the "Modern" way.
A guide to posting questions on CodeProject[^]
Dave Kreskowiak -
Well said. Now that I do have a start menu in Windows 8.1 I never use it because I got used to just typing the name of the program I want to execute on the start page. It is a lot faster than navigating start button==>all programs. Some people resist learning new ways to do things to their own detriment. :doh:
The report of my death was an exaggeration - Mark Twain
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopescrazy cause I has been doing that search on the star menu since crap Vista!!!! I agree that we can't blame the full OS cause of the UI, since I installed Star8 I'm being comfortable I just avoid the metro UI, only problem I have at this moment is the synaptic gestures, it's a crap that it show the side menus every time I slide my finger to the left and I can't remove that gesture (trust me i tried) I'm very close to uninstall synaptic... But I must tell, there is not to much value in win8 to really need to change from Win7, the repulsion you feel from the metro UI is stronger that the wins. (and honestly I don't see those wins, any 4 cores cpu will work the same)
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Dave Kreskowiak wrote:
with extreme prejudice. No wonder this thing is failing in the market.
200 Million Windows 8 licenses sold is a market failure? Wish I could fail like that. :rolleyes:
Play my game Gravity: Android[^], Windows Phone 7[^]
Quote:
200 Million Windows 8 licenses sold is a market failure? Wish I could fail like that. Roll eyes | :rolleyes:
that doesn't count because they not selling win7 anymore, of course if there is no Win7, new pc will with win8... what would happen if new laptop can come with win8, and also if those new laptops and pcs can allow the installment of win7? normal customers will not downgrade to win7 just because they don't know now if your point is that they are selling, well yes, but its because there is not something else (mac and linux doesn't count, we are in win mode!!!)
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...and some are not! Windows 8 is the best gift Microsoft has ever given Apple. Now those on the fence have a reason to spend the few extra dollars on what also appears to be a much higher quality device without feeling vain about it.
jcoons wrote:
Windows 8 is the best gift Microsoft has ever given Apple. Now those on the fence have a reason to spend the few extra dollars on what also appears to be a much higher quality device without feeling vain about it.
:laugh: You have more dollars than sense.
The report of my death was an exaggeration - Mark Twain
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopes -
to build a Windows 8.1 machine at work. After 5 minutes of using it, I can honestly say I HATE it... with a passion... with extreme prejudice. No wonder this thing is failing in the market.
A guide to posting questions on CodeProject[^]
Dave KreskowiakHa! Try encountering Windows Server 2012 for the first time, in a coms room with a mouse on top of a filing cabinet and a keyboard balanced on your knee. I kind of see the point where they are trying to go with Win8 but how many servers do you know that have touch screens? Trying to get the mouse to hover long enough in the bottom left of the screen to get the start thing up in your average coms room is no fun! I was out at a clients site so had to go and ask their IT guys for a loan of a desktop to RDP on to it. I did like the fact that when I eventually got the start thing up I could just start typing the program I needed to open it but why not just have that interface up all the time? Even a button instead of this hover your mouse it the bottom left corner and hover your mouse over in the right hand side crap