So the GM ignition switch issue in the US
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Didn't they take some of that responsibility when they decided to create a car that is by law forced to have an airbag as security device? They may not be the cause of death, but they have their share in it.
Munchies_Matt wrote:
So, is someone responsible for not preventing?
Actually, kinda, yes. There is a law for everyone to provide assistance to a person in peril ("duty to rescue", "failure to provide assistance", etc. [^]). You can get punished if you just walk away. That may not be the case in the US (I didn't check ;)) but it is in many european countries. If you don't provide help and that person dies, you are still responsible for not having tried to prevent the death (You may not be accused of murder etc. but still you have that responsibility). For me a car componay that refuses to replace non-functioning airbags because "it would cost them more" or "because they didn't got time for that" or whatever other reason, sounds like a person walking away from a person that is seriously wounded.
Nicholas Marty wrote:
That may not be the case in the US
Nor the UK. If some twat wants to jump of a bridge we start taking bets about how big a mess he will make. But we are cynical, hard bastards in the UK. :) (When David Blane did his 'how long can I live in a Perspex box suspended 20 ft off the ground without food or water' in London a few years back, people turned up with camping stoves and started cooking bacon right underneath him. Some others turned up with golf clubs and hit balls at his box. Got to love the British sense of taking the piss....:)
"The whole idea that carbon dioxide is the main cause of the recent global warming is based on a guess that was proved false by empirical evidence during the 1990s." climate-models-go-cold
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From NBCNews[^] The recall was first announced in mid-February when GM said the ignition switches on nearly 800,000 vehicles could inadvertently turn off while being driven, stalling the engine and disabling power steering and brakes, and disabling the vehicle airbag system. I heard the switch costs 59 cents and the problem could definitely cause an accident.
!bVagadishnu
Apparently only if excessive stuff is hung off the key. Is that normal use?
"The whole idea that carbon dioxide is the main cause of the recent global warming is based on a guess that was proved false by empirical evidence during the 1990s." climate-models-go-cold
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Only in the case that the idiot driver is causing the accident himself. But way too often they kill someone who did nothing wrong :~
Yes, you'd lose some innocents in the early days. But...you'd also lose all the idiots of that generation, and the following generation would know beyond a shadow of a doubt that a car is a lethal weapon. And the standard of driving would improve. True story: in introduction of seat belt laws in the UK caused more deaths than it saved - because people felt safer and the accidents were bigger, so when people died it was at the scene rather than in a hospital. And so their organs were useless for transplants...it's called "risk compensation" theory. Have a google: there is a large body of evidence that seatbelts don't even save many lives of drivers per year!
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it. --- George Santayana (December 16, 1863 – September 26, 1952) Those who fail to clear history are doomed to explain it. --- OriginalGriff (February 24, 1959 – ∞)
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Apparently the air bags didn't go off due to a failure in the switch and 300 people died. Now, question, is it mandatory for a manufacturer to fit air bags in their cars? Did the air bags gong off kill the people or was it the fact they crashed, die to their own, or someone elses bad driving? Can GM be held responsible for the death by failing to prevent it, rather than causing it? Of so, how many of the rest of us can be held responsible by failing to prevent a death? You see a guy jumping off a bridge, you fail to prevent him, are you now a murderer? I don't see GM as being guilty of anything more than trade descriptions act, their goods didn't act as advertised. That's all.
"The whole idea that carbon dioxide is the main cause of the recent global warming is based on a guess that was proved false by empirical evidence during the 1990s." climate-models-go-cold
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Yes, you'd lose some innocents in the early days. But...you'd also lose all the idiots of that generation, and the following generation would know beyond a shadow of a doubt that a car is a lethal weapon. And the standard of driving would improve. True story: in introduction of seat belt laws in the UK caused more deaths than it saved - because people felt safer and the accidents were bigger, so when people died it was at the scene rather than in a hospital. And so their organs were useless for transplants...it's called "risk compensation" theory. Have a google: there is a large body of evidence that seatbelts don't even save many lives of drivers per year!
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it. --- George Santayana (December 16, 1863 – September 26, 1952) Those who fail to clear history are doomed to explain it. --- OriginalGriff (February 24, 1959 – ∞)
About that story: I hear in russia you're statistically more likely to survive an accident if you don't wear a seatbelt, albeit you have to by law. Most often they just pretend to wear them (not putting them in), so they are "safer" :~. But that's a story I read in the newspaper some time back around the events unfolding at Sochi.
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Apparently the air bags didn't go off due to a failure in the switch and 300 people died. Now, question, is it mandatory for a manufacturer to fit air bags in their cars? Did the air bags gong off kill the people or was it the fact they crashed, die to their own, or someone elses bad driving? Can GM be held responsible for the death by failing to prevent it, rather than causing it? Of so, how many of the rest of us can be held responsible by failing to prevent a death? You see a guy jumping off a bridge, you fail to prevent him, are you now a murderer? I don't see GM as being guilty of anything more than trade descriptions act, their goods didn't act as advertised. That's all.
"The whole idea that carbon dioxide is the main cause of the recent global warming is based on a guess that was proved false by empirical evidence during the 1990s." climate-models-go-cold
Munchies_Matt wrote:
Now, question, is it mandatory for a manufacturer to fit air bags in their cars
I believe it should be mandatory for them to work if they are fitted. The problem is that the car can switch off mid drive, which of course also shuts off power steering, power assisted brakes and ABS at the same time as well as the air bags. And the amount of power assist nowadays is so much that people believes the steering has jammed and the brakes don't work. So they crash.
Wrong is evil and must be defeated. - Jeff Ello[^]
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Interesting that Guberment sold last of it's share just about 4 months ago, then a suite is filed, was it a government agency that filed suite?
Insider trading anyone... Its a joke isn't it.
"The whole idea that carbon dioxide is the main cause of the recent global warming is based on a guess that was proved false by empirical evidence during the 1990s." climate-models-go-cold
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Munchies_Matt wrote:
Now, question, is it mandatory for a manufacturer to fit air bags in their cars
I believe it should be mandatory for them to work if they are fitted. The problem is that the car can switch off mid drive, which of course also shuts off power steering, power assisted brakes and ABS at the same time as well as the air bags. And the amount of power assist nowadays is so much that people believes the steering has jammed and the brakes don't work. So they crash.
Wrong is evil and must be defeated. - Jeff Ello[^]
Read this: http://www.codeproject.com/Lounge.aspx?msg=4797055#xx4797055xx[^] They did work, its just that people hung so much junk off the ignition key it turned it off, locking the wheel, losing power tp the brakes, and turning off airbags. Yet I don't see them being sued for defective brakes or steering. Obviously its the users who are at fault.
"The whole idea that carbon dioxide is the main cause of the recent global warming is based on a guess that was proved false by empirical evidence during the 1990s." climate-models-go-cold
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Apparently only if excessive stuff is hung off the key. Is that normal use?
"The whole idea that carbon dioxide is the main cause of the recent global warming is based on a guess that was proved false by empirical evidence during the 1990s." climate-models-go-cold
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Read this: http://www.codeproject.com/Lounge.aspx?msg=4797055#xx4797055xx[^] They did work, its just that people hung so much junk off the ignition key it turned it off, locking the wheel, losing power tp the brakes, and turning off airbags. Yet I don't see them being sued for defective brakes or steering. Obviously its the users who are at fault.
"The whole idea that carbon dioxide is the main cause of the recent global warming is based on a guess that was proved false by empirical evidence during the 1990s." climate-models-go-cold
Yes, I've read about it, but that's apparently not always the case, I'll post a link if I can find it back.
Wrong is evil and must be defeated. - Jeff Ello[^]
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Ferd Really wrote:
Depends on what you call excessive.
80000 of these switches out there, 300 dead. I would say that the average person clearly didn't hang too much, so clearly the 300 that died did.
"The whole idea that carbon dioxide is the main cause of the recent global warming is based on a guess that was proved false by empirical evidence during the 1990s." climate-models-go-cold
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W∴ Balboos wrote:
Pinto
Different issue. The pinto actually contributed to/caused death, lack of air bags is a failure to stop death.
W∴ Balboos wrote:
Imagine if you or I allowed a deliberately dangerous condition to persist
Lack of airbags is not a dangerous condition any more than cars themselves are dangerous, and I mean that literally, not glibly. A dangerous condition would be an overhanging tree that is known to be about to fall, and is left, or a building. These are the causes of death. In a car crash the cause of death is the driver, or the another driver. The lack of airbags is not the cause of death. So, is someone responsible for not preventing?
"The whole idea that carbon dioxide is the main cause of the recent global warming is based on a guess that was proved false by empirical evidence during the 1990s." climate-models-go-cold
the issue is far greater than just air bags. they installed an ignition switch that was known to be prone to switching the car off, while the car was in motion. in this state all power systems (power steering, brakes, air bags, etc) would shut off, leaving the user struggling to control the vehicle. the deaths in question happened because cars that were already out of control because of this problem ended up colliding with something, and then the airbags also failed to go off.
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Ahhh, I see. Well that makes it even less GMs fault. Clearly the ignition switch turning force is not mandated by law and thus any misuse (by hanging iPods etc off it) is the responsibility of the user. What is the expected, usual, reasonable, amount of stuff to have on a key chain? Clearly, this 300 exceeded that so it is their fault. The switch is NOT designed for this, and so GM are guilt free.
"The whole idea that carbon dioxide is the main cause of the recent global warming is based on a guess that was proved false by empirical evidence during the 1990s." climate-models-go-cold
Munchies_Matt wrote:
Well that makes it even less GMs fault.
the ignition switch was unable to stand up to normal use, and GM knew it; this is most certainly GM's fault.
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Munchies_Matt wrote:
Well that makes it even less GMs fault.
the ignition switch was unable to stand up to normal use, and GM knew it; this is most certainly GM's fault.
If it wasn't able to stand up to normal use then far more of the 80000 sold would be affected, since normal, by definition, will be the average. I see this as people in the US thinking they can hang an iPod off their key and not think it might cause it to turn.
"The whole idea that carbon dioxide is the main cause of the recent global warming is based on a guess that was proved false by empirical evidence during the 1990s." climate-models-go-cold
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Apparently the air bags didn't go off due to a failure in the switch and 300 people died. Now, question, is it mandatory for a manufacturer to fit air bags in their cars? Did the air bags gong off kill the people or was it the fact they crashed, die to their own, or someone elses bad driving? Can GM be held responsible for the death by failing to prevent it, rather than causing it? Of so, how many of the rest of us can be held responsible by failing to prevent a death? You see a guy jumping off a bridge, you fail to prevent him, are you now a murderer? I don't see GM as being guilty of anything more than trade descriptions act, their goods didn't act as advertised. That's all.
"The whole idea that carbon dioxide is the main cause of the recent global warming is based on a guess that was proved false by empirical evidence during the 1990s." climate-models-go-cold
I think that if you supply safety equipment that is supposed to reduce the harm caused in a bad situation, and your equipment is defective so that it doesn't do that, then yes, you are in part responsible for that harm. GM aren't the only responsible party here – a vehicle crash is caused by human error or some other component failure, not an airbag failing to inflate. However, someone dying because they were in a situation for which their safety equipment was designed, but it didn't work, wouldn't have died if that equipment wasn't broken. So almost all of those 300 were killed by a combination of whatever caused the accident in the first place, and GM's airbags not working.
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I think that if you supply safety equipment that is supposed to reduce the harm caused in a bad situation, and your equipment is defective so that it doesn't do that, then yes, you are in part responsible for that harm. GM aren't the only responsible party here – a vehicle crash is caused by human error or some other component failure, not an airbag failing to inflate. However, someone dying because they were in a situation for which their safety equipment was designed, but it didn't work, wouldn't have died if that equipment wasn't broken. So almost all of those 300 were killed by a combination of whatever caused the accident in the first place, and GM's airbags not working.
BobJanova wrote:
you are in part responsible for that harm
Yeah, this is my position too.
"The whole idea that carbon dioxide is the main cause of the recent global warming is based on a guess that was proved false by empirical evidence during the 1990s." climate-models-go-cold
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Apparently the air bags didn't go off due to a failure in the switch and 300 people died. Now, question, is it mandatory for a manufacturer to fit air bags in their cars? Did the air bags gong off kill the people or was it the fact they crashed, die to their own, or someone elses bad driving? Can GM be held responsible for the death by failing to prevent it, rather than causing it? Of so, how many of the rest of us can be held responsible by failing to prevent a death? You see a guy jumping off a bridge, you fail to prevent him, are you now a murderer? I don't see GM as being guilty of anything more than trade descriptions act, their goods didn't act as advertised. That's all.
"The whole idea that carbon dioxide is the main cause of the recent global warming is based on a guess that was proved false by empirical evidence during the 1990s." climate-models-go-cold
Munchies_Matt wrote:
their goods didn't act as advertised.
One could state that, and one would be wrong. The product should at least do what it was designed for. And no, it's not the airbag-manufacturer that sold the car; the customer does not deal with subcontractors. Hehe, imagine a parachute or a nuke "not working as advertised". Due to a subcontractors fault :laugh:
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
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If it wasn't able to stand up to normal use then far more of the 80000 sold would be affected, since normal, by definition, will be the average. I see this as people in the US thinking they can hang an iPod off their key and not think it might cause it to turn.
"The whole idea that carbon dioxide is the main cause of the recent global warming is based on a guess that was proved false by empirical evidence during the 1990s." climate-models-go-cold
the fact that other cars do not suffer from the same problem is the evidence that these cars have defective parts. or, maybe there's something special about the people who bought this particular model of car that makes them more likely to do one of the following: A) to have exceptionally heavy keychains B) to nudge the ignition with their knees in ways no other driers do C) to drive over exactly the right kind of bumps that would disable a car's ignition for some unknown sociological reason, people who exhibit one or more of those conditions chose to buy this particular car over all others. if you can prove that's what happening, GM would probably love to know about it. because they seem to think they knowingly put out a car with a defective part.
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the fact that other cars do not suffer from the same problem is the evidence that these cars have defective parts. or, maybe there's something special about the people who bought this particular model of car that makes them more likely to do one of the following: A) to have exceptionally heavy keychains B) to nudge the ignition with their knees in ways no other driers do C) to drive over exactly the right kind of bumps that would disable a car's ignition for some unknown sociological reason, people who exhibit one or more of those conditions chose to buy this particular car over all others. if you can prove that's what happening, GM would probably love to know about it. because they seem to think they knowingly put out a car with a defective part.
Whats the car affected? Could be its an SUV, and has more space to hang junk off the key, in a saloon its gong to bash your knee all the time. Whats clear is that its not as black and white as the media, and radio, is putting out. Perhaps GM should have put out an ad to say ' don't hang junk off your key, it can turn the ignition off while driving'. Of course perhaps that's obvious....
"The whole idea that carbon dioxide is the main cause of the recent global warming is based on a guess that was proved false by empirical evidence during the 1990s." climate-models-go-cold
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Whats the car affected? Could be its an SUV, and has more space to hang junk off the key, in a saloon its gong to bash your knee all the time. Whats clear is that its not as black and white as the media, and radio, is putting out. Perhaps GM should have put out an ad to say ' don't hang junk off your key, it can turn the ignition off while driving'. Of course perhaps that's obvious....
"The whole idea that carbon dioxide is the main cause of the recent global warming is based on a guess that was proved false by empirical evidence during the 1990s." climate-models-go-cold
Chevrolet: Cobalt 2005-2010, HHR 2006-2011 Pontiac: G5 2005-2010, Solstice 2006-2010 Saturn: Ion 2003-2007, Sky 2007-2010
Munchies_Matt wrote:
Perhaps GM should have put out an ad to say ' don't hang junk off your key, it can turn the ignition off while driving'.
perhaps they should just spend the $.75 and fix the friggin problem.
