Is "programming" a dirty word, suddenly?
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Member 4194593 wrote:
never had to write a single line of HTML.
Do it. I dare you. You'll feel better for joining the web crowd. Be one of us. Here I'll get you started if you just complete the line...
<p>Hello World!</p...
Jeremy Falcon
Jeremy, I typed that into my text editor and tried to assemble it with MASM. Here is what I got: C
Hello World!
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Jeremy, I typed that into my text editor and tried to assemble it with MASM. Here is what I got: C
Hello World!
Member 4194593 wrote:
See Algorithms, the entry for April 1st to see what I do for fun and games.
Ooooooh, I'm on it. :~
Jeremy Falcon
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Member 4194593 wrote:
See Algorithms, the entry for April 1st to see what I do for fun and games.
Ooooooh, I'm on it. :~
Jeremy Falcon
Enjoy! Dave.
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What's with the use of "coder" or "engineer" or "coding" and so on, instead of "programmer" and "programming" all over the place: to read people's articles these days is, seemingly, to observe a carefully-planned avoidance of the terms... I even read one article which said, "When you're going for a job, don't use the word 'programmer' because it puts employers off," but then again, if they're hiring programmers, then what's wrong with being a programmer? More to the point, don't "coding" and "coder" sound menial to you - as though you have no actual idea of what you're doing, but are simply sitting on an assembly line, putting together other people's ideas? It seems to me that there's a type of self-denigration going on in the programming world: twenty years ago, we appeared to people as gods; now we're seemingly trying to blend in and appear to them in a form they can understand... I don't like it.
Yes, I prefer "Software Developer", in an all-inclusive "Software Development LifeCycle" kind of way -- I do it all, not just the coding part. A shortcoming I see with the term "developer" is that there are Hollywood types who "develop" shows -- e.g. "we're developing a new show for NBC" -- but they don't seem to do any actual work, just schedule meetings etc., which really makes them more like project managers. :~ The term "engineer" is inappropriate, because what we do isn't nearly that technical, and using that term in relation to software is probably demeaning to real engineers (like my father).
You'll never get very far if all you do is follow instructions.
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Yes, I prefer "Software Developer", in an all-inclusive "Software Development LifeCycle" kind of way -- I do it all, not just the coding part. A shortcoming I see with the term "developer" is that there are Hollywood types who "develop" shows -- e.g. "we're developing a new show for NBC" -- but they don't seem to do any actual work, just schedule meetings etc., which really makes them more like project managers. :~ The term "engineer" is inappropriate, because what we do isn't nearly that technical, and using that term in relation to software is probably demeaning to real engineers (like my father).
You'll never get very far if all you do is follow instructions.
It's funny: I actually spent a while working with a real engineer... and he was much better at what he did than I could ever be, whereas he considered what I did to be far more complex than what he did, and to be magic -- so in reality, we had the same opinion about each other's occupations... thus, in reality, calling me an engineer would, in some way, be demeaning (or elevating, depending on who's looking) to both of us. There's an interesting dichotomy for you! I think what we do is easily as technical as what engineers do, but in a very different way: I'd agree that "engineer" is a grossly inappropriate term for it. Here in Hollywood (and yes, I am in Hollywood!), "programmer" is just as misunderstood as "developer" since it also has to do with TV schedules and so on... I think the trick there is to ignore Hollywood. I know I do.
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It's funny: I actually spent a while working with a real engineer... and he was much better at what he did than I could ever be, whereas he considered what I did to be far more complex than what he did, and to be magic -- so in reality, we had the same opinion about each other's occupations... thus, in reality, calling me an engineer would, in some way, be demeaning (or elevating, depending on who's looking) to both of us. There's an interesting dichotomy for you! I think what we do is easily as technical as what engineers do, but in a very different way: I'd agree that "engineer" is a grossly inappropriate term for it. Here in Hollywood (and yes, I am in Hollywood!), "programmer" is just as misunderstood as "developer" since it also has to do with TV schedules and so on... I think the trick there is to ignore Hollywood. I know I do.
Dan Sutton wrote:
has to do with TV schedules and so on
But isn't that done by a Program Director?
You'll never get very far if all you do is follow instructions.
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What's with the use of "coder" or "engineer" or "coding" and so on, instead of "programmer" and "programming" all over the place: to read people's articles these days is, seemingly, to observe a carefully-planned avoidance of the terms... I even read one article which said, "When you're going for a job, don't use the word 'programmer' because it puts employers off," but then again, if they're hiring programmers, then what's wrong with being a programmer? More to the point, don't "coding" and "coder" sound menial to you - as though you have no actual idea of what you're doing, but are simply sitting on an assembly line, putting together other people's ideas? It seems to me that there's a type of self-denigration going on in the programming world: twenty years ago, we appeared to people as gods; now we're seemingly trying to blend in and appear to them in a form they can understand... I don't like it.
I think there is a definite move away from the words 'programmer' and 'programming'. My impression of the reason for that is not to hide what we do, but to make it clear that we don't only do programming – a developer or engineer role includes programming, but also design, UCD, planning, client interaction, requirements analysis, testing etc.
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Not really, because it precludes the idea that the programmer has anything to do with designing the system -- it sounds more as though he's been told what to write and how to write it, and is just sitting there doing the menial task of putting it all together; in reality, the concept of "programmer" also contains the concept of "systems analyst" -- i.e. if you don't get to make decisions about how the system is designed, then you really are just a coder.
I love "business analysts". In some places they've been okay, but in most they're people with non-technical backgrounds who haven't got a clue what's actually needed, or how to express it in terms useful for developing an application. In a recent place I worked, one business analyst's previous job was working in a care home. Nice enough person, but I fail to see how that experience of changing bed sheets and serving meals on trays is relevant. Most of the others were at the same level, experience wise. Needless to say the project was a complete failure (the worst I've seen in my career) costing rather a lot of money and producing diddly. Still, all the business analysts were a much higher rank and salary than any of the programmers.
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I love "business analysts". In some places they've been okay, but in most they're people with non-technical backgrounds who haven't got a clue what's actually needed, or how to express it in terms useful for developing an application. In a recent place I worked, one business analyst's previous job was working in a care home. Nice enough person, but I fail to see how that experience of changing bed sheets and serving meals on trays is relevant. Most of the others were at the same level, experience wise. Needless to say the project was a complete failure (the worst I've seen in my career) costing rather a lot of money and producing diddly. Still, all the business analysts were a much higher rank and salary than any of the programmers.
"I fail to see how that experience of changing bed sheets and serving meals on trays is relevant" Not been in IT long have you?
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"I fail to see how that experience of changing bed sheets and serving meals on trays is relevant" Not been in IT long have you?
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What's with the use of "coder" or "engineer" or "coding" and so on, instead of "programmer" and "programming" all over the place: to read people's articles these days is, seemingly, to observe a carefully-planned avoidance of the terms... I even read one article which said, "When you're going for a job, don't use the word 'programmer' because it puts employers off," but then again, if they're hiring programmers, then what's wrong with being a programmer? More to the point, don't "coding" and "coder" sound menial to you - as though you have no actual idea of what you're doing, but are simply sitting on an assembly line, putting together other people's ideas? It seems to me that there's a type of self-denigration going on in the programming world: twenty years ago, we appeared to people as gods; now we're seemingly trying to blend in and appear to them in a form they can understand... I don't like it.
I think those two words have a lot in common, but are in no way equal. Being programmer is about creating programs - not necessarily by writing code. You can be a programmer and work with flowcharts (i.e. using Windows Workflow Foundation), but never touching the code itself. On the other side, coder is just writing code. It may be executable code (program, algorithm), but it also may be HTML or CSS, which are not programming languages.
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"I fail to see how that experience of changing bed sheets and serving meals on trays is relevant" Not been in IT long have you?
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No - it's not about that. It's about the fact that, back in the days, being a "programmer" was something to be proud of - perhaps because it was a new thing to be -- there wasn't much of a history of programming in the '70s... perhaps it's just old-fashioned at this point, or ubiquitous, or something -- mind you, these days, there's a slew of shitty programmers around (just try hiring one) whereas 30 years ago, there wasn't room for shitty programmers -- the whole industry's different at this point.
30 years ago, being a "programmer" could also mean you'd completed IBM's 6 week programmer course (no prior knowledge necessary). Workwise, programmers got a document describing the module they were to write and wrote it. Programmers didn't necessarily know anything about how the whole system worked or how all the modules fit together -- that was someone else's job. After learning that, I stopped calling myself a programmer since that wasn't what I'd been trained to do nor the kinds of work I was interested in. While I'm not big on titles, some organizations are, and it does matter when you're applying for a job. Someone calling themselves a programmer isn't likely to get the software architect job, even if they do have the skills and experience needed, because the organization will never bring them in to interview.
We can program with only 1's, but if all you've got are zeros, you've got nothing.
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Dan Sutton wrote:
has to do with TV schedules and so on
But isn't that done by a Program Director?
You'll never get very far if all you do is follow instructions.
I hope never to be completely sure...!
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No - it's not about that. It's about the fact that, back in the days, being a "programmer" was something to be proud of - perhaps because it was a new thing to be -- there wasn't much of a history of programming in the '70s... perhaps it's just old-fashioned at this point, or ubiquitous, or something -- mind you, these days, there's a slew of shitty programmers around (just try hiring one) whereas 30 years ago, there wasn't room for shitty programmers -- the whole industry's different at this point.
Dan Sutton wrote:
30 years ago, there wasn't room for sh***y programmers
Really? What happened to all those sh***y programmers I encountered in the 60s? :-D
All that is necessary for Evil to succeed is for Good Folks to keep voting for their Party. - Cornelius Thirp
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What's with the use of "coder" or "engineer" or "coding" and so on, instead of "programmer" and "programming" all over the place: to read people's articles these days is, seemingly, to observe a carefully-planned avoidance of the terms... I even read one article which said, "When you're going for a job, don't use the word 'programmer' because it puts employers off," but then again, if they're hiring programmers, then what's wrong with being a programmer? More to the point, don't "coding" and "coder" sound menial to you - as though you have no actual idea of what you're doing, but are simply sitting on an assembly line, putting together other people's ideas? It seems to me that there's a type of self-denigration going on in the programming world: twenty years ago, we appeared to people as gods; now we're seemingly trying to blend in and appear to them in a form they can understand... I don't like it.
The topic "DevOps" is hot on this issue now. You may want to look it up in some of the technology blogs and sites. It discusses your concern and related ones.
"Courtesy is the product of a mature, disciplined mind ... ridicule is lack of the same - DPM"
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What's with the use of "coder" or "engineer" or "coding" and so on, instead of "programmer" and "programming" all over the place: to read people's articles these days is, seemingly, to observe a carefully-planned avoidance of the terms... I even read one article which said, "When you're going for a job, don't use the word 'programmer' because it puts employers off," but then again, if they're hiring programmers, then what's wrong with being a programmer? More to the point, don't "coding" and "coder" sound menial to you - as though you have no actual idea of what you're doing, but are simply sitting on an assembly line, putting together other people's ideas? It seems to me that there's a type of self-denigration going on in the programming world: twenty years ago, we appeared to people as gods; now we're seemingly trying to blend in and appear to them in a form they can understand... I don't like it.
In some circles, they say scripting, in others hacking. Sometimes it is so that they can ask you to do anything and you can't say "it is not my job because my job title is programmer". For instance designing - is that part of programming? Maybe yes, maybe no. Developer or Engineer - that doesn't say whether you are an analyst, programmer, designer, architect etc. It is a title I've been using for the past 20 years. It is one title that fits everything, including moving chairs to get rooms ready for presentations, washing up after the guests have left, filling in shipping orders, packaging, cabling and even mentoring. It is anything required to train the staff, sell the product and get it out of the door. Sometimes you get asked when you apply for a job - do you mind opening up machines and hacking together several non-working machines to make a working one if the job requires it? Some programmers will say no - their job is just programming or software development: such things are below them (yes there are snobs in this industry). Some will gladly do it because it is something different. Even hacking ice out of the fridge or working out why the toilet doesn't flush is fun for these guys.
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What's with the use of "coder" or "engineer" or "coding" and so on, instead of "programmer" and "programming" all over the place: to read people's articles these days is, seemingly, to observe a carefully-planned avoidance of the terms... I even read one article which said, "When you're going for a job, don't use the word 'programmer' because it puts employers off," but then again, if they're hiring programmers, then what's wrong with being a programmer? More to the point, don't "coding" and "coder" sound menial to you - as though you have no actual idea of what you're doing, but are simply sitting on an assembly line, putting together other people's ideas? It seems to me that there's a type of self-denigration going on in the programming world: twenty years ago, we appeared to people as gods; now we're seemingly trying to blend in and appear to them in a form they can understand... I don't like it.
I personally see it as rather a great title to be given. Programming is a skill that everyone should develop, but there's only a few that actually have fully developed in this art. Plus, there's going to be that one job where you have to know how to code. If you add that you are a coder because you have developed this skill, your work and life will be easier.
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Dan Sutton wrote:
[Quote from somewhere]: If (structural) architects designed buildings the way programmers design software, then civilization as we know it would collapse overnight!
Variant: If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote software the first woodpecker to come along would destroy civilization.
A positive attitude may not solve every problem, but it will annoy enough people to be worth the effort.
Luckily that kind of software is not used on import things. Just on normal business data processing or whatever they call it today.
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What's with the use of "coder" or "engineer" or "coding" and so on, instead of "programmer" and "programming" all over the place: to read people's articles these days is, seemingly, to observe a carefully-planned avoidance of the terms... I even read one article which said, "When you're going for a job, don't use the word 'programmer' because it puts employers off," but then again, if they're hiring programmers, then what's wrong with being a programmer? More to the point, don't "coding" and "coder" sound menial to you - as though you have no actual idea of what you're doing, but are simply sitting on an assembly line, putting together other people's ideas? It seems to me that there's a type of self-denigration going on in the programming world: twenty years ago, we appeared to people as gods; now we're seemingly trying to blend in and appear to them in a form they can understand... I don't like it.