"Stealing" from the company?
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Pualee wrote:
You have already been compensated for their creation
Yeah, very true. How about the ideas? Would it be a problem if I re-created anything. After all, I've been compensated for that too ;)
Ideas are not subject to copyright so unless you've signed something that explicitly excludes you from using them, I see no problem with re-creating something similar at home, as long as you don't do it with the work code visible to you (to remove any possibility of copying). I've done something similar at work to re-use ideas I had working for one client in internal work and the consensus was that that is fine as long as you don't use any of the code you wrote before.
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Most of the companies I have worked for cover that in the contract of employment: they own the rights to everything you produce while working for them - and one or two contracts have gone further and claimed ownership of everything produced while employed by them: which covers time outside working hours as well, but that is probably difficult to enforce in a court. Lawyers would enjoy the profits of trying though. If you are at work when you do any work on them, they own it. Taking it home without permission would be theft and could be enforced pretty easily: if it came to court, you'd almost certainly lose. On good terms with your boss? Explain and ask him for permission!
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it. --- George Santayana (December 16, 1863 – September 26, 1952) Those who fail to clear history are doomed to explain it. --- OriginalGriff (February 24, 1959 – ∞)
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Yeah, I've got an anti-competition clause, or what's it called, in my contract. In my case I can't do anything for a direct competitor while or three years after employment (but who are our competitors?). That last part goes without saying ;)
I've only been asked to sign one of those one time, and I refused. It essentially inhibits your ability to work in your chosen field. If it was at all enforceable, the big companies in Silicon Valley wouldn't be able to hire each others employees.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013 -
Mark_Wallace wrote:
they can't stop you from using your brain to do something in a similar way when you need to do something similar.
Yes they can. See Apple vs Samsung If you develop something new for a company then that new idea is theirs not yours. If you reproduce the idea, even using different methods, it is the idea that still belongs to the company.
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Suppose I created some libraries at work that we use thoroughly because they are awesome. And suppose I wanted to use them for private projects and maybe even professionally (just not at work where I created them). Would it be allright for me to just copy/paste those libraries to my own computer? Why would I think this might not be a problem? First of all I used the internet to create those libraries. Very few code is literally copy/pasted, but the code isn't completely mine either (and so not completely my companies', or maybe it is...). Secondly, I am the only one who wrote those libraries and the only one who knows how they work internally. I could re-create them at home in a couple of days. I even took some code from home and used it at work, although there is no way of proving this. For now I am fine with not having these libraries at home. If I really wanted them I could probably ask my boss and he'd be okay with it. I think legally if I took these libraries and my employer found out he could sue me and I'd be in big trouble (although it might be hard to prove I actually took those libraries and not re-created them, especially when I change some variable names etc.). I was just wondering how people here think about this, personally (as opposed to legally). Does anyone have experience with such matters?
You could always explain to the employer/contract owner that you used various internet sources to develop this library and that corporate citizenship demands that you should share alike. Get permission to publish it with a liberal OS license. Depending on where you obtained some of the code and the license that applied to that code, you might be legally obligated to share alike. Barring that, you should be able to recreate it on your own time. Since this is the second time you would be doing it, it should turn out even better than the first implementation. Just make sure that it is a "clean room" implementation.
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Suppose I created some libraries at work that we use thoroughly because they are awesome. And suppose I wanted to use them for private projects and maybe even professionally (just not at work where I created them). Would it be allright for me to just copy/paste those libraries to my own computer? Why would I think this might not be a problem? First of all I used the internet to create those libraries. Very few code is literally copy/pasted, but the code isn't completely mine either (and so not completely my companies', or maybe it is...). Secondly, I am the only one who wrote those libraries and the only one who knows how they work internally. I could re-create them at home in a couple of days. I even took some code from home and used it at work, although there is no way of proving this. For now I am fine with not having these libraries at home. If I really wanted them I could probably ask my boss and he'd be okay with it. I think legally if I took these libraries and my employer found out he could sue me and I'd be in big trouble (although it might be hard to prove I actually took those libraries and not re-created them, especially when I change some variable names etc.). I was just wondering how people here think about this, personally (as opposed to legally). Does anyone have experience with such matters?
I didn't read through the entire thread yet, but this is a no brainer. You said: "I could re-create them at home in a couple of days." That is what you need to do. Besides if you hit some snag, just go revisit the spot in the code you are stuck on the next day at work. The rule of thumb is if you got paid to write some code you do not own that code. Unless you have a written agreement/contract explicitly stating otherwise.
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Suppose I created some libraries at work that we use thoroughly because they are awesome. And suppose I wanted to use them for private projects and maybe even professionally (just not at work where I created them). Would it be allright for me to just copy/paste those libraries to my own computer? Why would I think this might not be a problem? First of all I used the internet to create those libraries. Very few code is literally copy/pasted, but the code isn't completely mine either (and so not completely my companies', or maybe it is...). Secondly, I am the only one who wrote those libraries and the only one who knows how they work internally. I could re-create them at home in a couple of days. I even took some code from home and used it at work, although there is no way of proving this. For now I am fine with not having these libraries at home. If I really wanted them I could probably ask my boss and he'd be okay with it. I think legally if I took these libraries and my employer found out he could sue me and I'd be in big trouble (although it might be hard to prove I actually took those libraries and not re-created them, especially when I change some variable names etc.). I was just wondering how people here think about this, personally (as opposed to legally). Does anyone have experience with such matters?
From reading the comments I'm not sure that I have anything new to add, but I will reiterate what others have said just to make sure the point is clear - it is definitely stealing. Even if you were copying/pasting from code you located on the internet it is still stealing because you found that code during time that you were being paid. Like Pete and some others that have commented, I have my own company and anyone that works for me (regardless of whether it is full-time or on contract) is required to sign-off the entirety of the work that they create - after all, that's why they're being paid. Check your work agreement because it should clarify some of this for you. If you don't have an agreement then it will come down to whatever is considered "default" for the legalities where you live - in many cases that means that your employer owns your work. Some others have suggested rewriting the libraries in your own time making sure to change class and variable names to identify it as "yours" and to document the personal time you took to create the libraries. That is definitely one option, but I would suggest that the best way of avoiding any legal mess is talking to your employer. The problem is that all of this quickly falls into very gray area - whether you're talking about creating Bratz while working for Barbie or something much less malicious it will often come down to perception. What are using these libraries for? Are you building a product that is similar to your employers? Is it a competing product? Is it a product that fits to your employer's industry horizontally or vertically? Are the libraries that you're reusing unique to these types of products? If the answer is yes to any of those then you're more likely to be heading down a dark path versus reusing a completely generic library for a completely unrelated product in a completely unrelated industry. Bottom line - talk to your employer. If you haven't talked to them because you're afraid of the answer then I think that gives you the moral answer to your question right there! You can always go and talk to a lawyer to cover the bases, but I would suggest you're better off spending your time talking to your employer than wasting time and money on a lawyer - after all, isn't it best to know your employer's position before getting a lawyer involved? Oh, and whatever your employer might agree to be sure to get it in writing so that you are both protected.
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So a carpenter is only allowed to build one table, one chair when it's for hire and can't go home and build the same exact chair and table using his own materials? No, that would be obtuse. Of course you can recreate the same code on your own time using your own materials. But for your safety I'd suggest renaming classes & methods, etc. But, you could also ask permission to use the libraries.
If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader.-John Q. Adams
You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering.-Wernher von Braun
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.-Albert EinsteinCarpenters don't make things (such as encryption algorithms), that if recreated at home and then compromised... could allow hackers access to protected data (for individuals, corporations, and governments). So your analogy is silly. Carpenters generally don't need 'domain specific knowledge' or have access to any classified or proprietary information to create tables. On the other hand. If you make a very simple yet useful library at work, which contains no domain specific knowledge, is easily reverse engineered by anyone wanting the feature, and you do it with YOUR OWN TOOLS, then I think you are ok... as long as you don't open source it in a way the compromises the licensing of your company... and then again... as long as you don't provide it for free while they are trying to sell it... and if ... and if ... the scenarios are probably too specific to imagine here, hence the line about 'talk with your manager'. If you are uncomfortable asking for it... you probably shouldn't recreate it!
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Suppose I created some libraries at work that we use thoroughly because they are awesome. And suppose I wanted to use them for private projects and maybe even professionally (just not at work where I created them). Would it be allright for me to just copy/paste those libraries to my own computer? Why would I think this might not be a problem? First of all I used the internet to create those libraries. Very few code is literally copy/pasted, but the code isn't completely mine either (and so not completely my companies', or maybe it is...). Secondly, I am the only one who wrote those libraries and the only one who knows how they work internally. I could re-create them at home in a couple of days. I even took some code from home and used it at work, although there is no way of proving this. For now I am fine with not having these libraries at home. If I really wanted them I could probably ask my boss and he'd be okay with it. I think legally if I took these libraries and my employer found out he could sue me and I'd be in big trouble (although it might be hard to prove I actually took those libraries and not re-created them, especially when I change some variable names etc.). I was just wondering how people here think about this, personally (as opposed to legally). Does anyone have experience with such matters?
I have been in this situation and what we ended up doing was getting management to put an open source license (MIT, APACHE, etc.) on the libraries... not their proprietary finished product but on some of the low level libraries we had written. They agreed and everyone was happy forever. ;P
Eric
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W∴ Balboos wrote:
so the creation of the knowledge is their property
So when going out of employment you should forget everything you learned while employed? That's a bit hard... Unless you're with the MIB ;)
If I recall correctly, there was some sort of time limit. It may have been as short as when one's gov't employment is terminated (which is what would happen if you violated the rules). For private sector, it's likely in the contract that one cannot make of use of their intellectual property for some set period. The rest buys Porsche's for Intellectual Property Lawyers.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"As far as we know, our computer has never had an undetected error." - Weisert
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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Carpenters don't make things (such as encryption algorithms), that if recreated at home and then compromised... could allow hackers access to protected data (for individuals, corporations, and governments). So your analogy is silly. Carpenters generally don't need 'domain specific knowledge' or have access to any classified or proprietary information to create tables. On the other hand. If you make a very simple yet useful library at work, which contains no domain specific knowledge, is easily reverse engineered by anyone wanting the feature, and you do it with YOUR OWN TOOLS, then I think you are ok... as long as you don't open source it in a way the compromises the licensing of your company... and then again... as long as you don't provide it for free while they are trying to sell it... and if ... and if ... the scenarios are probably too specific to imagine here, hence the line about 'talk with your manager'. If you are uncomfortable asking for it... you probably shouldn't recreate it!
Boy you really stretched the analogy beyond all reason so you could justify your "silly" comment. :rolleyes: :thumbsdown:
If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader.-John Q. Adams
You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering.-Wernher von Braun
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.-Albert Einstein -
Suppose I created some libraries at work that we use thoroughly because they are awesome. And suppose I wanted to use them for private projects and maybe even professionally (just not at work where I created them). Would it be allright for me to just copy/paste those libraries to my own computer? Why would I think this might not be a problem? First of all I used the internet to create those libraries. Very few code is literally copy/pasted, but the code isn't completely mine either (and so not completely my companies', or maybe it is...). Secondly, I am the only one who wrote those libraries and the only one who knows how they work internally. I could re-create them at home in a couple of days. I even took some code from home and used it at work, although there is no way of proving this. For now I am fine with not having these libraries at home. If I really wanted them I could probably ask my boss and he'd be okay with it. I think legally if I took these libraries and my employer found out he could sue me and I'd be in big trouble (although it might be hard to prove I actually took those libraries and not re-created them, especially when I change some variable names etc.). I was just wondering how people here think about this, personally (as opposed to legally). Does anyone have experience with such matters?
Simple, go ask your boss, if he says no, then go and read your contract, if it says that anything done in your time is yours, go ahead and recreate the libraries from scratch.
CEO at: - Rafaga Systems - Para Facturas - Modern Components for the moment...
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Suppose I created some libraries at work that we use thoroughly because they are awesome. And suppose I wanted to use them for private projects and maybe even professionally (just not at work where I created them). Would it be allright for me to just copy/paste those libraries to my own computer? Why would I think this might not be a problem? First of all I used the internet to create those libraries. Very few code is literally copy/pasted, but the code isn't completely mine either (and so not completely my companies', or maybe it is...). Secondly, I am the only one who wrote those libraries and the only one who knows how they work internally. I could re-create them at home in a couple of days. I even took some code from home and used it at work, although there is no way of proving this. For now I am fine with not having these libraries at home. If I really wanted them I could probably ask my boss and he'd be okay with it. I think legally if I took these libraries and my employer found out he could sue me and I'd be in big trouble (although it might be hard to prove I actually took those libraries and not re-created them, especially when I change some variable names etc.). I was just wondering how people here think about this, personally (as opposed to legally). Does anyone have experience with such matters?
You can rationalize all you want, but your employer owns that code. Taking it from them would be stealing. If you can get permission to use the library, do so. In writing. Where its clearly stated that you have permission to use it for outside professional projects. I can't see that happening. Or, you can just recreate the libraries at home from scratch. Not steal and try to obscure its origin by changing variable names, an actual ground up rewrite. There's always tons of stuff to improve in a rewrite anyway. However, check your IP agreement carefully, many companies' agreements claim to own everything you develop, inside or outside of work. Instead of any of the above, you could try to convince them to give something back to the community that helped their developers and release an open source fork of that library. Then everybody wins. They win at least in the goodwill & public image departments, and perhaps by having other the community make it better.
We can program with only 1's, but if all you've got are zeros, you've got nothing.
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Suppose I created some libraries at work that we use thoroughly because they are awesome. And suppose I wanted to use them for private projects and maybe even professionally (just not at work where I created them). Would it be allright for me to just copy/paste those libraries to my own computer? Why would I think this might not be a problem? First of all I used the internet to create those libraries. Very few code is literally copy/pasted, but the code isn't completely mine either (and so not completely my companies', or maybe it is...). Secondly, I am the only one who wrote those libraries and the only one who knows how they work internally. I could re-create them at home in a couple of days. I even took some code from home and used it at work, although there is no way of proving this. For now I am fine with not having these libraries at home. If I really wanted them I could probably ask my boss and he'd be okay with it. I think legally if I took these libraries and my employer found out he could sue me and I'd be in big trouble (although it might be hard to prove I actually took those libraries and not re-created them, especially when I change some variable names etc.). I was just wondering how people here think about this, personally (as opposed to legally). Does anyone have experience with such matters?
You can't use it in any other commercial venture, at all. I just spoke with an attorney on a coding issue that was more questionable than this. Even creating a product (code, etc.) that even looks like what your employer is doing while you're under their employ is in violation of copyright unless your employment agreement explicitly states that you can use the code which most of them don't.
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You can rationalize all you want, but your employer owns that code. Taking it from them would be stealing. If you can get permission to use the library, do so. In writing. Where its clearly stated that you have permission to use it for outside professional projects. I can't see that happening. Or, you can just recreate the libraries at home from scratch. Not steal and try to obscure its origin by changing variable names, an actual ground up rewrite. There's always tons of stuff to improve in a rewrite anyway. However, check your IP agreement carefully, many companies' agreements claim to own everything you develop, inside or outside of work. Instead of any of the above, you could try to convince them to give something back to the community that helped their developers and release an open source fork of that library. Then everybody wins. They win at least in the goodwill & public image departments, and perhaps by having other the community make it better.
We can program with only 1's, but if all you've got are zeros, you've got nothing.
That's exactly what my attorney confirmed. If you're developing something (off company time on your own equipment) you can use it as long as it doesn't compete on any level with your employer. My employment agreement reads that any inventions, discoveries, yadda yadda yadda that I make that relate to their product belongs to them whether I do it on my time, equipment or anything else. Now if I come up with something totally outside their business then that's different according to my contract. However yours may be written to say ANYTHING you invent (regardless of whether it relates to their business or not) belongs to them ... then that's it. In my case this means I can develop a whole bunch of things of my own on my time as long as I'm no competitive threat ... which is actually a very generous way to write it from their end. They don't mind me creating things on my own, just not stuff that will cut into their business. YMMV
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That's exactly what my attorney confirmed. If you're developing something (off company time on your own equipment) you can use it as long as it doesn't compete on any level with your employer. My employment agreement reads that any inventions, discoveries, yadda yadda yadda that I make that relate to their product belongs to them whether I do it on my time, equipment or anything else. Now if I come up with something totally outside their business then that's different according to my contract. However yours may be written to say ANYTHING you invent (regardless of whether it relates to their business or not) belongs to them ... then that's it. In my case this means I can develop a whole bunch of things of my own on my time as long as I'm no competitive threat ... which is actually a very generous way to write it from their end. They don't mind me creating things on my own, just not stuff that will cut into their business. YMMV
CodeBubba wrote:
which is actually a very generous way to write it from their end. They don't mind me creating things on my own, just not stuff that will cut into their business.
Why would they mind and why is that generous? I call it common sense and courtesy ;) Besides, any knowledge you get at home developing your own projects you take to work where it will probably benefit your employer.
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My understanding is that those types of clauses are pretty much unenforceable here in Australia under anti-competitive laws... Once you stop working for a company your obligation to them ceases. Unless they want to pay you until the expiry of the no work clause!!
Quad skating his way through the world since the early 80's... Booger Mobile - My bright green 1964 Ford Falcon - check out the blog here!! | If you feel generous - make a donation to Camp Quality!!
_Damian S_ wrote:
My understanding is that those types of clauses are pretty much unenforceable here in Australia
Same goes for the Netherlands, but an employer can try... ;)
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So a carpenter is only allowed to build one table, one chair when it's for hire and can't go home and build the same exact chair and table using his own materials? No, that would be obtuse. Of course you can recreate the same code on your own time using your own materials. But for your safety I'd suggest renaming classes & methods, etc. But, you could also ask permission to use the libraries.
If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader.-John Q. Adams
You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering.-Wernher von Braun
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.-Albert Einsteinahmed zahmed wrote:
No, that would be obtuse.
Except the law is not about absolutes. Rather it is about how reasonable something is. So if you do in fact create exactly the same thing then it would be up to the judge/jury to decide it if is "reasonable" if the code you created actually appears to be something that you created fresh or it a copy that you attempted to obfuscate to look different. This of course precludes any existing agreements that states that one can't even work in the same area (regardless of when or how one does it.)
ahmed zahmed wrote:
But for your safety I'd suggest renaming classes & methods, etc.
Not sure what that comment means. But taking existing code and renaming it is copying. And a reasonable interpretation would be that you had done just that.
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OriginalGriff wrote:
Their attitude was that they don't pay developers by the hour; they pay by the month, so anything you did during that month was theirs!
They pay for x hours per month, so anything produced in those x hours can be theirs. What I do outside office hours is none of their business though!
OriginalGriff wrote:
I did ask if I should take a plastic bag with me on bathroom visits, but just got a stern look... :laugh:
:laugh: Doesn't sound like a company I would want to be working for... :~
Sander Rossel wrote:
What I do outside office hours is none of their business though!
That isn't true even in a general way. Certainly not in the US and probably most everywhere else as well. Lets go through the reasonable cases. - You commit a felony hate crime Saturday night and the press come knocking at your work to ask about you on Monday. You get fired right then. - You have a written contract with an company, you are not even an employee, but the contract states that any work in the financial industry belongs to them (any work, any time) and further there is a morals clause that specifically allows them to terminate you if you commit any serious crime. And you fail to meet one or both. And the unreasonable ones. - Drugs. You do something Saturday nite and get tested Monday. And you are fired Tuesday for drug use. - The boss doesn't like you much but keeps you around because he isn't much of a manager, but he did see you on a date with his daughter on Saturday night - so you get fired Saturday. - You write a letter to the newspaper that gets published on sunday but expressing a political view opposite that of your boss, and you get fired Monday. - You get a tattoo on Saturday because you have been cancer free for 10 years. You boss doesn't like tattoos, so...
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BobJanova wrote:
That's only true if the idea is patented.
That is simplistic. If in fact you do start from scratch and write something similar then, at least in some cases, you are allowed to do that. It depends on implicit and explicit contracts where one is. However that doesn't stop legal challenges. And in such cases one side will attempt to show that it is a copy (modified or not) and the other will attempt to show it isn't. Neither is a sure thing. Given that and presuming that that one really did re-write it then, legally, one can only hope that what one created would be deemed significantly different enough that it would be ruled unique. But at best that is risky.
