"Stealing" from the company?
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So a carpenter is only allowed to build one table, one chair when it's for hire and can't go home and build the same exact chair and table using his own materials? No, that would be obtuse. Of course you can recreate the same code on your own time using your own materials. But for your safety I'd suggest renaming classes & methods, etc. But, you could also ask permission to use the libraries.
If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader.-John Q. Adams
You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering.-Wernher von Braun
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.-Albert Einsteinahmed zahmed wrote:
a carpenter is only allowed to build one table, one chair when it's for hire and can't go home and build the same exact chair and table using his own materials?
Not if the design is identical to the design that he made for the company, no.
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Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
If you create the libraries on the company time, chances are that they own them.
Probably. Would they own the ideas of the libraries as well? I could easily re-create the libraries at home.
Sander Rossel wrote:
Would they own the ideas of the libraries as well?
Yes - depending on whether the libraries themselves were unique or just an implementation of existing ideas. e.g. if you wrote a maths library to perform various mathematical functions, then you couldn't take the source code and use it yourself, but you could write another maths library based on your knowledge, because maths libraries pre-existed your development of one. But if you wrote something unique then reproducing even the idea could be an issue.
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Most of the companies I have worked for cover that in the contract of employment: they own the rights to everything you produce while working for them - and one or two contracts have gone further and claimed ownership of everything produced while employed by them: which covers time outside working hours as well, but that is probably difficult to enforce in a court. Lawyers would enjoy the profits of trying though. If you are at work when you do any work on them, they own it. Taking it home without permission would be theft and could be enforced pretty easily: if it came to court, you'd almost certainly lose. On good terms with your boss? Explain and ask him for permission!
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it. --- George Santayana (December 16, 1863 – September 26, 1952) Those who fail to clear history are doomed to explain it. --- OriginalGriff (February 24, 1959 – ∞)
OriginalGriff wrote:
ownership of everything produced while employed by them: which covers time outside working hours as well
I had a contract that said that. I queried it - what about PooperPig? "don't be silly, of course that's fine - we just mean work related to what you do in this company" "Good oh!" quoth I "then change the contract wording." It took about three or four drafts before I was happy to sign - even though it wouldn't really make a blind bit of difference because, as I understand it, the signature is only absolute proof you have read that copy of the contract - you are still bound by a contract in law regardless as to whether you have signed it, if you continue to work there, unless you can prove that the contract had not completed negotiations. So if they'd just said "tough!" I'd have no option but to accept it or leave.
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You were paid, so it ain't yours. You might be able to claim intellectual copyright, but that would cost you a Hell of a lot more time (and lawyers' fees) than just writing new libraries -- they can't stop you from using your brain to do something in a similar way when you need to do something similar.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
Mark_Wallace wrote:
they can't stop you from using your brain to do something in a similar way when you need to do something similar.
Yes they can. See Apple vs Samsung If you develop something new for a company then that new idea is theirs not yours. If you reproduce the idea, even using different methods, it is the idea that still belongs to the company.
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Yeah, I've got an anti-competition clause, or what's it called, in my contract. In my case I can't do anything for a direct competitor while or three years after employment (but who are our competitors?). That last part goes without saying ;)
My understanding is that those types of clauses are pretty much unenforceable here in Australia under anti-competitive laws... Once you stop working for a company your obligation to them ceases. Unless they want to pay you until the expiry of the no work clause!!
Quad skating his way through the world since the early 80's... Booger Mobile - My bright green 1964 Ford Falcon - check out the blog here!! | If you feel generous - make a donation to Camp Quality!!
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Technically, it's only theft if you get caught. Otherwise it's serendipitous coincident development.
Will Rogers never met me.
Good point! :laugh:
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Generally, if you made those libraries on company time, on company computer, with company licensed tools... then you would be stealing. You have already been compensated for their creation (that is how it works everywhere I have been).
Yep, you'd be a thief. The only exception would be if they gave you permission.
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If you create the libraries on the company time, chances are that they own them. I have this in place in my company - all work created using company resources is covered as belonging to the company. If you worked for me and took your own laptop and did your work on there in your breaks, then I wouldn't have a problem with you using the code for yourself, but if you did it when you were supposed to be working on my projects and/or used my equipment, I would be very annoyed at you taking the code for yourself. The practical example of this was the creators of Barbie suing (and winning) the creators of Bratz because they created the Bratz dolls when they were working for Barbie.
This also depends to some extent on the nature of your contract. I've been a developer for more years than I care to remember, but I have always been very careful to ensure that copyright in the code remained with me (except for very specific contracts). In the UK at least, code is considered a creative work for copyright purposes, so unless your contract of employment explicitly states that anything you write on company time, using company equipment, becomes the property of (and the copyright therein also becomes the property of) the company, then you retain all the intellectual property rights. These days, of course, most employers are aware of this and structure their contracts accordingly, but this certainly wasn't the case generally until quite recently. Now I work for my own company, this isn't much of a problem 8)
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Suppose I created some libraries at work that we use thoroughly because they are awesome. And suppose I wanted to use them for private projects and maybe even professionally (just not at work where I created them). Would it be allright for me to just copy/paste those libraries to my own computer? Why would I think this might not be a problem? First of all I used the internet to create those libraries. Very few code is literally copy/pasted, but the code isn't completely mine either (and so not completely my companies', or maybe it is...). Secondly, I am the only one who wrote those libraries and the only one who knows how they work internally. I could re-create them at home in a couple of days. I even took some code from home and used it at work, although there is no way of proving this. For now I am fine with not having these libraries at home. If I really wanted them I could probably ask my boss and he'd be okay with it. I think legally if I took these libraries and my employer found out he could sue me and I'd be in big trouble (although it might be hard to prove I actually took those libraries and not re-created them, especially when I change some variable names etc.). I was just wondering how people here think about this, personally (as opposed to legally). Does anyone have experience with such matters?
Yeah, one Russian programmer who used to work for Goldman Sachs or some such moneyfleabag got several years in prison for doing exactly that. Can't be arsed to look the thing up. Do the Google search yourself.
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Pualee wrote:
You have already been compensated for their creation
Yeah, very true. How about the ideas? Would it be a problem if I re-created anything. After all, I've been compensated for that too ;)
Ideas are not subject to copyright so unless you've signed something that explicitly excludes you from using them, I see no problem with re-creating something similar at home, as long as you don't do it with the work code visible to you (to remove any possibility of copying). I've done something similar at work to re-use ideas I had working for one client in internal work and the consensus was that that is fine as long as you don't use any of the code you wrote before.
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Most of the companies I have worked for cover that in the contract of employment: they own the rights to everything you produce while working for them - and one or two contracts have gone further and claimed ownership of everything produced while employed by them: which covers time outside working hours as well, but that is probably difficult to enforce in a court. Lawyers would enjoy the profits of trying though. If you are at work when you do any work on them, they own it. Taking it home without permission would be theft and could be enforced pretty easily: if it came to court, you'd almost certainly lose. On good terms with your boss? Explain and ask him for permission!
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it. --- George Santayana (December 16, 1863 – September 26, 1952) Those who fail to clear history are doomed to explain it. --- OriginalGriff (February 24, 1959 – ∞)
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Yeah, I've got an anti-competition clause, or what's it called, in my contract. In my case I can't do anything for a direct competitor while or three years after employment (but who are our competitors?). That last part goes without saying ;)
I've only been asked to sign one of those one time, and I refused. It essentially inhibits your ability to work in your chosen field. If it was at all enforceable, the big companies in Silicon Valley wouldn't be able to hire each others employees.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013 -
Mark_Wallace wrote:
they can't stop you from using your brain to do something in a similar way when you need to do something similar.
Yes they can. See Apple vs Samsung If you develop something new for a company then that new idea is theirs not yours. If you reproduce the idea, even using different methods, it is the idea that still belongs to the company.
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Suppose I created some libraries at work that we use thoroughly because they are awesome. And suppose I wanted to use them for private projects and maybe even professionally (just not at work where I created them). Would it be allright for me to just copy/paste those libraries to my own computer? Why would I think this might not be a problem? First of all I used the internet to create those libraries. Very few code is literally copy/pasted, but the code isn't completely mine either (and so not completely my companies', or maybe it is...). Secondly, I am the only one who wrote those libraries and the only one who knows how they work internally. I could re-create them at home in a couple of days. I even took some code from home and used it at work, although there is no way of proving this. For now I am fine with not having these libraries at home. If I really wanted them I could probably ask my boss and he'd be okay with it. I think legally if I took these libraries and my employer found out he could sue me and I'd be in big trouble (although it might be hard to prove I actually took those libraries and not re-created them, especially when I change some variable names etc.). I was just wondering how people here think about this, personally (as opposed to legally). Does anyone have experience with such matters?
You could always explain to the employer/contract owner that you used various internet sources to develop this library and that corporate citizenship demands that you should share alike. Get permission to publish it with a liberal OS license. Depending on where you obtained some of the code and the license that applied to that code, you might be legally obligated to share alike. Barring that, you should be able to recreate it on your own time. Since this is the second time you would be doing it, it should turn out even better than the first implementation. Just make sure that it is a "clean room" implementation.
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Suppose I created some libraries at work that we use thoroughly because they are awesome. And suppose I wanted to use them for private projects and maybe even professionally (just not at work where I created them). Would it be allright for me to just copy/paste those libraries to my own computer? Why would I think this might not be a problem? First of all I used the internet to create those libraries. Very few code is literally copy/pasted, but the code isn't completely mine either (and so not completely my companies', or maybe it is...). Secondly, I am the only one who wrote those libraries and the only one who knows how they work internally. I could re-create them at home in a couple of days. I even took some code from home and used it at work, although there is no way of proving this. For now I am fine with not having these libraries at home. If I really wanted them I could probably ask my boss and he'd be okay with it. I think legally if I took these libraries and my employer found out he could sue me and I'd be in big trouble (although it might be hard to prove I actually took those libraries and not re-created them, especially when I change some variable names etc.). I was just wondering how people here think about this, personally (as opposed to legally). Does anyone have experience with such matters?
I didn't read through the entire thread yet, but this is a no brainer. You said: "I could re-create them at home in a couple of days." That is what you need to do. Besides if you hit some snag, just go revisit the spot in the code you are stuck on the next day at work. The rule of thumb is if you got paid to write some code you do not own that code. Unless you have a written agreement/contract explicitly stating otherwise.
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Suppose I created some libraries at work that we use thoroughly because they are awesome. And suppose I wanted to use them for private projects and maybe even professionally (just not at work where I created them). Would it be allright for me to just copy/paste those libraries to my own computer? Why would I think this might not be a problem? First of all I used the internet to create those libraries. Very few code is literally copy/pasted, but the code isn't completely mine either (and so not completely my companies', or maybe it is...). Secondly, I am the only one who wrote those libraries and the only one who knows how they work internally. I could re-create them at home in a couple of days. I even took some code from home and used it at work, although there is no way of proving this. For now I am fine with not having these libraries at home. If I really wanted them I could probably ask my boss and he'd be okay with it. I think legally if I took these libraries and my employer found out he could sue me and I'd be in big trouble (although it might be hard to prove I actually took those libraries and not re-created them, especially when I change some variable names etc.). I was just wondering how people here think about this, personally (as opposed to legally). Does anyone have experience with such matters?
From reading the comments I'm not sure that I have anything new to add, but I will reiterate what others have said just to make sure the point is clear - it is definitely stealing. Even if you were copying/pasting from code you located on the internet it is still stealing because you found that code during time that you were being paid. Like Pete and some others that have commented, I have my own company and anyone that works for me (regardless of whether it is full-time or on contract) is required to sign-off the entirety of the work that they create - after all, that's why they're being paid. Check your work agreement because it should clarify some of this for you. If you don't have an agreement then it will come down to whatever is considered "default" for the legalities where you live - in many cases that means that your employer owns your work. Some others have suggested rewriting the libraries in your own time making sure to change class and variable names to identify it as "yours" and to document the personal time you took to create the libraries. That is definitely one option, but I would suggest that the best way of avoiding any legal mess is talking to your employer. The problem is that all of this quickly falls into very gray area - whether you're talking about creating Bratz while working for Barbie or something much less malicious it will often come down to perception. What are using these libraries for? Are you building a product that is similar to your employers? Is it a competing product? Is it a product that fits to your employer's industry horizontally or vertically? Are the libraries that you're reusing unique to these types of products? If the answer is yes to any of those then you're more likely to be heading down a dark path versus reusing a completely generic library for a completely unrelated product in a completely unrelated industry. Bottom line - talk to your employer. If you haven't talked to them because you're afraid of the answer then I think that gives you the moral answer to your question right there! You can always go and talk to a lawyer to cover the bases, but I would suggest you're better off spending your time talking to your employer than wasting time and money on a lawyer - after all, isn't it best to know your employer's position before getting a lawyer involved? Oh, and whatever your employer might agree to be sure to get it in writing so that you are both protected.
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So a carpenter is only allowed to build one table, one chair when it's for hire and can't go home and build the same exact chair and table using his own materials? No, that would be obtuse. Of course you can recreate the same code on your own time using your own materials. But for your safety I'd suggest renaming classes & methods, etc. But, you could also ask permission to use the libraries.
If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader.-John Q. Adams
You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering.-Wernher von Braun
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.-Albert EinsteinCarpenters don't make things (such as encryption algorithms), that if recreated at home and then compromised... could allow hackers access to protected data (for individuals, corporations, and governments). So your analogy is silly. Carpenters generally don't need 'domain specific knowledge' or have access to any classified or proprietary information to create tables. On the other hand. If you make a very simple yet useful library at work, which contains no domain specific knowledge, is easily reverse engineered by anyone wanting the feature, and you do it with YOUR OWN TOOLS, then I think you are ok... as long as you don't open source it in a way the compromises the licensing of your company... and then again... as long as you don't provide it for free while they are trying to sell it... and if ... and if ... the scenarios are probably too specific to imagine here, hence the line about 'talk with your manager'. If you are uncomfortable asking for it... you probably shouldn't recreate it!
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Suppose I created some libraries at work that we use thoroughly because they are awesome. And suppose I wanted to use them for private projects and maybe even professionally (just not at work where I created them). Would it be allright for me to just copy/paste those libraries to my own computer? Why would I think this might not be a problem? First of all I used the internet to create those libraries. Very few code is literally copy/pasted, but the code isn't completely mine either (and so not completely my companies', or maybe it is...). Secondly, I am the only one who wrote those libraries and the only one who knows how they work internally. I could re-create them at home in a couple of days. I even took some code from home and used it at work, although there is no way of proving this. For now I am fine with not having these libraries at home. If I really wanted them I could probably ask my boss and he'd be okay with it. I think legally if I took these libraries and my employer found out he could sue me and I'd be in big trouble (although it might be hard to prove I actually took those libraries and not re-created them, especially when I change some variable names etc.). I was just wondering how people here think about this, personally (as opposed to legally). Does anyone have experience with such matters?
I have been in this situation and what we ended up doing was getting management to put an open source license (MIT, APACHE, etc.) on the libraries... not their proprietary finished product but on some of the low level libraries we had written. They agreed and everyone was happy forever. ;P
Eric
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W∴ Balboos wrote:
so the creation of the knowledge is their property
So when going out of employment you should forget everything you learned while employed? That's a bit hard... Unless you're with the MIB ;)
If I recall correctly, there was some sort of time limit. It may have been as short as when one's gov't employment is terminated (which is what would happen if you violated the rules). For private sector, it's likely in the contract that one cannot make of use of their intellectual property for some set period. The rest buys Porsche's for Intellectual Property Lawyers.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"As far as we know, our computer has never had an undetected error." - Weisert
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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Carpenters don't make things (such as encryption algorithms), that if recreated at home and then compromised... could allow hackers access to protected data (for individuals, corporations, and governments). So your analogy is silly. Carpenters generally don't need 'domain specific knowledge' or have access to any classified or proprietary information to create tables. On the other hand. If you make a very simple yet useful library at work, which contains no domain specific knowledge, is easily reverse engineered by anyone wanting the feature, and you do it with YOUR OWN TOOLS, then I think you are ok... as long as you don't open source it in a way the compromises the licensing of your company... and then again... as long as you don't provide it for free while they are trying to sell it... and if ... and if ... the scenarios are probably too specific to imagine here, hence the line about 'talk with your manager'. If you are uncomfortable asking for it... you probably shouldn't recreate it!
Boy you really stretched the analogy beyond all reason so you could justify your "silly" comment. :rolleyes: :thumbsdown:
If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader.-John Q. Adams
You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering.-Wernher von Braun
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.-Albert Einstein
