Homework in QA
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Since when did asking a homework question in QA become so frowned upon? I agree when someone has not shown any effort that it can be hard to help them and I personally don't want to write all the code for them; however, too often I see people jump to the conclusion that if it is homework they don't deserve help. Whether it is homework, regular work, or hobby if someone asks a question they should all be treated the same. Help if you can.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
Easy. When the responders started giving away the answers, giving the OP, literally, "copy'n'paste this code" answers. Is the OP going to learn from having their code written for them? Absolutely not.
A guide to posting questions on CodeProject
How to debug small programs
Dave Kreskowiak -
Easy. When the responders started giving away the answers, giving the OP, literally, "copy'n'paste this code" answers. Is the OP going to learn from having their code written for them? Absolutely not.
A guide to posting questions on CodeProject
How to debug small programs
Dave KreskowiakQuote:
Is the OP going to learn from having their code written for them? Absolutely not.
My point was that when someone does show effort if it looks like homework often the first response is to attack. It shouldn't be that way.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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Quote:
Is the OP going to learn from having their code written for them? Absolutely not.
My point was that when someone does show effort if it looks like homework often the first response is to attack. It shouldn't be that way.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
I've seen a ton of homework questions. Rarely have I seen the effort put in by the OP, but I'm happy to see it when it's there. I still won't give a code answer, but I will tell the person where they are going wrong and what they should be looking at/researching. But, of course, there's a bunch of people who don't understand the difference between effort and the lack thereof and just attack anyway. I don't see that too much, but when I do that person gets attacked. But, much more prevelent is the problem where the responders just give the answer in code without discussing what's going on or why. I think it's more of an exposition of the responders ability to answer such simple questions than it is of helping the person out or teaching them how to do the research to answer their own question. It's these people I just cannot stand.
A guide to posting questions on CodeProject
How to debug small programs
Dave Kreskowiak -
Since when did asking a homework question in QA become so frowned upon? I agree when someone has not shown any effort that it can be hard to help them and I personally don't want to write all the code for them; however, too often I see people jump to the conclusion that if it is homework they don't deserve help. Whether it is homework, regular work, or hobby if someone asks a question they should all be treated the same. Help if you can.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
Agree wholeheartedly with you on this one. Any question asked should be treated essentially the same; if the OP asks for help, why not give it? If responding to a guru or a novice, surely the skill in answering is to not just provide the answer, but some framework so the OP understands - which at the end of the day is what it's all about whether for a student or expert. Sure, some posts will just be "please give me code to ..." but whether for homework or the next big thing in mobile apps, the response needs to be guidance toward the goal, and not just the solution on a platter. When I have taught programming I actively encourage the students to look for help online if they are stuck; I usually guide them where to look, and monitor those resources and respond myself when I can - but it is astonishing how one can explain something twenty ways to a blank-faced student, then someone else (as often as not another student) can say "It's like, you know, when that thing gets bigger, and like the other thing, you know?" and the original student's face lights up with understanding!
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Asking a question is fine: but I do draw the line when they post the actual homework question (complete with the question numbers, and the date it is due to be handed in occasionally) and ask for code! We even had one who posted his tutors email so we could send the solution directly for him... :doh: No, actually I draw the line before that. If you try and get stuck, that's one thing. If you try and get us to do it for you without making any effort at all, that's another. And the geniuses that think we can't tell a homework question from a work project...I think they are in for a real shock when they find out that a real project is rather more than a 100 lines of code for a hotel booking simulator! Why should I do their work for them? If I get them through their course I could end up sitting next to them and having to do their work then as well! :wtf:
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it. --- George Santayana (December 16, 1863 – September 26, 1952) Those who fail to clear history are doomed to explain it. --- OriginalGriff (February 24, 1959 – ∞)
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I've seen a ton of homework questions. Rarely have I seen the effort put in by the OP, but I'm happy to see it when it's there. I still won't give a code answer, but I will tell the person where they are going wrong and what they should be looking at/researching. But, of course, there's a bunch of people who don't understand the difference between effort and the lack thereof and just attack anyway. I don't see that too much, but when I do that person gets attacked. But, much more prevelent is the problem where the responders just give the answer in code without discussing what's going on or why. I think it's more of an exposition of the responders ability to answer such simple questions than it is of helping the person out or teaching them how to do the research to answer their own question. It's these people I just cannot stand.
A guide to posting questions on CodeProject
How to debug small programs
Dave KreskowiakDave Kreskowiak wrote:
I still won't give a code answer,
You and me both. I prefer to point them in the direction they need to go and let them get there themselves... What I really hate is when I am doing that, and someone else comes in and posts a full code block...
Quad skating his way through the world since the early 80's... Booger Mobile - My bright green 1964 Ford Falcon - check out the blog here!! | If you feel generous - make a donation to Camp Quality!!
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Quote:
Because the usual idea of homework is not to produce a solution per se but to learn how to produce a solution.
I'm not disagreeing but isn't that the same for employment? I don't see why anyone is drawing the line between the two except for prejudicial reasons.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
At times, the teacher might not allow outside help, because that would provide an unfair advantage over other students. An assignment might even be a take-home test. Although, I do expect that getting help is often allowed; and I think it fairest to give the questioner the benefit of the doubt. If they are dishonest and cheating, then there is a public record. I am more inclined to answer such questions if it appears the person is using their own name for that reason, but I can see answering some questions anyway, again, the presumption of innocence seems fairest. However, I won't answer certain questions that seem to be a homework assignment because of the form of the question. If a teacher gives an assignment, then I presume all the necessary information has already been provided to the student. They only need to read the book, or the notes, and/or pay attention in class, and then they should be able to "try" to create a solution, and then ask a question of the form, "I did this, but that part isn't doing what I expect. What did I do wrong?" It's not appropriate to ask, "How do I do ?," without showing any work when is clearly the major part of the assignment, perhaps even all of it.
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Dave Kreskowiak wrote:
I still won't give a code answer,
You and me both. I prefer to point them in the direction they need to go and let them get there themselves... What I really hate is when I am doing that, and someone else comes in and posts a full code block...
Quad skating his way through the world since the early 80's... Booger Mobile - My bright green 1964 Ford Falcon - check out the blog here!! | If you feel generous - make a donation to Camp Quality!!
If I have the power, I remove those posts or "edit" them to get rid of the code.
A guide to posting questions on CodeProject
How to debug small programs
Dave Kreskowiak -
Since when did asking a homework question in QA become so frowned upon? I agree when someone has not shown any effort that it can be hard to help them and I personally don't want to write all the code for them; however, too often I see people jump to the conclusion that if it is homework they don't deserve help. Whether it is homework, regular work, or hobby if someone asks a question they should all be treated the same. Help if you can.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
It's not about homework per se. It is really all about whether the question meets the guidelines of the Q&A. Very often homework questions simply do not. I'm also a bit old fashioned and believe in the concept of mutual respect. If someone shows no evidence of having learned anything about that I'm not above giving them a small reminder.
Peter Wasser "The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell
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Asking a question is fine: but I do draw the line when they post the actual homework question (complete with the question numbers, and the date it is due to be handed in occasionally) and ask for code! We even had one who posted his tutors email so we could send the solution directly for him... :doh: No, actually I draw the line before that. If you try and get stuck, that's one thing. If you try and get us to do it for you without making any effort at all, that's another. And the geniuses that think we can't tell a homework question from a work project...I think they are in for a real shock when they find out that a real project is rather more than a 100 lines of code for a hotel booking simulator! Why should I do their work for them? If I get them through their course I could end up sitting next to them and having to do their work then as well! :wtf:
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it. --- George Santayana (December 16, 1863 – September 26, 1952) Those who fail to clear history are doomed to explain it. --- OriginalGriff (February 24, 1959 – ∞)
OriginalGriff wrote:
Asking a question is fine: but I do draw the line when they post the actual homework question (complete with the question numbers, and the date it is due to be handed in occasionally) and ask for code!
Give them code that doesn't work. :laugh:
The report of my death was an exaggeration - Mark Twain
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopes -
Yes...some members are rather intolerant of beginners, and if the question is not phrased exactly correctly they are unnecessarily rude and unhelpful - I suspect it makes them feel big to pick on newbies... Pity, because apart from their complete absence of interpersonal skills most of them are actually competent and in some cases very good technically. Shame that their personalities don't match that level of technical expertise. :sigh:
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it. --- George Santayana (December 16, 1863 – September 26, 1952) Those who fail to clear history are doomed to explain it. --- OriginalGriff (February 24, 1959 – ∞)
OriginalGriff wrote:
complete absence of interpersonal skills, most of them are actually must be competent and in some cases very good technically
Sounds like a job description for a developer. :-D
The report of my death was an exaggeration - Mark Twain
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopes -
Persuading others to do your work for you is a wonderful skill to learn.
Some men are born mediocre, some men achieve mediocrity, and some men have mediocrity thrust upon them.
chriselst wrote:
Persuading others to do your work for you is a wonderful skill to learn.
Essential if you are going to manage a project. :-D
The report of my death was an exaggeration - Mark Twain
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopes -
Agree wholeheartedly with you on this one. Any question asked should be treated essentially the same; if the OP asks for help, why not give it? If responding to a guru or a novice, surely the skill in answering is to not just provide the answer, but some framework so the OP understands - which at the end of the day is what it's all about whether for a student or expert. Sure, some posts will just be "please give me code to ..." but whether for homework or the next big thing in mobile apps, the response needs to be guidance toward the goal, and not just the solution on a platter. When I have taught programming I actively encourage the students to look for help online if they are stuck; I usually guide them where to look, and monitor those resources and respond myself when I can - but it is astonishing how one can explain something twenty ways to a blank-faced student, then someone else (as often as not another student) can say "It's like, you know, when that thing gets bigger, and like the other thing, you know?" and the original student's face lights up with understanding!
_Maxxx_ wrote:
it is astonishing how one can explain something twenty ways to a blank-faced student, then someone else (as often as not another student) can say "It's like, you know, when that thing gets bigger, and like the other thing, you know?" and the original student's face lights up with understanding!
Sounds like, you know, when trying to teach you should, you know, learn to speak in terms that can be understood, you know what I am saying. :suss:
The report of my death was an exaggeration - Mark Twain
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopes -
_Maxxx_ wrote:
it is astonishing how one can explain something twenty ways to a blank-faced student, then someone else (as often as not another student) can say "It's like, you know, when that thing gets bigger, and like the other thing, you know?" and the original student's face lights up with understanding!
Sounds like, you know, when trying to teach you should, you know, learn to speak in terms that can be understood, you know what I am saying. :suss:
The report of my death was an exaggeration - Mark Twain
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopes -
Since when did asking a homework question in QA become so frowned upon? I agree when someone has not shown any effort that it can be hard to help them and I personally don't want to write all the code for them; however, too often I see people jump to the conclusion that if it is homework they don't deserve help. Whether it is homework, regular work, or hobby if someone asks a question they should all be treated the same. Help if you can.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
Great point, they do deserve help as long as they are also putting in effort on their end. I think we all agree that the "codz pleez" crowd should be ignored at best. There is something else to consider as well. If we tell all of the students who come here and ask questions that we won't help them (often in less kind words), they will go somewhere else to get help. If they never come back, this community will eventually shrivel up and die. I'm here because I was able to get some questions answered early on, then I started reading the lounge, and I eventually started submitting a few articles. If I were rejected in those early questions I'd probably be contributing somewhere else entirely.
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Great point, they do deserve help as long as they are also putting in effort on their end. I think we all agree that the "codz pleez" crowd should be ignored at best. There is something else to consider as well. If we tell all of the students who come here and ask questions that we won't help them (often in less kind words), they will go somewhere else to get help. If they never come back, this community will eventually shrivel up and die. I'm here because I was able to get some questions answered early on, then I started reading the lounge, and I eventually started submitting a few articles. If I were rejected in those early questions I'd probably be contributing somewhere else entirely.
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If I have the power, I remove those posts or "edit" them to get rid of the code.
A guide to posting questions on CodeProject
How to debug small programs
Dave KreskowiakI hope with the permission of the responder.
Gus Gustafson
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Quote:
Because the usual idea of homework is not to produce a solution per se but to learn how to produce a solution.
I'm not disagreeing but isn't that the same for employment? I don't see why anyone is drawing the line between the two except for prejudicial reasons.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
RyanDev wrote:
but isn't that the same for employment?
I don't want to do someone else's work for them. I don't care whether they're asking because they have a homework problem they're trying to solve or a work problem they're trying to solve. The problem I have with homework is that often the little problem they need help with is the entire thing, whereas for work the little problem is part of a much larger whole.
We can program with only 1's, but if all you've got are zeros, you've got nothing.
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Since when did asking a homework question in QA become so frowned upon? I agree when someone has not shown any effort that it can be hard to help them and I personally don't want to write all the code for them; however, too often I see people jump to the conclusion that if it is homework they don't deserve help. Whether it is homework, regular work, or hobby if someone asks a question they should all be treated the same. Help if you can.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
Homework is a reflection of your own skill. If you do not have the skill then by asking someone else to help, you are just taking credit for something you did not do. Programming is not about getting a result. Programming evolves to quickly to make getting one result worth anything. A only good programmer is one that can learn everything they do not know. Learn to bash your head against the wall, answer your problem with others forums that are close to your problem and learn to manipulate the code. Only then will you be a master.
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we should not provide solution.
But why not? We provide solutions to people who got a job because they told someone they could code. Why the difference?
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
RyanDev wrote:
But why not? We provide solutions to people who got a job
Its a matter of scale. I doubt anyone's sole job is to correctly write a singly linked list. It would be a very, very small part of what they are doing. Writing the code for a single linked list is likely all of the homework.
