Interesting stats on the 2014 H-1B job Visa applications
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Well, by paying these people that much, they might have to lower others' people salaries :rolleyes:
~RaGE();
I think words like 'destiny' are a way of trying to find order where none exists. - Christian Graus Entropy isn't what it used to.
I thought they did it by playing games with national borders and the tax men. :doh:
Did you ever see history portrayed as an old man with a wise brow and pulseless heart, waging all things in the balance of reason? Is not rather the genius of history like an eternal, imploring maiden, full of fire, with a burning heart and flaming soul, humanly warm and humanly beautiful? --Zachris Topelius Training a telescope on one’s own belly button will only reveal lint. You like that? You go right on staring at it. I prefer looking at galaxies. -- Sarah Hoyt
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Ravi Bhavnani wrote:
They're freely available in Canada.
Canada - land of freedom! :rolleyes:
Regards, Nish
Blog: voidnish.wordpress.com Latest article: C++ 11 features in Visual C++ 2013 Preview
I think it's a matter of a different foreign policy rather than lack of freedom. IMHO the US and Canada share similar freedoms but have different policies on several key issues. And we also have a mayor who's very entertaining. /ravi
My new year resolution: 2048 x 1536 Home | Articles | My .NET bits | Freeware ravib(at)ravib(dot)com
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I think it's a matter of a different foreign policy rather than lack of freedom. IMHO the US and Canada share similar freedoms but have different policies on several key issues. And we also have a mayor who's very entertaining. /ravi
My new year resolution: 2048 x 1536 Home | Articles | My .NET bits | Freeware ravib(at)ravib(dot)com
We had a crackhead mayor[^] back in the '90's. As usual Canada is coping America decades after the fact and then patting itself on the back for being so clever. :-\
Did you ever see history portrayed as an old man with a wise brow and pulseless heart, waging all things in the balance of reason? Is not rather the genius of history like an eternal, imploring maiden, full of fire, with a burning heart and flaming soul, humanly warm and humanly beautiful? --Zachris Topelius Training a telescope on one’s own belly button will only reveal lint. You like that? You go right on staring at it. I prefer looking at galaxies. -- Sarah Hoyt
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We had a crackhead mayor[^] back in the '90's. As usual Canada is coping America decades after the fact and then patting itself on the back for being so clever. :-\
Did you ever see history portrayed as an old man with a wise brow and pulseless heart, waging all things in the balance of reason? Is not rather the genius of history like an eternal, imploring maiden, full of fire, with a burning heart and flaming soul, humanly warm and humanly beautiful? --Zachris Topelius Training a telescope on one’s own belly button will only reveal lint. You like that? You go right on staring at it. I prefer looking at galaxies. -- Sarah Hoyt
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Back in real life, when I was a chemist, I was very offended at the existence of H-1B visas. At that time, at least, it was used as a way to higher (=import) employees far below the market value of such credentials. Often so specific that it would be surprising if more than one person in the world could possibly fulfill them. The technique the employers would use is put out a set of very specific requirements and accomplishment that, were a native/citizen capable of having would command a huge salary. This artificial specificity was tailor made for a particular person they wanted to hire (perhaps a post-doc). The requirements that a US citizen be given first opportunity for the job was met - but in an obnoxious and cynical manner. So the letter of the law was met. The company got an indentured servant for an employee and a US citizen continued on their job search. It's decades later, but this sore spot that will not easily heal.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
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"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
I didn't come in with an H-1B, but I had left the company and wanted to come back. I called one of my former bosses to see how this could work out and he said that they were in the middle of a big layoff and were required to offer any job openings to any qualified person on the layoff list (the operative word here is "qualified"). He wanted me to send him a complete detailed Resume that listed every thing that I had done for the company in the 15 years that I had worked for them (hardware development and software development) including my current qualifications (going back to GE/Honeywell, currently working on IBM). I sent him a detailed 6 page Resume and he wrote up an RFP that only one person in the whole world could fulfill. I got the job. Dave.
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- Stats : http://i.imgur.com/Hz7EpCN.jpg[^]
- Source: http://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2014-H1B-Visa-Sponsor.aspx[^]
The largest consumer of that Visa is Infosys, they consume almost 40% of the available cap for an year, and their average H-1B salary is 76K. Not high, but not peanuts either consider most first time visa employees are in their mid 20s. But for me, the really interesting bits were the salary averages for the big companies like Microsoft and Google. Microsoft's average H-1b pay is 113K, Google's is 126K, Oracle's 113, Amazon has 109K, Apple pays a nice 130K, Facebook 123K, and here's a surprise, Walmart pays 113K average. I know there's a big outcry about these big companies hiring foreign workers and people always say it's because they pay peanuts, but salaries upwards of 110-120K for people under 30 seems to be on the higher side of affairs as far as I can see. Bit of an eye opener here.
Regards, Nish
Blog: voidnish.wordpress.com Latest article: C++ 11 features in Visual C++ 2013 Preview
Interesting. As a non US citizen how do I take advantage of this. Preferably without leaving my living room? :)
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- Stats : http://i.imgur.com/Hz7EpCN.jpg[^]
- Source: http://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2014-H1B-Visa-Sponsor.aspx[^]
The largest consumer of that Visa is Infosys, they consume almost 40% of the available cap for an year, and their average H-1B salary is 76K. Not high, but not peanuts either consider most first time visa employees are in their mid 20s. But for me, the really interesting bits were the salary averages for the big companies like Microsoft and Google. Microsoft's average H-1b pay is 113K, Google's is 126K, Oracle's 113, Amazon has 109K, Apple pays a nice 130K, Facebook 123K, and here's a surprise, Walmart pays 113K average. I know there's a big outcry about these big companies hiring foreign workers and people always say it's because they pay peanuts, but salaries upwards of 110-120K for people under 30 seems to be on the higher side of affairs as far as I can see. Bit of an eye opener here.
Regards, Nish
Blog: voidnish.wordpress.com Latest article: C++ 11 features in Visual C++ 2013 Preview
I agree, stats is VERY interesting - how the hell one indian company occupied 40% while people from other countries wait for years to get this H1-B? If USA don't want to sing and dance next 50 years without food, they should stop "importing" indian "supposed to be" programmers and start improving local specialists.
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Well, I've been involved in hiring on multiple occasions in the past decade or so, and it is extremely difficult to hire skilled talent in the States. I know there is a 3-4% unemployment rate among IT folks, but without wanting to sound rude, I've gotta say those people are probably not very good at what they are doing. There are good people, but they don't frequently change jobs and may not be available in the city you are recruiting for.
Regards, Nish
Blog: voidnish.wordpress.com Latest article: C++ 11 features in Visual C++ 2013 Preview
Yes it's those stubborn developers who refuse to change jobs and has nothing to do with the FACT that companies are actively colluding to hold down wages of developers. This is not a subject for debate the tech firms actually wrote it down as official policy. Companies Colluding
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Yes it's those stubborn developers who refuse to change jobs and has nothing to do with the FACT that companies are actively colluding to hold down wages of developers. This is not a subject for debate the tech firms actually wrote it down as official policy. Companies Colluding
Well, that may or may not be so. My focal point in this thread was primarily how the big companies like Apple, Facebook, Microsoft, and Google all have salaries that are well above industry averages for their H-1B employees (contrary to what several people assumed). That side post I made was my personal experience where it's been a massive struggle to find even a few really good candidates. You need to go through dozens before you get a good one.
Regards, Nish
Blog: voidnish.wordpress.com Latest article: C++ 11 features in Visual C++ 2013 Preview
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- Stats : http://i.imgur.com/Hz7EpCN.jpg[^]
- Source: http://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2014-H1B-Visa-Sponsor.aspx[^]
The largest consumer of that Visa is Infosys, they consume almost 40% of the available cap for an year, and their average H-1B salary is 76K. Not high, but not peanuts either consider most first time visa employees are in their mid 20s. But for me, the really interesting bits were the salary averages for the big companies like Microsoft and Google. Microsoft's average H-1b pay is 113K, Google's is 126K, Oracle's 113, Amazon has 109K, Apple pays a nice 130K, Facebook 123K, and here's a surprise, Walmart pays 113K average. I know there's a big outcry about these big companies hiring foreign workers and people always say it's because they pay peanuts, but salaries upwards of 110-120K for people under 30 seems to be on the higher side of affairs as far as I can see. Bit of an eye opener here.
Regards, Nish
Blog: voidnish.wordpress.com Latest article: C++ 11 features in Visual C++ 2013 Preview
Nish, you failed to mention in the OP that you have a horse in this race. You, as mentioned elsewhere, are involved in tech recruiting currently correct? I am sure that was just an oversight though. The reality is the H-1B hires making the 100K+ at the big tech firms are taking jobs that would probably cost the tech firms 200K+ to hire a native to fill. To just say "well look at how well these folks are paid surely this cannot be holding down wages" is patently disingenuous. Companies in general and tech companies in particular collude to hold down developer wages; this is a fact. Hiring good talent is easy if a company is willing to pay for it. The problem is that people at companies like to redline developers into price brackets and interestingly enough wont pay more than that - none of them will. It's no longer a supply/demand situation. If the free market was actually at work here software developers would make a lot more in the US. It is greed and collusion imo.
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Nish, you failed to mention in the OP that you have a horse in this race. You, as mentioned elsewhere, are involved in tech recruiting currently correct? I am sure that was just an oversight though. The reality is the H-1B hires making the 100K+ at the big tech firms are taking jobs that would probably cost the tech firms 200K+ to hire a native to fill. To just say "well look at how well these folks are paid surely this cannot be holding down wages" is patently disingenuous. Companies in general and tech companies in particular collude to hold down developer wages; this is a fact. Hiring good talent is easy if a company is willing to pay for it. The problem is that people at companies like to redline developers into price brackets and interestingly enough wont pay more than that - none of them will. It's no longer a supply/demand situation. If the free market was actually at work here software developers would make a lot more in the US. It is greed and collusion imo.
Rowdy Raider wrote:
Nish, you failed to mention in the OP that you have a horse in this race. You, as mentioned elsewhere, are involved in tech recruiting currently correct? I am sure that was just an oversight though.
Uhm not really. I have been involved in hiring software engineers for my team, but I am not a recruiter. And I've never been involved in hiring someone on an H-1B, which is interesting as I was myself once an H1-B visa holder. Well the Microsoft positions were for software developers, and senior software developers. I don't think they'd be paying 200K+ to hire a native (I know many natives that work there :)). Also these positions are usually filled by someone with 3-4 years of experience and even for Seattle, 110K is a very good salary.
Regards, Nish
Blog: voidnish.wordpress.com Latest article: C++ 11 features in Visual C++ 2013 Preview
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Nish, you failed to mention in the OP that you have a horse in this race. You, as mentioned elsewhere, are involved in tech recruiting currently correct? I am sure that was just an oversight though. The reality is the H-1B hires making the 100K+ at the big tech firms are taking jobs that would probably cost the tech firms 200K+ to hire a native to fill. To just say "well look at how well these folks are paid surely this cannot be holding down wages" is patently disingenuous. Companies in general and tech companies in particular collude to hold down developer wages; this is a fact. Hiring good talent is easy if a company is willing to pay for it. The problem is that people at companies like to redline developers into price brackets and interestingly enough wont pay more than that - none of them will. It's no longer a supply/demand situation. If the free market was actually at work here software developers would make a lot more in the US. It is greed and collusion imo.
Rowdy Raider wrote:
Hiring good talent is easy if a company is willing to pay for it.
Not true, in my experience. We were offering salaries well above industry average and got 100s of resumes but only a handful were remotely hirable. A lot of people think they are very good at writing software, and when they are turned out they assume it's because the company was doing some kind of dummy interview. There may be companies that play wage suppression tactics, but I've never worked for one. So my experience may not reflect yours.
Regards, Nish
Blog: voidnish.wordpress.com Latest article: C++ 11 features in Visual C++ 2013 Preview
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Rowdy Raider wrote:
Nish, you failed to mention in the OP that you have a horse in this race. You, as mentioned elsewhere, are involved in tech recruiting currently correct? I am sure that was just an oversight though.
Uhm not really. I have been involved in hiring software engineers for my team, but I am not a recruiter. And I've never been involved in hiring someone on an H-1B, which is interesting as I was myself once an H1-B visa holder. Well the Microsoft positions were for software developers, and senior software developers. I don't think they'd be paying 200K+ to hire a native (I know many natives that work there :)). Also these positions are usually filled by someone with 3-4 years of experience and even for Seattle, 110K is a very good salary.
Regards, Nish
Blog: voidnish.wordpress.com Latest article: C++ 11 features in Visual C++ 2013 Preview
Microsoft is one of the companies named in the scandal. So yes you are correct they obviously would not pay 200K+ because they can just import foreigners instead - plus lets not forget they're colluding with the other tech firms *specifically* to avoid paying those kinds of salaries.
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Rowdy Raider wrote:
Hiring good talent is easy if a company is willing to pay for it.
Not true, in my experience. We were offering salaries well above industry average and got 100s of resumes but only a handful were remotely hirable. A lot of people think they are very good at writing software, and when they are turned out they assume it's because the company was doing some kind of dummy interview. There may be companies that play wage suppression tactics, but I've never worked for one. So my experience may not reflect yours.
Regards, Nish
Blog: voidnish.wordpress.com Latest article: C++ 11 features in Visual C++ 2013 Preview
And that ladies and gentlemen is text book redlining. Also, and not to be mean/rude to you Nish, just because you have a hard time hiring people doesn't mean it is hard to high technical talent in general. I am willing to accept that it is hard for you to hire within the given price constraints artificially imposed on you by the business owner/sponsor though.
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Microsoft is one of the companies named in the scandal. So yes you are correct they obviously would not pay 200K+ because they can just import foreigners instead - plus lets not forget they're colluding with the other tech firms *specifically* to avoid paying those kinds of salaries.
I read that article, it seems to imply that they have an agreement to not hire each others' devs. It doesn't really say they use H-1B hires to lower wages. That said, I am curious here - do you really think a 25 year old writing 40 hours of C++ needs to be paid 200K?
Regards, Nish
Blog: voidnish.wordpress.com Latest article: C++ 11 features in Visual C++ 2013 Preview
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I read that article, it seems to imply that they have an agreement to not hire each others' devs. It doesn't really say they use H-1B hires to lower wages. That said, I am curious here - do you really think a 25 year old writing 40 hours of C++ needs to be paid 200K?
Regards, Nish
Blog: voidnish.wordpress.com Latest article: C++ 11 features in Visual C++ 2013 Preview
The no hire agreements are a pretext to build a case under which firms can lobby for more H-1B's. The H-1B holders even if they come in making roughly the same as their US counterparts still have the effect of suppressing wages. Because obviously to hire similar native talent these companies would have to compete against each other for said talent - that competition would logically result in higher wages. I'll be honest the 200K figure is something I pulled out of thin air - not what I think people ought to make. That said should a 25 year old working 40 hours a week writing C++ get paid 200K+ a year? My answer is it depends. If that 25 year old is writing code that will literally have life/death consequences then yes I want the pay to be as much as it takes to find the best talent.
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The no hire agreements are a pretext to build a case under which firms can lobby for more H-1B's. The H-1B holders even if they come in making roughly the same as their US counterparts still have the effect of suppressing wages. Because obviously to hire similar native talent these companies would have to compete against each other for said talent - that competition would logically result in higher wages. I'll be honest the 200K figure is something I pulled out of thin air - not what I think people ought to make. That said should a 25 year old working 40 hours a week writing C++ get paid 200K+ a year? My answer is it depends. If that 25 year old is writing code that will literally have life/death consequences then yes I want the pay to be as much as it takes to find the best talent.
Thanks, some good points there. I've read anti H-1B sentiments on forums before, but many of those are posted by people with views so extreme that they dilute their own cause. So it was nice to read some well balanced opinions from you. I am mostly neutral about these things. I just fancy myself to be good enough to not be affected by wage suppression or other similar tactics. Of course, it's possible I may be wrong about myself :-)
Regards, Nish
Blog: voidnish.wordpress.com Latest article: C++ 11 features in Visual C++ 2013 Preview
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Thanks, some good points there. I've read anti H-1B sentiments on forums before, but many of those are posted by people with views so extreme that they dilute their own cause. So it was nice to read some well balanced opinions from you. I am mostly neutral about these things. I just fancy myself to be good enough to not be affected by wage suppression or other similar tactics. Of course, it's possible I may be wrong about myself :-)
Regards, Nish
Blog: voidnish.wordpress.com Latest article: C++ 11 features in Visual C++ 2013 Preview
To be clear I am not against the concept of H-1B visa's to the contrary I have met and worked with some fine folks from other countries. The concept is actually genius really - bring more smart talented people to the US... its a no brainer. What bothers me are the fallacies so commonly used to argue for more H-1B's. I would be happy to support that case if companies could find an argument that doesn't amount to US citizens are too stupid/lazy/stubborn/etc. to fill these jobs so we need to import somebody. I feel that companies are beginning to abuse the H-1B visa program, using it as a tool to suppress wages rather than bring smart talented people to the US.
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Well, that may or may not be so. My focal point in this thread was primarily how the big companies like Apple, Facebook, Microsoft, and Google all have salaries that are well above industry averages for their H-1B employees (contrary to what several people assumed). That side post I made was my personal experience where it's been a massive struggle to find even a few really good candidates. You need to go through dozens before you get a good one.
Regards, Nish
Blog: voidnish.wordpress.com Latest article: C++ 11 features in Visual C++ 2013 Preview
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I read that article, it seems to imply that they have an agreement to not hire each others' devs. It doesn't really say they use H-1B hires to lower wages. That said, I am curious here - do you really think a 25 year old writing 40 hours of C++ needs to be paid 200K?
Regards, Nish
Blog: voidnish.wordpress.com Latest article: C++ 11 features in Visual C++ 2013 Preview
Nish Sivakumar wrote:
do you really think a 25 year old writing 40 hours of C++ needs to be paid 200K?
Do you think a 29 year old needs to be one of the 100 richest people on the planet? A software developer, just like a plumber, cashier and day laborer needs to be paid what the market conditions dictate. Otherwise it isn't a "free market".
