Is "programming" a dirty word, suddenly?
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Having read the thread, I can now respond. I am 51 and have been professionally employed designing and writing code since 1986. Having said that: Programmers are perceived as those that simply key in the code; they are not analysts Analysts are perceived as those that can think through an issue; they don't necessarily write the code Combintations of the two can think and code Architects are so far above the analsyis and coding that they sometimes forget that a foundation must be built And I expect a process to come crashing down in a few months because the solutions architects, application architects and data architects forgot to ask the people that actually support the underlying structure what simple level configuration is required (trusts, firewalls, application IDs... you know... the unimportant stuff). Tim
Yes - that's about right... I've always thought of "programmer" as including "analyst", but I take your point: an external perception might ignore it. Of course, "Architect" means something only to "Architects"! [Quote from somewhere]: If (structural) architects designed buildings the way programmers design software, then civilization as we know it would collapse overnight!
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I'm 63 - been programming since 1967. I am older than all others in my department and started programming before my immediate manager was born. :sigh:
According to my calculations, I should be able to retire about 5 years after I die.
That's the spirit!!
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Dan Sutton wrote:
don't "coding" and "coder" sound menial to you - as though you have no actual idea of what you're doing, but are simply sitting on an assembly line, putting together other people's ideas?
Wouldn't that make it an excellent description of most "programming" jobs?
Mine was never that kind of job. I did hardware system IPL. Dave.
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Mine was never that kind of job. I did hardware system IPL. Dave.
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Yes - that's about right... I've always thought of "programmer" as including "analyst", but I take your point: an external perception might ignore it. Of course, "Architect" means something only to "Architects"! [Quote from somewhere]: If (structural) architects designed buildings the way programmers design software, then civilization as we know it would collapse overnight!
Dan Sutton wrote:
[Quote from somewhere]: If (structural) architects designed buildings the way programmers design software, then civilization as we know it would collapse overnight!
Variant: If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote software the first woodpecker to come along would destroy civilization.
A positive attitude may not solve every problem, but it will annoy enough people to be worth the effort.
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In 1965 I left the Air Force as an EW, and found immediate employment at the relatively newly formed GE mainframe plant in my hometown of Phoenix. I started out in the hardware factory bringing up the hardware systems, then moved into the Test and Diagnostics area, then moved up to the Operating System area. 35 years later I retired, and never had to write a single line of HTML. Dave.
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What's with the use of "coder" or "engineer" or "coding" and so on, instead of "programmer" and "programming" all over the place: to read people's articles these days is, seemingly, to observe a carefully-planned avoidance of the terms... I even read one article which said, "When you're going for a job, don't use the word 'programmer' because it puts employers off," but then again, if they're hiring programmers, then what's wrong with being a programmer? More to the point, don't "coding" and "coder" sound menial to you - as though you have no actual idea of what you're doing, but are simply sitting on an assembly line, putting together other people's ideas? It seems to me that there's a type of self-denigration going on in the programming world: twenty years ago, we appeared to people as gods; now we're seemingly trying to blend in and appear to them in a form they can understand... I don't like it.
Twenty three years ago when I got my first job as a COBOL programmer for Norwich Union - that is all I did. I was given a specification and I just programmed and tested to the specification. We had business analysts, project managers and systems analysts. Now I work as a developer, this means being a business analyst, project manager, systems analyst and coder. That's why I don't call myself a programmer or coder as I help the business in its development of IT systems through business analysis, project management, systems analysis and programming.
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”
― Christopher Hitchens
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Twenty three years ago when I got my first job as a COBOL programmer for Norwich Union - that is all I did. I was given a specification and I just programmed and tested to the specification. We had business analysts, project managers and systems analysts. Now I work as a developer, this means being a business analyst, project manager, systems analyst and coder. That's why I don't call myself a programmer or coder as I help the business in its development of IT systems through business analysis, project management, systems analysis and programming.
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”
― Christopher Hitchens
Ah - interesting: so to you, there's no distinction between "programmer" and "coder"... I guess, to me, "programmer" evokes Dijkstra, you see -- whereas "coder" evokes nothing. So my "programmer" is your "developer". Semantics... semantics...
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In 1965 I left the Air Force as an EW, and found immediate employment at the relatively newly formed GE mainframe plant in my hometown of Phoenix. I started out in the hardware factory bringing up the hardware systems, then moved into the Test and Diagnostics area, then moved up to the Operating System area. 35 years later I retired, and never had to write a single line of HTML. Dave.
Member 4194593 wrote:
never had to write a single line of HTML.
Do it. I dare you. You'll feel better for joining the web crowd. Be one of us. Here I'll get you started if you just complete the line...
<p>Hello World!</p...
Jeremy Falcon
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Member 4194593 wrote:
never had to write a single line of HTML.
Do it. I dare you. You'll feel better for joining the web crowd. Be one of us. Here I'll get you started if you just complete the line...
<p>Hello World!</p...
Jeremy Falcon
Jeremy, I typed that into my text editor and tried to assemble it with MASM. Here is what I got: C
Hello World!
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Jeremy, I typed that into my text editor and tried to assemble it with MASM. Here is what I got: C
Hello World!
Member 4194593 wrote:
See Algorithms, the entry for April 1st to see what I do for fun and games.
Ooooooh, I'm on it. :~
Jeremy Falcon
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Member 4194593 wrote:
See Algorithms, the entry for April 1st to see what I do for fun and games.
Ooooooh, I'm on it. :~
Jeremy Falcon
Enjoy! Dave.
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What's with the use of "coder" or "engineer" or "coding" and so on, instead of "programmer" and "programming" all over the place: to read people's articles these days is, seemingly, to observe a carefully-planned avoidance of the terms... I even read one article which said, "When you're going for a job, don't use the word 'programmer' because it puts employers off," but then again, if they're hiring programmers, then what's wrong with being a programmer? More to the point, don't "coding" and "coder" sound menial to you - as though you have no actual idea of what you're doing, but are simply sitting on an assembly line, putting together other people's ideas? It seems to me that there's a type of self-denigration going on in the programming world: twenty years ago, we appeared to people as gods; now we're seemingly trying to blend in and appear to them in a form they can understand... I don't like it.
Yes, I prefer "Software Developer", in an all-inclusive "Software Development LifeCycle" kind of way -- I do it all, not just the coding part. A shortcoming I see with the term "developer" is that there are Hollywood types who "develop" shows -- e.g. "we're developing a new show for NBC" -- but they don't seem to do any actual work, just schedule meetings etc., which really makes them more like project managers. :~ The term "engineer" is inappropriate, because what we do isn't nearly that technical, and using that term in relation to software is probably demeaning to real engineers (like my father).
You'll never get very far if all you do is follow instructions.
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Yes, I prefer "Software Developer", in an all-inclusive "Software Development LifeCycle" kind of way -- I do it all, not just the coding part. A shortcoming I see with the term "developer" is that there are Hollywood types who "develop" shows -- e.g. "we're developing a new show for NBC" -- but they don't seem to do any actual work, just schedule meetings etc., which really makes them more like project managers. :~ The term "engineer" is inappropriate, because what we do isn't nearly that technical, and using that term in relation to software is probably demeaning to real engineers (like my father).
You'll never get very far if all you do is follow instructions.
It's funny: I actually spent a while working with a real engineer... and he was much better at what he did than I could ever be, whereas he considered what I did to be far more complex than what he did, and to be magic -- so in reality, we had the same opinion about each other's occupations... thus, in reality, calling me an engineer would, in some way, be demeaning (or elevating, depending on who's looking) to both of us. There's an interesting dichotomy for you! I think what we do is easily as technical as what engineers do, but in a very different way: I'd agree that "engineer" is a grossly inappropriate term for it. Here in Hollywood (and yes, I am in Hollywood!), "programmer" is just as misunderstood as "developer" since it also has to do with TV schedules and so on... I think the trick there is to ignore Hollywood. I know I do.
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It's funny: I actually spent a while working with a real engineer... and he was much better at what he did than I could ever be, whereas he considered what I did to be far more complex than what he did, and to be magic -- so in reality, we had the same opinion about each other's occupations... thus, in reality, calling me an engineer would, in some way, be demeaning (or elevating, depending on who's looking) to both of us. There's an interesting dichotomy for you! I think what we do is easily as technical as what engineers do, but in a very different way: I'd agree that "engineer" is a grossly inappropriate term for it. Here in Hollywood (and yes, I am in Hollywood!), "programmer" is just as misunderstood as "developer" since it also has to do with TV schedules and so on... I think the trick there is to ignore Hollywood. I know I do.
Dan Sutton wrote:
has to do with TV schedules and so on
But isn't that done by a Program Director?
You'll never get very far if all you do is follow instructions.
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What's with the use of "coder" or "engineer" or "coding" and so on, instead of "programmer" and "programming" all over the place: to read people's articles these days is, seemingly, to observe a carefully-planned avoidance of the terms... I even read one article which said, "When you're going for a job, don't use the word 'programmer' because it puts employers off," but then again, if they're hiring programmers, then what's wrong with being a programmer? More to the point, don't "coding" and "coder" sound menial to you - as though you have no actual idea of what you're doing, but are simply sitting on an assembly line, putting together other people's ideas? It seems to me that there's a type of self-denigration going on in the programming world: twenty years ago, we appeared to people as gods; now we're seemingly trying to blend in and appear to them in a form they can understand... I don't like it.
I think there is a definite move away from the words 'programmer' and 'programming'. My impression of the reason for that is not to hide what we do, but to make it clear that we don't only do programming – a developer or engineer role includes programming, but also design, UCD, planning, client interaction, requirements analysis, testing etc.
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Not really, because it precludes the idea that the programmer has anything to do with designing the system -- it sounds more as though he's been told what to write and how to write it, and is just sitting there doing the menial task of putting it all together; in reality, the concept of "programmer" also contains the concept of "systems analyst" -- i.e. if you don't get to make decisions about how the system is designed, then you really are just a coder.
I love "business analysts". In some places they've been okay, but in most they're people with non-technical backgrounds who haven't got a clue what's actually needed, or how to express it in terms useful for developing an application. In a recent place I worked, one business analyst's previous job was working in a care home. Nice enough person, but I fail to see how that experience of changing bed sheets and serving meals on trays is relevant. Most of the others were at the same level, experience wise. Needless to say the project was a complete failure (the worst I've seen in my career) costing rather a lot of money and producing diddly. Still, all the business analysts were a much higher rank and salary than any of the programmers.
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I love "business analysts". In some places they've been okay, but in most they're people with non-technical backgrounds who haven't got a clue what's actually needed, or how to express it in terms useful for developing an application. In a recent place I worked, one business analyst's previous job was working in a care home. Nice enough person, but I fail to see how that experience of changing bed sheets and serving meals on trays is relevant. Most of the others were at the same level, experience wise. Needless to say the project was a complete failure (the worst I've seen in my career) costing rather a lot of money and producing diddly. Still, all the business analysts were a much higher rank and salary than any of the programmers.
"I fail to see how that experience of changing bed sheets and serving meals on trays is relevant" Not been in IT long have you?
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"I fail to see how that experience of changing bed sheets and serving meals on trays is relevant" Not been in IT long have you?
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What's with the use of "coder" or "engineer" or "coding" and so on, instead of "programmer" and "programming" all over the place: to read people's articles these days is, seemingly, to observe a carefully-planned avoidance of the terms... I even read one article which said, "When you're going for a job, don't use the word 'programmer' because it puts employers off," but then again, if they're hiring programmers, then what's wrong with being a programmer? More to the point, don't "coding" and "coder" sound menial to you - as though you have no actual idea of what you're doing, but are simply sitting on an assembly line, putting together other people's ideas? It seems to me that there's a type of self-denigration going on in the programming world: twenty years ago, we appeared to people as gods; now we're seemingly trying to blend in and appear to them in a form they can understand... I don't like it.
I think those two words have a lot in common, but are in no way equal. Being programmer is about creating programs - not necessarily by writing code. You can be a programmer and work with flowcharts (i.e. using Windows Workflow Foundation), but never touching the code itself. On the other side, coder is just writing code. It may be executable code (program, algorithm), but it also may be HTML or CSS, which are not programming languages.