Cancel - OK
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For several months now, one of our testers has been pushing to get the OK and Cancel buttons switched in every single dialog in our application (roughly 200 dialogs). His only reasoning for this is that the way we do it (OK in bottom right corner, Cancel to the left of it) is the opposite of what Microsoft does throughout Windows(Cancel in bottom right corner, OK to the left of it). That is his one and only reason. He fails to acknowledge that switching it will annoy the hell out of every single person that uses our software (thousands of people). The next time he brings it up I might punch him in the face. :mad:
The United States invariably does the right thing, after having exhausted every other alternative. -Winston Churchill America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between. -Oscar Wilde Wow, even the French showed a little more spine than that before they got their sh*t pushed in.[^] -Colin Mullikin
Now... before you go and do something crazy.... grab a camera and be sure to record it. We'll wait right here (for the vids)... :-D ;P
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For several months now, one of our testers has been pushing to get the OK and Cancel buttons switched in every single dialog in our application (roughly 200 dialogs). His only reasoning for this is that the way we do it (OK in bottom right corner, Cancel to the left of it) is the opposite of what Microsoft does throughout Windows(Cancel in bottom right corner, OK to the left of it). That is his one and only reason. He fails to acknowledge that switching it will annoy the hell out of every single person that uses our software (thousands of people). The next time he brings it up I might punch him in the face. :mad:
The United States invariably does the right thing, after having exhausted every other alternative. -Winston Churchill America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between. -Oscar Wilde Wow, even the French showed a little more spine than that before they got their sh*t pushed in.[^] -Colin Mullikin
Colin Mullikin wrote:
that uses our software (thousands of people).
So say you have 10,000 users. In 10 years how many of those same users will be using it? How many new users will be using it? If say 9,000 of 11,000 total users will still be using it have 10 years then I can see your argument. However if after 10 years there will be 5,000 original users and 95,000 new users then the other person has a valid argument. But other than that this is a requirement/improvement and not a bug so a QA role shouldn't be driving that sort of change anyways so their view is irrelevant and ignorable.
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This particular tester seems to think that he is a God among men when it comes to interfaces... X|
The United States invariably does the right thing, after having exhausted every other alternative. -Winston Churchill America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between. -Oscar Wilde Wow, even the French showed a little more spine than that before they got their sh*t pushed in.[^] -Colin Mullikin
Don't they all? ...I was giving some customers training recently and I actually noticed that some of the screens in part of one of our systems have the OK/CANCEL in one order and others have it reversed. :wtf:
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To add to what Jeremy and Sander said, how do you know your users are used to it? If they use more than one application on a regular basis, your inconsistency with the established standard could already be irritating them - just nobody told you because they thought it "was just them". Your QA guy has a point: standards are there for a reason - consistency!
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it. --- George Santayana (December 16, 1863 – September 26, 1952) Those who fail to clear history are doomed to explain it. --- OriginalGriff (February 24, 1959 – ∞)
We switched the order internally for one day, and every single person that used it clicked Cancel at least a dozen times when they meant to hit OK, including the tester that wants it switched. So, despite knowing about the change and being a regular user of other applications with the OK | Cancel standard, I had to consciously make sure I clicked the correct button, rather than using my "muscle memory" of clicking on the bottom right corner.
The United States invariably does the right thing, after having exhausted every other alternative. -Winston Churchill America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between. -Oscar Wilde Wow, even the French showed a little more spine than that before they got their sh*t pushed in.[^] -Colin Mullikin
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As a side note, I should mention that the initial design decision was made over a decade ago. Switching now benefits no one. A reason I have seen for Cancel | OK is that if the user does read the buttons, it results in fewer visual fixations. If they want to click OK, the result is two visual fixations: Cancel, OK, click. If the buttons are switched, the result is three visual fixations: OK, Cancel, OK, click.
The United States invariably does the right thing, after having exhausted every other alternative. -Winston Churchill America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between. -Oscar Wilde Wow, even the French showed a little more spine than that before they got their sh*t pushed in.[^] -Colin Mullikin
Colin Mullikin wrote:
A reason I have seen for Cancel | OK is ...
Good try but no I don't buy it. There are two types of users, novice and expert. A novice user fumbles about regardless. An expert relies on patterns. They don't see anything they just know (this is the very people you otherwise argued would be ignored by the change.) And if applicable in a standard data entry type application the placement should be irrelevant because a touch typist will use the keyboard and tab to get the ok rather than the mouse.
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As a side note, I should mention that the initial design decision was made over a decade ago. Switching now benefits no one. A reason I have seen for Cancel | OK is that if the user does read the buttons, it results in fewer visual fixations. If they want to click OK, the result is two visual fixations: Cancel, OK, click. If the buttons are switched, the result is three visual fixations: OK, Cancel, OK, click.
The United States invariably does the right thing, after having exhausted every other alternative. -Winston Churchill America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between. -Oscar Wilde Wow, even the French showed a little more spine than that before they got their sh*t pushed in.[^] -Colin Mullikin
Colin Mullikin wrote:
A reason I have seen for Cancel | OK is that if the user does read the buttons, it results in fewer visual fixations.
I don't see how that's humanly possible if they read the buttons. They still have to look at them.
Jeremy Falcon
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Colin Mullikin wrote:
A reason I have seen for Cancel | OK is ...
Good try but no I don't buy it. There are two types of users, novice and expert. A novice user fumbles about regardless. An expert relies on patterns. They don't see anything they just know (this is the very people you otherwise argued would be ignored by the change.) And if applicable in a standard data entry type application the placement should be irrelevant because a touch typist will use the keyboard and tab to get the ok rather than the mouse.
jschell wrote:
Good try but no I don't buy it.
Agreed.
Jeremy Falcon
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Colin Mullikin wrote:
that uses our software (thousands of people).
So say you have 10,000 users. In 10 years how many of those same users will be using it? How many new users will be using it? If say 9,000 of 11,000 total users will still be using it have 10 years then I can see your argument. However if after 10 years there will be 5,000 original users and 95,000 new users then the other person has a valid argument. But other than that this is a requirement/improvement and not a bug so a QA role shouldn't be driving that sort of change anyways so their view is irrelevant and ignorable.
jschell wrote:
If say 9,000 of 11,000 total users will still be using it have 10 years then I can see your argument.
However if after 10 years there will be 5,000 original users and 95,000 new users then the other person has a valid argument.We are growing, but no where near at that rate. I'm just spitballing numbers here, but I would guess we have roughly 15000-20000 users currently and gain a little less than 1000/year at our current pace.
jschell wrote:
But other than that this is a requirement/improvement and not a bug so a QA role shouldn't be driving that sort of change anyways so their view is irrelevant and ignorable.
We are a fairly small development team (~15 devs, 4 QA), so as much as I would like to agree with you, everyone kinda has their hands in everything.
The United States invariably does the right thing, after having exhausted every other alternative. -Winston Churchill America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between. -Oscar Wilde Wow, even the French showed a little more spine than that before they got their sh*t pushed in.[^] -Colin Mullikin
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We switched the order internally for one day, and every single person that used it clicked Cancel at least a dozen times when they meant to hit OK, including the tester that wants it switched. So, despite knowing about the change and being a regular user of other applications with the OK | Cancel standard, I had to consciously make sure I clicked the correct button, rather than using my "muscle memory" of clicking on the bottom right corner.
The United States invariably does the right thing, after having exhausted every other alternative. -Winston Churchill America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between. -Oscar Wilde Wow, even the French showed a little more spine than that before they got their sh*t pushed in.[^] -Colin Mullikin
Colin Mullikin wrote:
So, despite knowing about the change and being a regular user of other applications with the OK | Cancel standard, I had to consciously make sure I clicked the correct button, rather than using my "muscle memory" of clicking on the bottom right corner.
But they'll get used to it in a matter of days. That's like saying; "well we shot one foot off, may as well get the other." Tell them it's an enhanced feature to be Y3K compliant or something. :)
Jeremy Falcon
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Colin Mullikin wrote:
A reason I have seen for Cancel | OK is that if the user does read the buttons, it results in fewer visual fixations.
I don't see how that's humanly possible if they read the buttons. They still have to look at them.
Jeremy Falcon
Here is an article that better explains my reasoning: Clickety[^]
The United States invariably does the right thing, after having exhausted every other alternative. -Winston Churchill America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between. -Oscar Wilde Wow, even the French showed a little more spine than that before they got their sh*t pushed in.[^] -Colin Mullikin
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For several months now, one of our testers has been pushing to get the OK and Cancel buttons switched in every single dialog in our application (roughly 200 dialogs). His only reasoning for this is that the way we do it (OK in bottom right corner, Cancel to the left of it) is the opposite of what Microsoft does throughout Windows(Cancel in bottom right corner, OK to the left of it). That is his one and only reason. He fails to acknowledge that switching it will annoy the hell out of every single person that uses our software (thousands of people). The next time he brings it up I might punch him in the face. :mad:
The United States invariably does the right thing, after having exhausted every other alternative. -Winston Churchill America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between. -Oscar Wilde Wow, even the French showed a little more spine than that before they got their sh*t pushed in.[^] -Colin Mullikin
Remove the Cancel button. :-D Or how about one of those apps where the button moves whenever the mouse gets near it?
You'll never get very far if all you do is follow instructions.
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For several months now, one of our testers has been pushing to get the OK and Cancel buttons switched in every single dialog in our application (roughly 200 dialogs). His only reasoning for this is that the way we do it (OK in bottom right corner, Cancel to the left of it) is the opposite of what Microsoft does throughout Windows(Cancel in bottom right corner, OK to the left of it). That is his one and only reason. He fails to acknowledge that switching it will annoy the hell out of every single person that uses our software (thousands of people). The next time he brings it up I might punch him in the face. :mad:
The United States invariably does the right thing, after having exhausted every other alternative. -Winston Churchill America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between. -Oscar Wilde Wow, even the French showed a little more spine than that before they got their sh*t pushed in.[^] -Colin Mullikin
Acknowledge it is a bug and resolve it as "won't fix".
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Colin Mullikin wrote:
A reason I have seen for Cancel | OK is ...
Good try but no I don't buy it. There are two types of users, novice and expert. A novice user fumbles about regardless. An expert relies on patterns. They don't see anything they just know (this is the very people you otherwise argued would be ignored by the change.) And if applicable in a standard data entry type application the placement should be irrelevant because a touch typist will use the keyboard and tab to get the ok rather than the mouse.
In my opinion, this line of reasoning reinforces my point. A new user is going to look at the buttons regardless, so it doesn't matter what kind of system/other applications they are used to. An expert user, on the other hand, is relying on the OK button being in the corner. I would rather count on new users adapting to our standard than annoy every single existing customer by switching the placement.
The United States invariably does the right thing, after having exhausted every other alternative. -Winston Churchill America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between. -Oscar Wilde Wow, even the French showed a little more spine than that before they got their sh*t pushed in.[^] -Colin Mullikin
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For several months now, one of our testers has been pushing to get the OK and Cancel buttons switched in every single dialog in our application (roughly 200 dialogs). His only reasoning for this is that the way we do it (OK in bottom right corner, Cancel to the left of it) is the opposite of what Microsoft does throughout Windows(Cancel in bottom right corner, OK to the left of it). That is his one and only reason. He fails to acknowledge that switching it will annoy the hell out of every single person that uses our software (thousands of people). The next time he brings it up I might punch him in the face. :mad:
The United States invariably does the right thing, after having exhausted every other alternative. -Winston Churchill America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between. -Oscar Wilde Wow, even the French showed a little more spine than that before they got their sh*t pushed in.[^] -Colin Mullikin
Alternatively, you could acknowledge that this has been raised as a defect and put a ticket in your bug tracking system. Now, don't just treat this as meaning you've finished with your responsibility. The action to come out of this is to investigate the impact of reversing the change - and this means talking to your customers. I pretty much guarantee you that this is a feature that would be greeted with joy by them. Do the maths, and see what the cost of making the change would be. Finally, someone in authority needs to decide whether the cost of the change is worth it. If the answer is no, then you have the ticket to smack the tester with.
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For several months now, one of our testers has been pushing to get the OK and Cancel buttons switched in every single dialog in our application (roughly 200 dialogs). His only reasoning for this is that the way we do it (OK in bottom right corner, Cancel to the left of it) is the opposite of what Microsoft does throughout Windows(Cancel in bottom right corner, OK to the left of it). That is his one and only reason. He fails to acknowledge that switching it will annoy the hell out of every single person that uses our software (thousands of people). The next time he brings it up I might punch him in the face. :mad:
The United States invariably does the right thing, after having exhausted every other alternative. -Winston Churchill America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between. -Oscar Wilde Wow, even the French showed a little more spine than that before they got their sh*t pushed in.[^] -Colin Mullikin
Quote:
what Microsoft does throughout Windows(Cancel in bottom right corner, OK to the left of it).
Is just plain wrong. The OK or "moving forward" button should be at the bottom right. The Cancel or "give up and go back" button should be to the left of it similar in action and placement to Forward and Back buttons on browsers - except they are at the top.
- I would love to change the world, but they won’t give me the source code.
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Here is an article that better explains my reasoning: Clickety[^]
The United States invariably does the right thing, after having exhausted every other alternative. -Winston Churchill America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between. -Oscar Wilde Wow, even the French showed a little more spine than that before they got their sh*t pushed in.[^] -Colin Mullikin
Colin Mullikin wrote:
Here is an article that better explains my reasoning: Clickety[^]
I see the point you were trying to make now. Keep in mind that only really applies to when learning the software. All of what we're talking about does of course. Anyway... Here's the thing the article does not account for, platform consistency. The whole visual fixation thing only really applies to when the user is first learning the software and also assuming your app is the only one one the planet for the OS installed, which it's not. The eyes and brain will make shortcuts depending on, you guess it, consistency as the user gets used to the computer. In Windows I just know which button is which without even looking for that very reason. Now, here's my take on it in regards to what the guy was trying to say about workflow. Considering the OK button is the button that's used the most, and meant to confirm the whole intent of the dialog even existing in the first place, it should be the focal point of a dialog's action buttons, that's why it's the default with the thick border. The user does not have to worry about Cancel unless something went wrong, which the majority of the time shouldn't happen. Cancel is the bastard stepchild nobody loves. Boo hoo for Cancel, but get out the way because we have work to do. So in regards to workflow only, which the article speaks of,
text > Ok > donemakes more since thantext > Cancel > Ok > donewhen considering the purpose of what the button is even there for. Consistency man. Who cares about what what some guy wrote on his blog.Jeremy Falcon
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Quote:
what Microsoft does throughout Windows(Cancel in bottom right corner, OK to the left of it).
Is just plain wrong. The OK or "moving forward" button should be at the bottom right. The Cancel or "give up and go back" button should be to the left of it similar in action and placement to Forward and Back buttons on browsers - except they are at the top.
- I would love to change the world, but they won’t give me the source code.
-
Quote:
what Microsoft does throughout Windows(Cancel in bottom right corner, OK to the left of it).
Is just plain wrong. The OK or "moving forward" button should be at the bottom right. The Cancel or "give up and go back" button should be to the left of it similar in action and placement to Forward and Back buttons on browsers - except they are at the top.
- I would love to change the world, but they won’t give me the source code.
This is another line of reasoning that I have seen before that I definitely agree with. Let me just get Uncle Bill on the phone and we can have this whole mess straightened out in no time. ;P
The United States invariably does the right thing, after having exhausted every other alternative. -Winston Churchill America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between. -Oscar Wilde Wow, even the French showed a little more spine than that before they got their sh*t pushed in.[^] -Colin Mullikin
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For several months now, one of our testers has been pushing to get the OK and Cancel buttons switched in every single dialog in our application (roughly 200 dialogs). His only reasoning for this is that the way we do it (OK in bottom right corner, Cancel to the left of it) is the opposite of what Microsoft does throughout Windows(Cancel in bottom right corner, OK to the left of it). That is his one and only reason. He fails to acknowledge that switching it will annoy the hell out of every single person that uses our software (thousands of people). The next time he brings it up I might punch him in the face. :mad:
The United States invariably does the right thing, after having exhausted every other alternative. -Winston Churchill America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between. -Oscar Wilde Wow, even the French showed a little more spine than that before they got their sh*t pushed in.[^] -Colin Mullikin
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Colin Mullikin wrote:
Here is an article that better explains my reasoning: Clickety[^]
I see the point you were trying to make now. Keep in mind that only really applies to when learning the software. All of what we're talking about does of course. Anyway... Here's the thing the article does not account for, platform consistency. The whole visual fixation thing only really applies to when the user is first learning the software and also assuming your app is the only one one the planet for the OS installed, which it's not. The eyes and brain will make shortcuts depending on, you guess it, consistency as the user gets used to the computer. In Windows I just know which button is which without even looking for that very reason. Now, here's my take on it in regards to what the guy was trying to say about workflow. Considering the OK button is the button that's used the most, and meant to confirm the whole intent of the dialog even existing in the first place, it should be the focal point of a dialog's action buttons, that's why it's the default with the thick border. The user does not have to worry about Cancel unless something went wrong, which the majority of the time shouldn't happen. Cancel is the bastard stepchild nobody loves. Boo hoo for Cancel, but get out the way because we have work to do. So in regards to workflow only, which the article speaks of,
text > Ok > donemakes more since thantext > Cancel > Ok > donewhen considering the purpose of what the button is even there for. Consistency man. Who cares about what what some guy wrote on his blog.Jeremy Falcon
While I pretty much agree with everything you just said, the key is consistency. We have been consistently doing it this way for over a decade.
The United States invariably does the right thing, after having exhausted every other alternative. -Winston Churchill America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between. -Oscar Wilde Wow, even the French showed a little more spine than that before they got their sh*t pushed in.[^] -Colin Mullikin
