Cancel - OK
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I've lost interest. Chances of me actually reading this: 0.5%.
Jeremy Falcon
LMAO kids these days have no attention span whatsoever.
"Seize the day" - Horace "It's not what he doesn't know that scares me; it's what he knows for sure that just ain't so!" - Will Rogers, said by him about Herbert Hoover
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The “design guide” did not disappear; for my copy it morphed into the Windows “User Experience Interaction Guidelines for Windows 7 and Windows Vista”; an 882 page tome that I found quite useful when I designed and documented my most recent Windows apps (e.g. does one “click the xxx button” or just “click xxx”?). And it’s still (OK, Cancel); (Yes, No) …. From page 503 of the “new” MS design guide: Present the commit buttons in the following order: OK/[Do it]/Yes [Don't do it]/No Cancel Apply (if present) Help (if present) (Some of my apps are used by "farm boys" and "old-timers"; they've had no complaints when I followed the MS "standard").
I am referring to the fact that there was one from MS that stated (Cancel | OK) was the preferred method. I would have never noticed had it not "changed". Just another case of MS doing something different to be different. Of course, design guides and research documents going be different.
Need custom software developed? I do custom programming based primarily on MS tools with an emphasis on C# development and consulting. "And they, since they Were not the one dead, turned to their affairs" -- Robert Frost "All users always want Excel" --Ennis Lynch
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LMAO kids these days have no attention span whatsoever.
"Seize the day" - Horace "It's not what he doesn't know that scares me; it's what he knows for sure that just ain't so!" - Will Rogers, said by him about Herbert Hoover
I have a long one, I just don't value what you have to say. Ta ta.
Jeremy Falcon
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For several months now, one of our testers has been pushing to get the OK and Cancel buttons switched in every single dialog in our application (roughly 200 dialogs). His only reasoning for this is that the way we do it (OK in bottom right corner, Cancel to the left of it) is the opposite of what Microsoft does throughout Windows(Cancel in bottom right corner, OK to the left of it). That is his one and only reason. He fails to acknowledge that switching it will annoy the hell out of every single person that uses our software (thousands of people). The next time he brings it up I might punch him in the face. :mad:
The United States invariably does the right thing, after having exhausted every other alternative. -Winston Churchill America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between. -Oscar Wilde Wow, even the French showed a little more spine than that before they got their sh*t pushed in.[^] -Colin Mullikin
In consistency with the OS, you should switch the buttons, in consistency with the current user base, you should punch his face... ;P
CEO at: - Rafaga Systems - Para Facturas - Modern Components for the moment...
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Colin Mullikin wrote:
We have been consistently doing it this way for over a decade.
I get it, but I don't believe there is every a valid reason for continuing to do something wrong. I realize you got users to deal with that may even not care as much as devs do, but I'd still fix it.
Jeremy Falcon
A few random thoughts come to my mind... I've always hated how WinZip randomly changes the buttons on their trial software when it first loads, tricking me into hitting the Buy button. If you write Windows software, you should stick with the conventions established by Windows. Major software vendors have made major changes (like swapping the buttons) when they have new major release of their software. Maybe that's the time to change button positions, if it's decided they need to be changed. I'm guessing many users will curse the first time they hit the wrong button, and maybe the second or third time. But after that they'll have learned the new positioning. They learned in the first time they used the software and had to realize it was opposite of how all their other software does it. People may be stupid, but they're usually not THAT stupid. I really hate keyboards that move around the Insert, Delete, and other keys found above the arrows. I'm really glad someone challenged the position of the starter on cars. I'd hate to have to stand in front of the car and crank a handle just because it was always done that way. And remember rotary telephones? :-) Things will forever evolve and we must regularly update things to keep up with the continual change. Case in point, if you want your application to work well on a touch device, you'll need to make things easier to tap with a finger (generally larger) and within reach of a thumb. And the interface usually needs to be simplified. Evolution.
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I agree with him. You should always try and follow what the OS does. And since your app's a Windows app, you need to do what Windows does, which is always OK on the left and Cancel to the right. It'll make it way way easier for your users when your app starts behaving like the rest of the OS.
Regards, Nish
Blog: voidnish.wordpress.com Latest article: C++ 11 features in Visual C++ 2013 Preview
It doesn't matter if he's right or not. He's supposed to be testing functionality, not commenting on UI style. If the OK or Cancel buttons don't perform the desired function, then and only then should he comment on the buttons, and ONLY if those buttons are broken. He's a tester, not a UI designer.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013 -
Here is an article that better explains my reasoning: Clickety[^]
The United States invariably does the right thing, after having exhausted every other alternative. -Winston Churchill America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between. -Oscar Wilde Wow, even the French showed a little more spine than that before they got their sh*t pushed in.[^] -Colin Mullikin
From the article: "...but you cannot ignore the fact that users will look at all of their options before they choose which action to take." The article may be correct, but the author provides no proof. Was an eye tracking study done? I generally don't look at all the options if the first one I see is the correct one. And I'm guessing that OK and Cancel buttons result in very fast fixations because our brains are doing visual pattern matching against two very common and distinct options.
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It doesn't matter if he's right or not. He's supposed to be testing functionality, not commenting on UI style. If the OK or Cancel buttons don't perform the desired function, then and only then should he comment on the buttons, and ONLY if those buttons are broken. He's a tester, not a UI designer.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
He's a tester, not a UI designer.
Most agile environments have requirements analysts who double up as first level QA. So if that's the case here, the tester is also the guy who can dictate specs.
Regards, Nish
Blog: voidnish.wordpress.com Latest article: C++ 11 features in Visual C++ 2013 Preview
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In every other application it is the reverse OK on left cancel on right, so I agree with him. I think users will inevitable hit Cancel when they mean OK on your app. If they are using your app more than other apps, then they will accidentally hit Cancel on the other apps when they mean OK. So this is a valid and a smart reasoning.
Poor OP. Came here for sympathy, and got just the opposite :-)
Regards, Nish
Blog: voidnish.wordpress.com Latest article: C++ 11 features in Visual C++ 2013 Preview
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A few random thoughts come to my mind... I've always hated how WinZip randomly changes the buttons on their trial software when it first loads, tricking me into hitting the Buy button. If you write Windows software, you should stick with the conventions established by Windows. Major software vendors have made major changes (like swapping the buttons) when they have new major release of their software. Maybe that's the time to change button positions, if it's decided they need to be changed. I'm guessing many users will curse the first time they hit the wrong button, and maybe the second or third time. But after that they'll have learned the new positioning. They learned in the first time they used the software and had to realize it was opposite of how all their other software does it. People may be stupid, but they're usually not THAT stupid. I really hate keyboards that move around the Insert, Delete, and other keys found above the arrows. I'm really glad someone challenged the position of the starter on cars. I'd hate to have to stand in front of the car and crank a handle just because it was always done that way. And remember rotary telephones? :-) Things will forever evolve and we must regularly update things to keep up with the continual change. Case in point, if you want your application to work well on a touch device, you'll need to make things easier to tap with a finger (generally larger) and within reach of a thumb. And the interface usually needs to be simplified. Evolution.
You totally get where I'm coming from. If intelligent thought is the reason behind the change then I'm all for it. It's how we improve the world. If it's laziness or "just because" then I'm usually against it. In my experience, people that typically get the buttons backwards suck at UI design overall, as it's due to just not studying UI in the first place. It's like a shortcut I use to know if they have an idea of what they're doing or not.
Jeremy Falcon
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Standards and consistency should be handled in the design phase - NOT the test phase. The tester should just STFU, especially if this issue has been previously marked as "not a bug", or moved to the product backlog.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
The tester should just STFU, especially if this issue has been previously marked as "not a bug"
Oh I agree with you there, especially if the original design pre dates the flavour of UI design. I just think the original design is flawed as I am pretty sure the dialog layout was set in the late 80s.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity RAH
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For several months now, one of our testers has been pushing to get the OK and Cancel buttons switched in every single dialog in our application (roughly 200 dialogs). His only reasoning for this is that the way we do it (OK in bottom right corner, Cancel to the left of it) is the opposite of what Microsoft does throughout Windows(Cancel in bottom right corner, OK to the left of it). That is his one and only reason. He fails to acknowledge that switching it will annoy the hell out of every single person that uses our software (thousands of people). The next time he brings it up I might punch him in the face. :mad:
The United States invariably does the right thing, after having exhausted every other alternative. -Winston Churchill America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between. -Oscar Wilde Wow, even the French showed a little more spine than that before they got their sh*t pushed in.[^] -Colin Mullikin
Ask him t present a full proposal, with costing.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
The tester should just STFU, especially if this issue has been previously marked as "not a bug"
Oh I agree with you there, especially if the original design pre dates the flavour of UI design. I just think the original design is flawed as I am pretty sure the dialog layout was set in the late 80s.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity RAH
When you consider the intended role of the tester, and his operational charter, my point renders the question of button order irrelevant.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
-----
You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
-----
When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013 -
John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
He's a tester, not a UI designer.
Most agile environments have requirements analysts who double up as first level QA. So if that's the case here, the tester is also the guy who can dictate specs.
Regards, Nish
Blog: voidnish.wordpress.com Latest article: C++ 11 features in Visual C++ 2013 Preview
I've never participated in an environment where a *tester* was expected to dictate functional specs, and while testers may often question control layout, it's handled via email, and is NOT posted as a bug unless the control overlaps another control or inhibits other form functionality.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
-----
You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
-----
When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013 -
In my opinion, this line of reasoning reinforces my point. A new user is going to look at the buttons regardless, so it doesn't matter what kind of system/other applications they are used to. An expert user, on the other hand, is relying on the OK button being in the corner. I would rather count on new users adapting to our standard than annoy every single existing customer by switching the placement.
The United States invariably does the right thing, after having exhausted every other alternative. -Winston Churchill America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between. -Oscar Wilde Wow, even the French showed a little more spine than that before they got their sh*t pushed in.[^] -Colin Mullikin
Colin Mullikin wrote:
An expert user, on the other hand, is relying on the OK button being in the corner.
That however depends on the application. As I said a 'data entry' type application most users will not use the mouse. As a more specific example if the application is a call center app and the call center people are being monitored then how long it takes them to use the application goes into the per call time, and better times are better. Which means that the better ones will use the keyboard. And the ones that are not so good, probably should. But your application might not fall into that category.
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For several months now, one of our testers has been pushing to get the OK and Cancel buttons switched in every single dialog in our application (roughly 200 dialogs). His only reasoning for this is that the way we do it (OK in bottom right corner, Cancel to the left of it) is the opposite of what Microsoft does throughout Windows(Cancel in bottom right corner, OK to the left of it). That is his one and only reason. He fails to acknowledge that switching it will annoy the hell out of every single person that uses our software (thousands of people). The next time he brings it up I might punch him in the face. :mad:
The United States invariably does the right thing, after having exhausted every other alternative. -Winston Churchill America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between. -Oscar Wilde Wow, even the French showed a little more spine than that before they got their sh*t pushed in.[^] -Colin Mullikin
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Colin Mullikin wrote:
God among men
I think I worked with the same guy. The guy I used to work with would submit bug reports with really detailed information such as "The button text is wrong". Just figuring that we would know which button he was talking about and what text... :confused:
Wes Aday wrote:
The guy I used to work with would submit bug reports with really detailed information such as "The button text is wrong". Just figuring that we would know which button he was talking about and what text...
Hahahaha, I used to work with a QA department that would frequently write, "I was doing something when the program crashed." We were so happy when one of the programmers transferred to the QA department and could give us accurate, step by step instructions on how to duplicate a bug. He really transferred because our manager would always harass him and he wanted to stick it to the manager by pointing out all the bugs she wanted swept under the rug. Her status reports always made it seem that everything was working perfectly, but he knew all the places he could lean on the code to make it fail and provided the documentation to prove he wasn't making them up. He was out to get revenge on her, but he knew the documentation would help us at the same time.
Psychosis at 10 Film at 11 Those who do not remember the past, are doomed to repeat it. Those who do not remember the past, cannot build upon it.
