So the GM ignition switch issue in the US
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W∴ Balboos wrote:
Pinto
Different issue. The pinto actually contributed to/caused death, lack of air bags is a failure to stop death.
W∴ Balboos wrote:
Imagine if you or I allowed a deliberately dangerous condition to persist
Lack of airbags is not a dangerous condition any more than cars themselves are dangerous, and I mean that literally, not glibly. A dangerous condition would be an overhanging tree that is known to be about to fall, and is left, or a building. These are the causes of death. In a car crash the cause of death is the driver, or the another driver. The lack of airbags is not the cause of death. So, is someone responsible for not preventing?
"The whole idea that carbon dioxide is the main cause of the recent global warming is based on a guess that was proved false by empirical evidence during the 1990s." climate-models-go-cold
Well - that then implies that anything which you can get away with is OK, so long as it doesn't show under normal usage. No more real safety glass in the windows. Only important, as with airbags, in the event of an impact. Hell. Get rid of the fuse box, too. It's only useful if you overload a circuit. Or, at least, use 50-Amp minimum fuses so that they don't blow. Only overloading the circuit will damage the equipment or start a fire. Not just cars. In your home, too. And don't worry if the circuit's grounded - it's not part of the real circuit (that's the common's job) - so you don't really need one unless there's a problem or you do something wrong. Relying upon safety equipment? What a waste of time! You shouldn't need it, anyway. And if you do, it didn't do anything wrong - it just didn't prevent any problems.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"As far as we know, our computer has never had an undetected error." - Weisert
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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Apparently the air bags didn't go off due to a failure in the switch and 300 people died. Now, question, is it mandatory for a manufacturer to fit air bags in their cars? Did the air bags gong off kill the people or was it the fact they crashed, die to their own, or someone elses bad driving? Can GM be held responsible for the death by failing to prevent it, rather than causing it? Of so, how many of the rest of us can be held responsible by failing to prevent a death? You see a guy jumping off a bridge, you fail to prevent him, are you now a murderer? I don't see GM as being guilty of anything more than trade descriptions act, their goods didn't act as advertised. That's all.
"The whole idea that carbon dioxide is the main cause of the recent global warming is based on a guess that was proved false by empirical evidence during the 1990s." climate-models-go-cold
They're guilty of not fixing a known issue with a required component intended to reduce the number of fatalities from accidents. At the very least they're down for knowing shoddy compliance with airbag laws. I'd be really surprised if they were actually found guilty of the deaths, and far more likely those deaths will be used as justification for inflating the penalties assessed for failure to comply with the law as it's unknowable how many are their fault. Still, if you make something and your safety features don't work you're going to get a civil suit even if you didn't know about it. If you know about it you deserve every last bit of it.
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Well - that then implies that anything which you can get away with is OK, so long as it doesn't show under normal usage. No more real safety glass in the windows. Only important, as with airbags, in the event of an impact. Hell. Get rid of the fuse box, too. It's only useful if you overload a circuit. Or, at least, use 50-Amp minimum fuses so that they don't blow. Only overloading the circuit will damage the equipment or start a fire. Not just cars. In your home, too. And don't worry if the circuit's grounded - it's not part of the real circuit (that's the common's job) - so you don't really need one unless there's a problem or you do something wrong. Relying upon safety equipment? What a waste of time! You shouldn't need it, anyway. And if you do, it didn't do anything wrong - it just didn't prevent any problems.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"As far as we know, our computer has never had an undetected error." - Weisert
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
And where did I say airbags should be removed from cars? If you want to have that argument, go find someone who made that statement.
"The whole idea that carbon dioxide is the main cause of the recent global warming is based on a guess that was proved false by empirical evidence during the 1990s." climate-models-go-cold
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They're guilty of not fixing a known issue with a required component intended to reduce the number of fatalities from accidents. At the very least they're down for knowing shoddy compliance with airbag laws. I'd be really surprised if they were actually found guilty of the deaths, and far more likely those deaths will be used as justification for inflating the penalties assessed for failure to comply with the law as it's unknowable how many are their fault. Still, if you make something and your safety features don't work you're going to get a civil suit even if you didn't know about it. If you know about it you deserve every last bit of it.
Quite, yet to hear the way the media is going on about it...
"The whole idea that carbon dioxide is the main cause of the recent global warming is based on a guess that was proved false by empirical evidence during the 1990s." climate-models-go-cold
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The wheel is the cause of the accident though. The air bag isn't. That's the difference.
"The whole idea that carbon dioxide is the main cause of the recent global warming is based on a guess that was proved false by empirical evidence during the 1990s." climate-models-go-cold
The airbag should have deployed as required by law and it didn't. It may have saved the lives lost and possibly reduced injury in other accidents. The point isn't how many people died, it's that the company knew a required feature didn't work and did nothing to fix it. That's what they'll be held liable for.
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The wheel is the cause of the accident though. The air bag isn't. That's the difference.
"The whole idea that carbon dioxide is the main cause of the recent global warming is based on a guess that was proved false by empirical evidence during the 1990s." climate-models-go-cold
I disagree - the wheel was the instrument of the accident: the first symptom. The cause was the negligence in failing to tighten the wheel nuts.
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it. --- George Santayana (December 16, 1863 – September 26, 1952) Those who fail to clear history are doomed to explain it. --- OriginalGriff (February 24, 1959 – ∞)
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Quite, yet to hear the way the media is going on about it...
"The whole idea that carbon dioxide is the main cause of the recent global warming is based on a guess that was proved false by empirical evidence during the 1990s." climate-models-go-cold
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I disagree - the wheel was the instrument of the accident: the first symptom. The cause was the negligence in failing to tighten the wheel nuts.
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it. --- George Santayana (December 16, 1863 – September 26, 1952) Those who fail to clear history are doomed to explain it. --- OriginalGriff (February 24, 1959 – ∞)
That's what I meant,, yes.
"The whole idea that carbon dioxide is the main cause of the recent global warming is based on a guess that was proved false by empirical evidence during the 1990s." climate-models-go-cold
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Apparently the air bags didn't go off due to a failure in the switch and 300 people died. Now, question, is it mandatory for a manufacturer to fit air bags in their cars? Did the air bags gong off kill the people or was it the fact they crashed, die to their own, or someone elses bad driving? Can GM be held responsible for the death by failing to prevent it, rather than causing it? Of so, how many of the rest of us can be held responsible by failing to prevent a death? You see a guy jumping off a bridge, you fail to prevent him, are you now a murderer? I don't see GM as being guilty of anything more than trade descriptions act, their goods didn't act as advertised. That's all.
"The whole idea that carbon dioxide is the main cause of the recent global warming is based on a guess that was proved false by empirical evidence during the 1990s." climate-models-go-cold
The actual condition was that the switch could easily be turned off (bad detent - too easy to turn it off). This happened if you had a heavy load of junk hanging off of the key chain, and hit a bump in the road, or bumped it with your knee. This turned off the ignition, which also turned off the air bags. The loss of the engine power caused the loss of the power steering and the driver lost control of the car (my guess he was trying to determine what had happened and was not looking at the road). When the car ran off of the road and crashed into a tree, the airbags did not deploy. I read some reports that some people did recover by turning the key on again which re-enabled the air bags, some actually re-started the engine and totally recovered, others crashed but were saved by the re-enabled airbags. Dave.
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Apparently the air bags didn't go off due to a failure in the switch and 300 people died. Now, question, is it mandatory for a manufacturer to fit air bags in their cars? Did the air bags gong off kill the people or was it the fact they crashed, die to their own, or someone elses bad driving? Can GM be held responsible for the death by failing to prevent it, rather than causing it? Of so, how many of the rest of us can be held responsible by failing to prevent a death? You see a guy jumping off a bridge, you fail to prevent him, are you now a murderer? I don't see GM as being guilty of anything more than trade descriptions act, their goods didn't act as advertised. That's all.
"The whole idea that carbon dioxide is the main cause of the recent global warming is based on a guess that was proved false by empirical evidence during the 1990s." climate-models-go-cold
Just to add, I disagree with airbags and seatbelts - they should be banned for drivers, and replaced with a six-inch long razor sharp knife in the middle of the steering wheel together with a sign that says "in the event of an accident, you will die". You will lose a lot of morons in the first few months, but the roads would be a lot, lot safer after that! :laugh:
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it. --- George Santayana (December 16, 1863 – September 26, 1952) Those who fail to clear history are doomed to explain it. --- OriginalGriff (February 24, 1959 – ∞)
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And where did I say airbags should be removed from cars? If you want to have that argument, go find someone who made that statement.
"The whole idea that carbon dioxide is the main cause of the recent global warming is based on a guess that was proved false by empirical evidence during the 1990s." climate-models-go-cold
Munchies_Matt wrote:
And where did I say airbags should be removed from cars?
From the Post I replied to:
In a car crash the cause of death is the driver, or the another driver. The lack of airbags is not the cause of death. So, is someone responsible for not preventing?
The clear implication is that if the device is defective it still didn't cause the problem and therefore there's no responsibility. I point out how there is, indeed, responsibility, by giving examples and "running with them" to where they lead.
A defective device is worse than no device.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"As far as we know, our computer has never had an undetected error." - Weisert
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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The actual condition was that the switch could easily be turned off (bad detent - too easy to turn it off). This happened if you had a heavy load of junk hanging off of the key chain, and hit a bump in the road, or bumped it with your knee. This turned off the ignition, which also turned off the air bags. The loss of the engine power caused the loss of the power steering and the driver lost control of the car (my guess he was trying to determine what had happened and was not looking at the road). When the car ran off of the road and crashed into a tree, the airbags did not deploy. I read some reports that some people did recover by turning the key on again which re-enabled the air bags, some actually re-started the engine and totally recovered, others crashed but were saved by the re-enabled airbags. Dave.
Ahhh, I see. Well that makes it even less GMs fault. Clearly the ignition switch turning force is not mandated by law and thus any misuse (by hanging iPods etc off it) is the responsibility of the user. What is the expected, usual, reasonable, amount of stuff to have on a key chain? Clearly, this 300 exceeded that so it is their fault. The switch is NOT designed for this, and so GM are guilt free.
"The whole idea that carbon dioxide is the main cause of the recent global warming is based on a guess that was proved false by empirical evidence during the 1990s." climate-models-go-cold
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Just to add, I disagree with airbags and seatbelts - they should be banned for drivers, and replaced with a six-inch long razor sharp knife in the middle of the steering wheel together with a sign that says "in the event of an accident, you will die". You will lose a lot of morons in the first few months, but the roads would be a lot, lot safer after that! :laugh:
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it. --- George Santayana (December 16, 1863 – September 26, 1952) Those who fail to clear history are doomed to explain it. --- OriginalGriff (February 24, 1959 – ∞)
That is, sadly, the case. People are idiots.
"The whole idea that carbon dioxide is the main cause of the recent global warming is based on a guess that was proved false by empirical evidence during the 1990s." climate-models-go-cold
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W∴ Balboos wrote:
Pinto
Different issue. The pinto actually contributed to/caused death, lack of air bags is a failure to stop death.
W∴ Balboos wrote:
Imagine if you or I allowed a deliberately dangerous condition to persist
Lack of airbags is not a dangerous condition any more than cars themselves are dangerous, and I mean that literally, not glibly. A dangerous condition would be an overhanging tree that is known to be about to fall, and is left, or a building. These are the causes of death. In a car crash the cause of death is the driver, or the another driver. The lack of airbags is not the cause of death. So, is someone responsible for not preventing?
"The whole idea that carbon dioxide is the main cause of the recent global warming is based on a guess that was proved false by empirical evidence during the 1990s." climate-models-go-cold
Didn't they take some of that responsibility when they decided to create a car that is by law forced to have an airbag as security device? They may not be the cause of death, but they have their share in it.
Munchies_Matt wrote:
So, is someone responsible for not preventing?
Actually, kinda, yes. There is a law for everyone to provide assistance to a person in peril ("duty to rescue", "failure to provide assistance", etc. [^]). You can get punished if you just walk away. That may not be the case in the US (I didn't check ;)) but it is in many european countries. If you don't provide help and that person dies, you are still responsible for not having tried to prevent the death (You may not be accused of murder etc. but still you have that responsibility). For me a car componay that refuses to replace non-functioning airbags because "it would cost them more" or "because they didn't got time for that" or whatever other reason, sounds like a person walking away from a person that is seriously wounded.
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Munchies_Matt wrote:
And where did I say airbags should be removed from cars?
From the Post I replied to:
In a car crash the cause of death is the driver, or the another driver. The lack of airbags is not the cause of death. So, is someone responsible for not preventing?
The clear implication is that if the device is defective it still didn't cause the problem and therefore there's no responsibility. I point out how there is, indeed, responsibility, by giving examples and "running with them" to where they lead.
A defective device is worse than no device.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"As far as we know, our computer has never had an undetected error." - Weisert
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
W∴ Balboos wrote:
In a car crash the cause of death is the driver, or the another driver. The lack of airbags is not the cause of death.
So, is someone responsible for not preventing?
Does not say 'air bags should be removed' And perhaps you should read this. http://www.codeproject.com/Lounge.aspx?msg=4797055#xx4797055xx[^] People hung so much junk off their keys that it turned off the ignition while driving. Now, that's GMs fault is it?
"The whole idea that carbon dioxide is the main cause of the recent global warming is based on a guess that was proved false by empirical evidence during the 1990s." climate-models-go-cold
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Just to add, I disagree with airbags and seatbelts - they should be banned for drivers, and replaced with a six-inch long razor sharp knife in the middle of the steering wheel together with a sign that says "in the event of an accident, you will die". You will lose a lot of morons in the first few months, but the roads would be a lot, lot safer after that! :laugh:
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it. --- George Santayana (December 16, 1863 – September 26, 1952) Those who fail to clear history are doomed to explain it. --- OriginalGriff (February 24, 1959 – ∞)
-
Apparently the air bags didn't go off due to a failure in the switch and 300 people died. Now, question, is it mandatory for a manufacturer to fit air bags in their cars? Did the air bags gong off kill the people or was it the fact they crashed, die to their own, or someone elses bad driving? Can GM be held responsible for the death by failing to prevent it, rather than causing it? Of so, how many of the rest of us can be held responsible by failing to prevent a death? You see a guy jumping off a bridge, you fail to prevent him, are you now a murderer? I don't see GM as being guilty of anything more than trade descriptions act, their goods didn't act as advertised. That's all.
"The whole idea that carbon dioxide is the main cause of the recent global warming is based on a guess that was proved false by empirical evidence during the 1990s." climate-models-go-cold
From NBCNews[^] The recall was first announced in mid-February when GM said the ignition switches on nearly 800,000 vehicles could inadvertently turn off while being driven, stalling the engine and disabling power steering and brakes, and disabling the vehicle airbag system. I heard the switch costs 59 cents and the problem could definitely cause an accident.
!bVagadishnu
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Didn't they take some of that responsibility when they decided to create a car that is by law forced to have an airbag as security device? They may not be the cause of death, but they have their share in it.
Munchies_Matt wrote:
So, is someone responsible for not preventing?
Actually, kinda, yes. There is a law for everyone to provide assistance to a person in peril ("duty to rescue", "failure to provide assistance", etc. [^]). You can get punished if you just walk away. That may not be the case in the US (I didn't check ;)) but it is in many european countries. If you don't provide help and that person dies, you are still responsible for not having tried to prevent the death (You may not be accused of murder etc. but still you have that responsibility). For me a car componay that refuses to replace non-functioning airbags because "it would cost them more" or "because they didn't got time for that" or whatever other reason, sounds like a person walking away from a person that is seriously wounded.
Nicholas Marty wrote:
That may not be the case in the US
Nor the UK. If some twat wants to jump of a bridge we start taking bets about how big a mess he will make. But we are cynical, hard bastards in the UK. :) (When David Blane did his 'how long can I live in a Perspex box suspended 20 ft off the ground without food or water' in London a few years back, people turned up with camping stoves and started cooking bacon right underneath him. Some others turned up with golf clubs and hit balls at his box. Got to love the British sense of taking the piss....:)
"The whole idea that carbon dioxide is the main cause of the recent global warming is based on a guess that was proved false by empirical evidence during the 1990s." climate-models-go-cold
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From NBCNews[^] The recall was first announced in mid-February when GM said the ignition switches on nearly 800,000 vehicles could inadvertently turn off while being driven, stalling the engine and disabling power steering and brakes, and disabling the vehicle airbag system. I heard the switch costs 59 cents and the problem could definitely cause an accident.
!bVagadishnu
Apparently only if excessive stuff is hung off the key. Is that normal use?
"The whole idea that carbon dioxide is the main cause of the recent global warming is based on a guess that was proved false by empirical evidence during the 1990s." climate-models-go-cold
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Only in the case that the idiot driver is causing the accident himself. But way too often they kill someone who did nothing wrong :~
Yes, you'd lose some innocents in the early days. But...you'd also lose all the idiots of that generation, and the following generation would know beyond a shadow of a doubt that a car is a lethal weapon. And the standard of driving would improve. True story: in introduction of seat belt laws in the UK caused more deaths than it saved - because people felt safer and the accidents were bigger, so when people died it was at the scene rather than in a hospital. And so their organs were useless for transplants...it's called "risk compensation" theory. Have a google: there is a large body of evidence that seatbelts don't even save many lives of drivers per year!
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it. --- George Santayana (December 16, 1863 – September 26, 1952) Those who fail to clear history are doomed to explain it. --- OriginalGriff (February 24, 1959 – ∞)
