Time for a new programming language paradigm
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I'm pretty sure that you implied that I was cruel a while back when I was teasing Pete... I sir, am not even in your league! I bow in your presence. :cool:
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. ~ George Washington
:cool:
cheers Chris Maunder
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Ennis Ray Lynch, Jr. wrote:
Plus, in my opinion, the ability to see on screen without scrolling the maximum amount of logic is paramount in writing good systems. The eyes move orders of magnitude faster than scrolling. I have seen some beautifully written, well documented code that was nearly impossible to trouble shoot for all the novel in the code.
I have seen all too much code that took most the screen to display a simple concept. E.g., if ( a = b ) { c = d; } else { if ( p == q ) q = r; }; This coder use spacing to up his LOC/day count. Comprehension....well...that leaves a lot to be desired. And I agree about beautifully written code. I saw a 1000 character program written in one line with no white space. Couldn't begin to understand what it was doing.
Ennis Ray Lynch, Jr. wrote:
So I had a lot of practice spotting poorly placed operators. I would much rather spend one day every other year looking for a misplaced semi-colon than spend the time adding verbosity.
If there is time, and no pressure, a misplaced semi-colon isn't a problem. But, add pressure, such as commodities trading, and you have 2 minutes to find and fix the bug, well....pass the Maalox please.
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BobJanova wrote:
if(a == 5) { DoSomeStuff(); }
Take away one '=' in the if statement, put it in a seldom used error recovery routine and you have the bug I spent six months chasing. The mental skills required to spot the difference between '=' and '==' is difficult overcome when you are under pressure. I also chased a bug where a statement was inserted between the closing parenthesis and the opening brace, thus changing the entire program flow. (if (a == b) dosomethingnew; { dosomething }; What I want is to be able to look at a piece of code and accurately comprehend the meaning, intention and function of what the original programmer was trying to convey. "if a is 5..." can be a lot clearer than "if (a=5)..." in many cases. And, I'm not suggesting allowing mixed language constructs that do the same thing, although that is not out of the picture. And, as you stated so well, the machine requires precision. I agree! The question I'm raising is: How can we design a programming language that is easier, more accurate, less error prone, easier to modify, etc.?
Yes, well a bare equal-sign should be an error; assignment should be with
:=, a la Pascal and others.You'll never get very far if all you do is follow instructions.
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Just spent the better part of two weeks trying to find a bug in a Linux bash script (missing ".") and I'm tired of looking for things like a missing equal sign in the middle of an C if statement, missing period in a PHP script, lower case variable name mixed with an upper case variable name, missing brace in a C++ object, undelared function or operator overloading....get my drift?...in other people's code. (Being the perfect programmer, I never make those kinds of mistakes! And I have swamp property if you're interested.) All too many programming errors are occurring because programming languages, like C, C++, java, etc., trace their origins back to the days when terseness was a desirable quality. Printing a program listing on an ASR 33 teletype at 10 CPS on a single threaded machine made using braces in C if statements instead of a clear if-then-else-endif highly desirable. (Remember the origins of C?) Those extra 9 characters took TIME to read in and to print out. And then there's issues of language diversity. C, C++, PHP, Java, Javascript, HTML, CSS, SQL, and other languages--what works where? So, here's a few of my thoughts: (And please don't be too anal about my examples--I really want to hear how programming languages could be advanced so that I can be more productive.) Among other things, a New Programming Language should: 1) Be clear and obvious in describing the functionality of the module. The resulting code should almost be language like. A sentence like "If (A equals 10) then print B as "xx.xx" else B = 0 end". But, that statement might also be written in a more mathematical syntax (like Fortran) as "If (A = 10) then....". Note the "=" in the second statement does NOT have the implied assignment and resulting TRUE logical decision (Spent 6 months chasing THAT bug!). 2) The language should be portable. The language should be executable as an interpreted, compiled, scripted or shell'ed running under most commonly available OS's and browsers. Perhaps Interpreted for testing, Compiled for execution speed, scripted for portability or shell'ed for utility work. Take features from scripting languages like Powershell, bash, incorporate execution speed of C, objectivity of Java or C++ and put them under one roof. Write a module that runs under IE, Firefox, Chrome, Opera, Windows, Linux, BSD, OS X, or anything else. 3) The code should be almost self-documenting. Nothing I hate worse than to have to go looking for the a type declaration, a
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Sounds like you really just want a compiler to be more helpful with errors. Tools like Resharper help with this in Visual Studio! Hogan
(Not everyone uses Visual Studio.)
You'll never get very far if all you do is follow instructions.
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(Not everyone uses Visual Studio.)
You'll never get very far if all you do is follow instructions.
If it was easy, everybody could it it! But on a more serious note, not using Visual Studio is a choice... For the hourly costs of developers (at least in the US), its worth the money to equip people with the best tools to accomplish work. And before going off on costs, there are free versions of VS. Hogan
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Just spent the better part of two weeks trying to find a bug in a Linux bash script (missing ".") and I'm tired of looking for things like a missing equal sign in the middle of an C if statement, missing period in a PHP script, lower case variable name mixed with an upper case variable name, missing brace in a C++ object, undelared function or operator overloading....get my drift?...in other people's code. (Being the perfect programmer, I never make those kinds of mistakes! And I have swamp property if you're interested.) All too many programming errors are occurring because programming languages, like C, C++, java, etc., trace their origins back to the days when terseness was a desirable quality. Printing a program listing on an ASR 33 teletype at 10 CPS on a single threaded machine made using braces in C if statements instead of a clear if-then-else-endif highly desirable. (Remember the origins of C?) Those extra 9 characters took TIME to read in and to print out. And then there's issues of language diversity. C, C++, PHP, Java, Javascript, HTML, CSS, SQL, and other languages--what works where? So, here's a few of my thoughts: (And please don't be too anal about my examples--I really want to hear how programming languages could be advanced so that I can be more productive.) Among other things, a New Programming Language should: 1) Be clear and obvious in describing the functionality of the module. The resulting code should almost be language like. A sentence like "If (A equals 10) then print B as "xx.xx" else B = 0 end". But, that statement might also be written in a more mathematical syntax (like Fortran) as "If (A = 10) then....". Note the "=" in the second statement does NOT have the implied assignment and resulting TRUE logical decision (Spent 6 months chasing THAT bug!). 2) The language should be portable. The language should be executable as an interpreted, compiled, scripted or shell'ed running under most commonly available OS's and browsers. Perhaps Interpreted for testing, Compiled for execution speed, scripted for portability or shell'ed for utility work. Take features from scripting languages like Powershell, bash, incorporate execution speed of C, objectivity of Java or C++ and put them under one roof. Write a module that runs under IE, Firefox, Chrome, Opera, Windows, Linux, BSD, OS X, or anything else. 3) The code should be almost self-documenting. Nothing I hate worse than to have to go looking for the a type declaration, a
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This is a major rant I have about default (e.g. StyleCop) formatting conventions. They waste so much space that you can't actually see what the code does.
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rjmoses wrote:
trace their origins back to the days when terseness was a desirable quality.
It still is. A decent C# class uses less characters to convey the same info as written in Object Pascal. Less characters to convey the same info - do you really need a "begin" and an "end" block?
rjmoses wrote:
Be clear and obvious in describing the functionality of the module.
When is something obvious? If you've ever hunted a swallowed exception in VB6, you'll know that this is not possible. Code should be unambigious, simple and clean. It should not become an exercise to omit documentation.
rjmoses wrote:
- The language should be portable.
It's not the language that decides on what platforms it will be implemented. VB6 will never appear on Linux without starting a major war.
rjmoses wrote:
- The code should be almost self-documenting.
Only if you're not coding, but scripting. That means that we'd limit this "programmer" to an IDE like MS Access. You'd never get InterOp or call the WinAPI. You'd never get a pointer.
rjmoses wrote:
- The language should incorporate most commonly-used functionality.
I've yet to meet the (broadly used) language that doesn't. Type-safety is something valuable - suggesting to remove it would be a step back.
rjmoses wrote:
- And, finally, it should be easily extensible.
A language? Please not; how would your old code react to changes? Can you oversee whether or not your change "breaks" something? Sorry, but only MS Access has these properties. I don't see it being used in the same way we use programming languages.
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
Eddy Vluggen wrote:
rjmoses wrote:
- The language should be portable.
It's not the language that decides on what platforms it will be implemented. VB6 will never appear on Linux without starting a major war.
Every language* is portable, but not every language gets ported everywhere. * With the possible exception of the various assembly languages, but I suspect that even they could be compiled for a system they weren't intended for, perhaps with some limitations, but I'm no expert on that.
You'll never get very far if all you do is follow instructions.
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If it was easy, everybody could it it! But on a more serious note, not using Visual Studio is a choice... For the hourly costs of developers (at least in the US), its worth the money to equip people with the best tools to accomplish work. And before going off on costs, there are free versions of VS. Hogan
snorkie wrote:
not using Visual Studio is a choice
Exactly.
snorkie wrote:
the best tools
What's that got to do with Visual Studio? :-D Seriously, I use Visual Studio when I need to, but not when I don't. I have Ultimate at work and Express at home. Use the right tool for the right job.
You'll never get very far if all you do is follow instructions.
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Didn't he say it was a BASH script? Isn't that Klingon?
You'll never get very far if all you do is follow instructions.
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Didn't he say it was a BASH script? Isn't that Klingon?
You'll never get very far if all you do is follow instructions.
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So... what you want is a common business oriented language? COBOL it is!
After two decades of cobol I am ready to chuck it out the window
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Just spent the better part of two weeks trying to find a bug in a Linux bash script (missing ".") and I'm tired of looking for things like a missing equal sign in the middle of an C if statement, missing period in a PHP script, lower case variable name mixed with an upper case variable name, missing brace in a C++ object, undelared function or operator overloading....get my drift?...in other people's code. (Being the perfect programmer, I never make those kinds of mistakes! And I have swamp property if you're interested.) All too many programming errors are occurring because programming languages, like C, C++, java, etc., trace their origins back to the days when terseness was a desirable quality. Printing a program listing on an ASR 33 teletype at 10 CPS on a single threaded machine made using braces in C if statements instead of a clear if-then-else-endif highly desirable. (Remember the origins of C?) Those extra 9 characters took TIME to read in and to print out. And then there's issues of language diversity. C, C++, PHP, Java, Javascript, HTML, CSS, SQL, and other languages--what works where? So, here's a few of my thoughts: (And please don't be too anal about my examples--I really want to hear how programming languages could be advanced so that I can be more productive.) Among other things, a New Programming Language should: 1) Be clear and obvious in describing the functionality of the module. The resulting code should almost be language like. A sentence like "If (A equals 10) then print B as "xx.xx" else B = 0 end". But, that statement might also be written in a more mathematical syntax (like Fortran) as "If (A = 10) then....". Note the "=" in the second statement does NOT have the implied assignment and resulting TRUE logical decision (Spent 6 months chasing THAT bug!). 2) The language should be portable. The language should be executable as an interpreted, compiled, scripted or shell'ed running under most commonly available OS's and browsers. Perhaps Interpreted for testing, Compiled for execution speed, scripted for portability or shell'ed for utility work. Take features from scripting languages like Powershell, bash, incorporate execution speed of C, objectivity of Java or C++ and put them under one roof. Write a module that runs under IE, Firefox, Chrome, Opera, Windows, Linux, BSD, OS X, or anything else. 3) The code should be almost self-documenting. Nothing I hate worse than to have to go looking for the a type declaration, a
20 years of programming in Cobol, C++, and html The language that meets your requirements is Visual Basic 2013. Everything that C++ can do Visual Basic 2013 can do. Here is an example of code, with no documentation, lets see if you can figure out what it does.
Public Interface iArray(Of someType)
Event ItemAdded(ByRef Item As someType)Sub AddRange(Range() As someType) Function Clear() As someType() Property Collected() As someType() Function Count() As Int64 Property Item(Index As Int64) As someType WriteOnly Property NewItem() As someType WriteOnly Property NewItems As someType() Property Populated As Boolean Function LastIndex() As Int64End Interface
<Serializable>
Partial Public Class Array(Of SomeType)
Implements iArray(Of SomeType)Private mCollected() As SomeType Private mPopulated As Boolean Public Event ItemAdded(ByRef Item As SomeType) Implements iArray(Of SomeType).ItemAdded Public Property Collected() As SomeType() Implements iArray(Of SomeType).Collected Get If mCollected Is Nothing Then mCollected = New SomeType() {} Return mCollected End Get Set(value As SomeType()) mCollected = value End Set End Property Public Sub AddRange(Range() As SomeType) Implements iArray(Of SomeType).AddRange Allocate(Collected, Range) Populated = True End Sub Public Shared Function Allocate(ByRef TheArray() As SomeType, ByVal Value As SomeType) As SomeType() Return Allocate(TheArray, Value, LastIndexOf(TheArray)) End Function Public Shared Function Allocate(ByRef TheArray() As SomeType, ByVal Values() As SomeType) As SomeType() Return Allocate(TheArray, Values, LastIndexOf(TheArray)) End Function Public Shared Function Allocate(ByRef TheArray() As SomeType, ByVal Values() As SomeType, ByRef Index As Int64) As SomeType() Try For Current As Int64 = 0 To Values.Length - 1 Allocate(TheArray, Values(Current), Index + Current) Next Catch End Try Return TheArray End Function Public Shared Function Allocate(ByRef TheArray() As SomeType, ByVal Value As SomeType, ByRef Index As Int64) As SomeType() Try TheArray(Index) = Value Catch ReDim Preserve TheArray(Index) TheArray(Index) = Value End Try Return TheArray -
Just spent the better part of two weeks trying to find a bug in a Linux bash script (missing ".") and I'm tired of looking for things like a missing equal sign in the middle of an C if statement, missing period in a PHP script, lower case variable name mixed with an upper case variable name, missing brace in a C++ object, undelared function or operator overloading....get my drift?...in other people's code. (Being the perfect programmer, I never make those kinds of mistakes! And I have swamp property if you're interested.) All too many programming errors are occurring because programming languages, like C, C++, java, etc., trace their origins back to the days when terseness was a desirable quality. Printing a program listing on an ASR 33 teletype at 10 CPS on a single threaded machine made using braces in C if statements instead of a clear if-then-else-endif highly desirable. (Remember the origins of C?) Those extra 9 characters took TIME to read in and to print out. And then there's issues of language diversity. C, C++, PHP, Java, Javascript, HTML, CSS, SQL, and other languages--what works where? So, here's a few of my thoughts: (And please don't be too anal about my examples--I really want to hear how programming languages could be advanced so that I can be more productive.) Among other things, a New Programming Language should: 1) Be clear and obvious in describing the functionality of the module. The resulting code should almost be language like. A sentence like "If (A equals 10) then print B as "xx.xx" else B = 0 end". But, that statement might also be written in a more mathematical syntax (like Fortran) as "If (A = 10) then....". Note the "=" in the second statement does NOT have the implied assignment and resulting TRUE logical decision (Spent 6 months chasing THAT bug!). 2) The language should be portable. The language should be executable as an interpreted, compiled, scripted or shell'ed running under most commonly available OS's and browsers. Perhaps Interpreted for testing, Compiled for execution speed, scripted for portability or shell'ed for utility work. Take features from scripting languages like Powershell, bash, incorporate execution speed of C, objectivity of Java or C++ and put them under one roof. Write a module that runs under IE, Firefox, Chrome, Opera, Windows, Linux, BSD, OS X, or anything else. 3) The code should be almost self-documenting. Nothing I hate worse than to have to go looking for the a type declaration, a
I think it's time for you to move forward from living in the late Paleolithic in terms of developer tools to the modern era where superb tools like .NET's compiler, Visual Studio, and add-ons like ReSharper, help make coding much more efficient. It's always going to be a "Tower of Bable" out there, in the real world. But, if you enjoy living without the wheel, fine.
“I speak in a poem of the ancient food of heroes: humiliation, unhappiness, discord. Those things are given to us to transform, so that we may make from the miserable circumstances of our lives things that are eternal, or aspire to be so.” Jorge Luis Borges
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All your answers are at The Osmosian Order[^]
cheers Chris Maunder
How long have you been waiting to trot that one out? That frickin' awesome.
Curvature of the Mind now with 3D
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Just spent the better part of two weeks trying to find a bug in a Linux bash script (missing ".") and I'm tired of looking for things like a missing equal sign in the middle of an C if statement, missing period in a PHP script, lower case variable name mixed with an upper case variable name, missing brace in a C++ object, undelared function or operator overloading....get my drift?...in other people's code. (Being the perfect programmer, I never make those kinds of mistakes! And I have swamp property if you're interested.) All too many programming errors are occurring because programming languages, like C, C++, java, etc., trace their origins back to the days when terseness was a desirable quality. Printing a program listing on an ASR 33 teletype at 10 CPS on a single threaded machine made using braces in C if statements instead of a clear if-then-else-endif highly desirable. (Remember the origins of C?) Those extra 9 characters took TIME to read in and to print out. And then there's issues of language diversity. C, C++, PHP, Java, Javascript, HTML, CSS, SQL, and other languages--what works where? So, here's a few of my thoughts: (And please don't be too anal about my examples--I really want to hear how programming languages could be advanced so that I can be more productive.) Among other things, a New Programming Language should: 1) Be clear and obvious in describing the functionality of the module. The resulting code should almost be language like. A sentence like "If (A equals 10) then print B as "xx.xx" else B = 0 end". But, that statement might also be written in a more mathematical syntax (like Fortran) as "If (A = 10) then....". Note the "=" in the second statement does NOT have the implied assignment and resulting TRUE logical decision (Spent 6 months chasing THAT bug!). 2) The language should be portable. The language should be executable as an interpreted, compiled, scripted or shell'ed running under most commonly available OS's and browsers. Perhaps Interpreted for testing, Compiled for execution speed, scripted for portability or shell'ed for utility work. Take features from scripting languages like Powershell, bash, incorporate execution speed of C, objectivity of Java or C++ and put them under one roof. Write a module that runs under IE, Firefox, Chrome, Opera, Windows, Linux, BSD, OS X, or anything else. 3) The code should be almost self-documenting. Nothing I hate worse than to have to go looking for the a type declaration, a
So you want to learn COBOL?
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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All your answers are at The Osmosian Order[^]
cheers Chris Maunder
You beat me to it Chris. I read this title in CP daily news, & came rushing here to suggest the legendary Osmosian. Great! You have a good memory too ;). Hail Osmo!
Starting to think people post kid pics in their profiles because that was the last time they were cute - Jeremy.
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Just spent the better part of two weeks trying to find a bug in a Linux bash script (missing ".") and I'm tired of looking for things like a missing equal sign in the middle of an C if statement, missing period in a PHP script, lower case variable name mixed with an upper case variable name, missing brace in a C++ object, undelared function or operator overloading....get my drift?...in other people's code. (Being the perfect programmer, I never make those kinds of mistakes! And I have swamp property if you're interested.) All too many programming errors are occurring because programming languages, like C, C++, java, etc., trace their origins back to the days when terseness was a desirable quality. Printing a program listing on an ASR 33 teletype at 10 CPS on a single threaded machine made using braces in C if statements instead of a clear if-then-else-endif highly desirable. (Remember the origins of C?) Those extra 9 characters took TIME to read in and to print out. And then there's issues of language diversity. C, C++, PHP, Java, Javascript, HTML, CSS, SQL, and other languages--what works where? So, here's a few of my thoughts: (And please don't be too anal about my examples--I really want to hear how programming languages could be advanced so that I can be more productive.) Among other things, a New Programming Language should: 1) Be clear and obvious in describing the functionality of the module. The resulting code should almost be language like. A sentence like "If (A equals 10) then print B as "xx.xx" else B = 0 end". But, that statement might also be written in a more mathematical syntax (like Fortran) as "If (A = 10) then....". Note the "=" in the second statement does NOT have the implied assignment and resulting TRUE logical decision (Spent 6 months chasing THAT bug!). 2) The language should be portable. The language should be executable as an interpreted, compiled, scripted or shell'ed running under most commonly available OS's and browsers. Perhaps Interpreted for testing, Compiled for execution speed, scripted for portability or shell'ed for utility work. Take features from scripting languages like Powershell, bash, incorporate execution speed of C, objectivity of Java or C++ and put them under one roof. Write a module that runs under IE, Firefox, Chrome, Opera, Windows, Linux, BSD, OS X, or anything else. 3) The code should be almost self-documenting. Nothing I hate worse than to have to go looking for the a type declaration, a
Visual Basic .NET have almost all those features
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Just spent the better part of two weeks trying to find a bug in a Linux bash script (missing ".") and I'm tired of looking for things like a missing equal sign in the middle of an C if statement, missing period in a PHP script, lower case variable name mixed with an upper case variable name, missing brace in a C++ object, undelared function or operator overloading....get my drift?...in other people's code. (Being the perfect programmer, I never make those kinds of mistakes! And I have swamp property if you're interested.) All too many programming errors are occurring because programming languages, like C, C++, java, etc., trace their origins back to the days when terseness was a desirable quality. Printing a program listing on an ASR 33 teletype at 10 CPS on a single threaded machine made using braces in C if statements instead of a clear if-then-else-endif highly desirable. (Remember the origins of C?) Those extra 9 characters took TIME to read in and to print out. And then there's issues of language diversity. C, C++, PHP, Java, Javascript, HTML, CSS, SQL, and other languages--what works where? So, here's a few of my thoughts: (And please don't be too anal about my examples--I really want to hear how programming languages could be advanced so that I can be more productive.) Among other things, a New Programming Language should: 1) Be clear and obvious in describing the functionality of the module. The resulting code should almost be language like. A sentence like "If (A equals 10) then print B as "xx.xx" else B = 0 end". But, that statement might also be written in a more mathematical syntax (like Fortran) as "If (A = 10) then....". Note the "=" in the second statement does NOT have the implied assignment and resulting TRUE logical decision (Spent 6 months chasing THAT bug!). 2) The language should be portable. The language should be executable as an interpreted, compiled, scripted or shell'ed running under most commonly available OS's and browsers. Perhaps Interpreted for testing, Compiled for execution speed, scripted for portability or shell'ed for utility work. Take features from scripting languages like Powershell, bash, incorporate execution speed of C, objectivity of Java or C++ and put them under one roof. Write a module that runs under IE, Firefox, Chrome, Opera, Windows, Linux, BSD, OS X, or anything else. 3) The code should be almost self-documenting. Nothing I hate worse than to have to go looking for the a type declaration, a
As for missing equal signs, try Yoda conditions[^]! :)
GOTOs are a bit like wire coat hangers: they tend to breed in the darkness, such that where there once were few, eventually there are many, and the program's architecture collapses beneath them. (Fran Poretto) Point in case: http://www.infoq.com/news/2014/02/apple_gotofail_lessons[^]