Cancel - OK
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Colin Mullikin wrote:
A reason I have seen for Cancel | OK is that if the user does read the buttons, it results in fewer visual fixations.
I don't see how that's humanly possible if they read the buttons. They still have to look at them.
Jeremy Falcon
Here is an article that better explains my reasoning: Clickety[^]
The United States invariably does the right thing, after having exhausted every other alternative. -Winston Churchill America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between. -Oscar Wilde Wow, even the French showed a little more spine than that before they got their sh*t pushed in.[^] -Colin Mullikin
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For several months now, one of our testers has been pushing to get the OK and Cancel buttons switched in every single dialog in our application (roughly 200 dialogs). His only reasoning for this is that the way we do it (OK in bottom right corner, Cancel to the left of it) is the opposite of what Microsoft does throughout Windows(Cancel in bottom right corner, OK to the left of it). That is his one and only reason. He fails to acknowledge that switching it will annoy the hell out of every single person that uses our software (thousands of people). The next time he brings it up I might punch him in the face. :mad:
The United States invariably does the right thing, after having exhausted every other alternative. -Winston Churchill America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between. -Oscar Wilde Wow, even the French showed a little more spine than that before they got their sh*t pushed in.[^] -Colin Mullikin
Remove the Cancel button. :-D Or how about one of those apps where the button moves whenever the mouse gets near it?
You'll never get very far if all you do is follow instructions.
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For several months now, one of our testers has been pushing to get the OK and Cancel buttons switched in every single dialog in our application (roughly 200 dialogs). His only reasoning for this is that the way we do it (OK in bottom right corner, Cancel to the left of it) is the opposite of what Microsoft does throughout Windows(Cancel in bottom right corner, OK to the left of it). That is his one and only reason. He fails to acknowledge that switching it will annoy the hell out of every single person that uses our software (thousands of people). The next time he brings it up I might punch him in the face. :mad:
The United States invariably does the right thing, after having exhausted every other alternative. -Winston Churchill America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between. -Oscar Wilde Wow, even the French showed a little more spine than that before they got their sh*t pushed in.[^] -Colin Mullikin
Acknowledge it is a bug and resolve it as "won't fix".
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Colin Mullikin wrote:
A reason I have seen for Cancel | OK is ...
Good try but no I don't buy it. There are two types of users, novice and expert. A novice user fumbles about regardless. An expert relies on patterns. They don't see anything they just know (this is the very people you otherwise argued would be ignored by the change.) And if applicable in a standard data entry type application the placement should be irrelevant because a touch typist will use the keyboard and tab to get the ok rather than the mouse.
In my opinion, this line of reasoning reinforces my point. A new user is going to look at the buttons regardless, so it doesn't matter what kind of system/other applications they are used to. An expert user, on the other hand, is relying on the OK button being in the corner. I would rather count on new users adapting to our standard than annoy every single existing customer by switching the placement.
The United States invariably does the right thing, after having exhausted every other alternative. -Winston Churchill America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between. -Oscar Wilde Wow, even the French showed a little more spine than that before they got their sh*t pushed in.[^] -Colin Mullikin
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For several months now, one of our testers has been pushing to get the OK and Cancel buttons switched in every single dialog in our application (roughly 200 dialogs). His only reasoning for this is that the way we do it (OK in bottom right corner, Cancel to the left of it) is the opposite of what Microsoft does throughout Windows(Cancel in bottom right corner, OK to the left of it). That is his one and only reason. He fails to acknowledge that switching it will annoy the hell out of every single person that uses our software (thousands of people). The next time he brings it up I might punch him in the face. :mad:
The United States invariably does the right thing, after having exhausted every other alternative. -Winston Churchill America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between. -Oscar Wilde Wow, even the French showed a little more spine than that before they got their sh*t pushed in.[^] -Colin Mullikin
Alternatively, you could acknowledge that this has been raised as a defect and put a ticket in your bug tracking system. Now, don't just treat this as meaning you've finished with your responsibility. The action to come out of this is to investigate the impact of reversing the change - and this means talking to your customers. I pretty much guarantee you that this is a feature that would be greeted with joy by them. Do the maths, and see what the cost of making the change would be. Finally, someone in authority needs to decide whether the cost of the change is worth it. If the answer is no, then you have the ticket to smack the tester with.
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For several months now, one of our testers has been pushing to get the OK and Cancel buttons switched in every single dialog in our application (roughly 200 dialogs). His only reasoning for this is that the way we do it (OK in bottom right corner, Cancel to the left of it) is the opposite of what Microsoft does throughout Windows(Cancel in bottom right corner, OK to the left of it). That is his one and only reason. He fails to acknowledge that switching it will annoy the hell out of every single person that uses our software (thousands of people). The next time he brings it up I might punch him in the face. :mad:
The United States invariably does the right thing, after having exhausted every other alternative. -Winston Churchill America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between. -Oscar Wilde Wow, even the French showed a little more spine than that before they got their sh*t pushed in.[^] -Colin Mullikin
Quote:
what Microsoft does throughout Windows(Cancel in bottom right corner, OK to the left of it).
Is just plain wrong. The OK or "moving forward" button should be at the bottom right. The Cancel or "give up and go back" button should be to the left of it similar in action and placement to Forward and Back buttons on browsers - except they are at the top.
- I would love to change the world, but they won’t give me the source code.
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Here is an article that better explains my reasoning: Clickety[^]
The United States invariably does the right thing, after having exhausted every other alternative. -Winston Churchill America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between. -Oscar Wilde Wow, even the French showed a little more spine than that before they got their sh*t pushed in.[^] -Colin Mullikin
Colin Mullikin wrote:
Here is an article that better explains my reasoning: Clickety[^]
I see the point you were trying to make now. Keep in mind that only really applies to when learning the software. All of what we're talking about does of course. Anyway... Here's the thing the article does not account for, platform consistency. The whole visual fixation thing only really applies to when the user is first learning the software and also assuming your app is the only one one the planet for the OS installed, which it's not. The eyes and brain will make shortcuts depending on, you guess it, consistency as the user gets used to the computer. In Windows I just know which button is which without even looking for that very reason. Now, here's my take on it in regards to what the guy was trying to say about workflow. Considering the OK button is the button that's used the most, and meant to confirm the whole intent of the dialog even existing in the first place, it should be the focal point of a dialog's action buttons, that's why it's the default with the thick border. The user does not have to worry about Cancel unless something went wrong, which the majority of the time shouldn't happen. Cancel is the bastard stepchild nobody loves. Boo hoo for Cancel, but get out the way because we have work to do. So in regards to workflow only, which the article speaks of,
text > Ok > donemakes more since thantext > Cancel > Ok > donewhen considering the purpose of what the button is even there for. Consistency man. Who cares about what what some guy wrote on his blog.Jeremy Falcon
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Quote:
what Microsoft does throughout Windows(Cancel in bottom right corner, OK to the left of it).
Is just plain wrong. The OK or "moving forward" button should be at the bottom right. The Cancel or "give up and go back" button should be to the left of it similar in action and placement to Forward and Back buttons on browsers - except they are at the top.
- I would love to change the world, but they won’t give me the source code.
-
Quote:
what Microsoft does throughout Windows(Cancel in bottom right corner, OK to the left of it).
Is just plain wrong. The OK or "moving forward" button should be at the bottom right. The Cancel or "give up and go back" button should be to the left of it similar in action and placement to Forward and Back buttons on browsers - except they are at the top.
- I would love to change the world, but they won’t give me the source code.
This is another line of reasoning that I have seen before that I definitely agree with. Let me just get Uncle Bill on the phone and we can have this whole mess straightened out in no time. ;P
The United States invariably does the right thing, after having exhausted every other alternative. -Winston Churchill America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between. -Oscar Wilde Wow, even the French showed a little more spine than that before they got their sh*t pushed in.[^] -Colin Mullikin
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For several months now, one of our testers has been pushing to get the OK and Cancel buttons switched in every single dialog in our application (roughly 200 dialogs). His only reasoning for this is that the way we do it (OK in bottom right corner, Cancel to the left of it) is the opposite of what Microsoft does throughout Windows(Cancel in bottom right corner, OK to the left of it). That is his one and only reason. He fails to acknowledge that switching it will annoy the hell out of every single person that uses our software (thousands of people). The next time he brings it up I might punch him in the face. :mad:
The United States invariably does the right thing, after having exhausted every other alternative. -Winston Churchill America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between. -Oscar Wilde Wow, even the French showed a little more spine than that before they got their sh*t pushed in.[^] -Colin Mullikin
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Colin Mullikin wrote:
Here is an article that better explains my reasoning: Clickety[^]
I see the point you were trying to make now. Keep in mind that only really applies to when learning the software. All of what we're talking about does of course. Anyway... Here's the thing the article does not account for, platform consistency. The whole visual fixation thing only really applies to when the user is first learning the software and also assuming your app is the only one one the planet for the OS installed, which it's not. The eyes and brain will make shortcuts depending on, you guess it, consistency as the user gets used to the computer. In Windows I just know which button is which without even looking for that very reason. Now, here's my take on it in regards to what the guy was trying to say about workflow. Considering the OK button is the button that's used the most, and meant to confirm the whole intent of the dialog even existing in the first place, it should be the focal point of a dialog's action buttons, that's why it's the default with the thick border. The user does not have to worry about Cancel unless something went wrong, which the majority of the time shouldn't happen. Cancel is the bastard stepchild nobody loves. Boo hoo for Cancel, but get out the way because we have work to do. So in regards to workflow only, which the article speaks of,
text > Ok > donemakes more since thantext > Cancel > Ok > donewhen considering the purpose of what the button is even there for. Consistency man. Who cares about what what some guy wrote on his blog.Jeremy Falcon
While I pretty much agree with everything you just said, the key is consistency. We have been consistently doing it this way for over a decade.
The United States invariably does the right thing, after having exhausted every other alternative. -Winston Churchill America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between. -Oscar Wilde Wow, even the French showed a little more spine than that before they got their sh*t pushed in.[^] -Colin Mullikin
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The real problem occurs if you wipe, then pull up trousers, then wipe again... :~
The United States invariably does the right thing, after having exhausted every other alternative. -Winston Churchill America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between. -Oscar Wilde Wow, even the French showed a little more spine than that before they got their sh*t pushed in.[^] -Colin Mullikin
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Quote:
what Microsoft does throughout Windows(Cancel in bottom right corner, OK to the left of it).
Is just plain wrong. The OK or "moving forward" button should be at the bottom right. The Cancel or "give up and go back" button should be to the left of it similar in action and placement to Forward and Back buttons on browsers - except they are at the top.
- I would love to change the world, but they won’t give me the source code.
Forogar wrote:
Is just plain wrong. The OK or "moving forward" button should be at the bottom right. The Cancel or "give up and go back" button should be to the left of it similar in action and placement to Forward and Back buttons on browsers - except they are at the top.
And people should fish with a rifle instead of a fishing pole. It's fish hunting season. Point being, just because something is done one way in a different environment doesn't mean it should be done that way everywhere.
Jeremy Falcon
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While I pretty much agree with everything you just said, the key is consistency. We have been consistently doing it this way for over a decade.
The United States invariably does the right thing, after having exhausted every other alternative. -Winston Churchill America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between. -Oscar Wilde Wow, even the French showed a little more spine than that before they got their sh*t pushed in.[^] -Colin Mullikin
Colin Mullikin wrote:
We have been consistently doing it this way for over a decade.
I get it, but I don't believe there is every a valid reason for continuing to do something wrong. I realize you got users to deal with that may even not care as much as devs do, but I'd still fix it.
Jeremy Falcon
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Forogar wrote:
Is just plain wrong. The OK or "moving forward" button should be at the bottom right. The Cancel or "give up and go back" button should be to the left of it similar in action and placement to Forward and Back buttons on browsers - except they are at the top.
And people should fish with a rifle instead of a fishing pole. It's fish hunting season. Point being, just because something is done one way in a different environment doesn't mean it should be done that way everywhere.
Jeremy Falcon
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For several months now, one of our testers has been pushing to get the OK and Cancel buttons switched in every single dialog in our application (roughly 200 dialogs). His only reasoning for this is that the way we do it (OK in bottom right corner, Cancel to the left of it) is the opposite of what Microsoft does throughout Windows(Cancel in bottom right corner, OK to the left of it). That is his one and only reason. He fails to acknowledge that switching it will annoy the hell out of every single person that uses our software (thousands of people). The next time he brings it up I might punch him in the face. :mad:
The United States invariably does the right thing, after having exhausted every other alternative. -Winston Churchill America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between. -Oscar Wilde Wow, even the French showed a little more spine than that before they got their sh*t pushed in.[^] -Colin Mullikin
Microsoft published a design guide, in the before the before, that suggested putting the OK button on the right was correct and that most user expected that. Then when Microsoft switched to placing OK buttons on the left, the guide mysteriously disappeared. It was a well written research article, to this day I wish I had printed it. My personal opinion is that the confirmation should be in the same location every time and should not float. Placing it on the left makes it float. For example on an OK only dialog the OK button will be in a different place from the OK Button in an OK Cancel Dialog. Long story short, just because Microsoft does something doesn't make it correct. More importantly I agree with your button placement, and furthermore I like using the word furthermore.
Need custom software developed? I do custom programming based primarily on MS tools with an emphasis on C# development and consulting. "And they, since they Were not the one dead, turned to their affairs" -- Robert Frost "All users always want Excel" --Ennis Lynch
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For several months now, one of our testers has been pushing to get the OK and Cancel buttons switched in every single dialog in our application (roughly 200 dialogs). His only reasoning for this is that the way we do it (OK in bottom right corner, Cancel to the left of it) is the opposite of what Microsoft does throughout Windows(Cancel in bottom right corner, OK to the left of it). That is his one and only reason. He fails to acknowledge that switching it will annoy the hell out of every single person that uses our software (thousands of people). The next time he brings it up I might punch him in the face. :mad:
The United States invariably does the right thing, after having exhausted every other alternative. -Winston Churchill America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between. -Oscar Wilde Wow, even the French showed a little more spine than that before they got their sh*t pushed in.[^] -Colin Mullikin
I'd be all for leaving it as it is, with cancel selected as the default button. My experience is that users really don't tend to like things moving around, unless they have asked for it. That said don't sweat the small stuff - I know that's way easier said than done. If someone is pushing in such a big way for what amounts to a small change and it does not make sense - make sure you email them explaining why you think it is not such a good idea and let them go ahead with it. That way you have yourself covered if criticism comes your way for the change.
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”
― Christopher Hitchens
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For several months now, one of our testers has been pushing to get the OK and Cancel buttons switched in every single dialog in our application (roughly 200 dialogs). His only reasoning for this is that the way we do it (OK in bottom right corner, Cancel to the left of it) is the opposite of what Microsoft does throughout Windows(Cancel in bottom right corner, OK to the left of it). That is his one and only reason. He fails to acknowledge that switching it will annoy the hell out of every single person that uses our software (thousands of people). The next time he brings it up I might punch him in the face. :mad:
The United States invariably does the right thing, after having exhausted every other alternative. -Winston Churchill America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between. -Oscar Wilde Wow, even the French showed a little more spine than that before they got their sh*t pushed in.[^] -Colin Mullikin
Depends on the structure of your code as to how much work it would be, but you could add a persistent option to the software that allow users to select which standard they want to use: the new and improved Microsoft standard, or the old default way that it has always been. Depending on the option selected, just switch the buttons appropriately. Now your tester is happy, and probably also a good portion of your users who are used to the Microsoft standard.
-NP Never underestimate the creativity of the end-user.
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The real problem occurs if you wipe, then pull up trousers, then wipe again... :~
The United States invariably does the right thing, after having exhausted every other alternative. -Winston Churchill America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between. -Oscar Wilde Wow, even the French showed a little more spine than that before they got their sh*t pushed in.[^] -Colin Mullikin
That depends whether you wanted to get rid of the stain on the back of your pants, or the wipe is your trousers wiping your sht covered @rse. And member rse just got an email...
I will never again mention that Dalek Dave was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel.
The console is a black place [taken from Q&A]
How to ask a question -
I'd be all for leaving it as it is, with cancel selected as the default button. My experience is that users really don't tend to like things moving around, unless they have asked for it. That said don't sweat the small stuff - I know that's way easier said than done. If someone is pushing in such a big way for what amounts to a small change and it does not make sense - make sure you email them explaining why you think it is not such a good idea and let them go ahead with it. That way you have yourself covered if criticism comes your way for the change.
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”
― Christopher Hitchens
Don't worry, there has been copious* amounts of discussion on this subject. Everyone knows where everyone else stands on the matter. :laugh: Also, I'm not even the dev that has to deal with making this change. I'm just the one that tends to get into the design debates with this tester. We have had quite a few battles with one another. *Side note: I love using that word.
The United States invariably does the right thing, after having exhausted every other alternative. -Winston Churchill America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between. -Oscar Wilde Wow, even the French showed a little more spine than that before they got their sh*t pushed in.[^] -Colin Mullikin