Is "programming" a dirty word, suddenly?
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"I fail to see how that experience of changing bed sheets and serving meals on trays is relevant" Not been in IT long have you?
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What's with the use of "coder" or "engineer" or "coding" and so on, instead of "programmer" and "programming" all over the place: to read people's articles these days is, seemingly, to observe a carefully-planned avoidance of the terms... I even read one article which said, "When you're going for a job, don't use the word 'programmer' because it puts employers off," but then again, if they're hiring programmers, then what's wrong with being a programmer? More to the point, don't "coding" and "coder" sound menial to you - as though you have no actual idea of what you're doing, but are simply sitting on an assembly line, putting together other people's ideas? It seems to me that there's a type of self-denigration going on in the programming world: twenty years ago, we appeared to people as gods; now we're seemingly trying to blend in and appear to them in a form they can understand... I don't like it.
I think those two words have a lot in common, but are in no way equal. Being programmer is about creating programs - not necessarily by writing code. You can be a programmer and work with flowcharts (i.e. using Windows Workflow Foundation), but never touching the code itself. On the other side, coder is just writing code. It may be executable code (program, algorithm), but it also may be HTML or CSS, which are not programming languages.
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"I fail to see how that experience of changing bed sheets and serving meals on trays is relevant" Not been in IT long have you?
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No - it's not about that. It's about the fact that, back in the days, being a "programmer" was something to be proud of - perhaps because it was a new thing to be -- there wasn't much of a history of programming in the '70s... perhaps it's just old-fashioned at this point, or ubiquitous, or something -- mind you, these days, there's a slew of shitty programmers around (just try hiring one) whereas 30 years ago, there wasn't room for shitty programmers -- the whole industry's different at this point.
30 years ago, being a "programmer" could also mean you'd completed IBM's 6 week programmer course (no prior knowledge necessary). Workwise, programmers got a document describing the module they were to write and wrote it. Programmers didn't necessarily know anything about how the whole system worked or how all the modules fit together -- that was someone else's job. After learning that, I stopped calling myself a programmer since that wasn't what I'd been trained to do nor the kinds of work I was interested in. While I'm not big on titles, some organizations are, and it does matter when you're applying for a job. Someone calling themselves a programmer isn't likely to get the software architect job, even if they do have the skills and experience needed, because the organization will never bring them in to interview.
We can program with only 1's, but if all you've got are zeros, you've got nothing.
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Dan Sutton wrote:
has to do with TV schedules and so on
But isn't that done by a Program Director?
You'll never get very far if all you do is follow instructions.
I hope never to be completely sure...!
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No - it's not about that. It's about the fact that, back in the days, being a "programmer" was something to be proud of - perhaps because it was a new thing to be -- there wasn't much of a history of programming in the '70s... perhaps it's just old-fashioned at this point, or ubiquitous, or something -- mind you, these days, there's a slew of shitty programmers around (just try hiring one) whereas 30 years ago, there wasn't room for shitty programmers -- the whole industry's different at this point.
Dan Sutton wrote:
30 years ago, there wasn't room for sh***y programmers
Really? What happened to all those sh***y programmers I encountered in the 60s? :-D
All that is necessary for Evil to succeed is for Good Folks to keep voting for their Party. - Cornelius Thirp
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What's with the use of "coder" or "engineer" or "coding" and so on, instead of "programmer" and "programming" all over the place: to read people's articles these days is, seemingly, to observe a carefully-planned avoidance of the terms... I even read one article which said, "When you're going for a job, don't use the word 'programmer' because it puts employers off," but then again, if they're hiring programmers, then what's wrong with being a programmer? More to the point, don't "coding" and "coder" sound menial to you - as though you have no actual idea of what you're doing, but are simply sitting on an assembly line, putting together other people's ideas? It seems to me that there's a type of self-denigration going on in the programming world: twenty years ago, we appeared to people as gods; now we're seemingly trying to blend in and appear to them in a form they can understand... I don't like it.
The topic "DevOps" is hot on this issue now. You may want to look it up in some of the technology blogs and sites. It discusses your concern and related ones.
"Courtesy is the product of a mature, disciplined mind ... ridicule is lack of the same - DPM"
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What's with the use of "coder" or "engineer" or "coding" and so on, instead of "programmer" and "programming" all over the place: to read people's articles these days is, seemingly, to observe a carefully-planned avoidance of the terms... I even read one article which said, "When you're going for a job, don't use the word 'programmer' because it puts employers off," but then again, if they're hiring programmers, then what's wrong with being a programmer? More to the point, don't "coding" and "coder" sound menial to you - as though you have no actual idea of what you're doing, but are simply sitting on an assembly line, putting together other people's ideas? It seems to me that there's a type of self-denigration going on in the programming world: twenty years ago, we appeared to people as gods; now we're seemingly trying to blend in and appear to them in a form they can understand... I don't like it.
In some circles, they say scripting, in others hacking. Sometimes it is so that they can ask you to do anything and you can't say "it is not my job because my job title is programmer". For instance designing - is that part of programming? Maybe yes, maybe no. Developer or Engineer - that doesn't say whether you are an analyst, programmer, designer, architect etc. It is a title I've been using for the past 20 years. It is one title that fits everything, including moving chairs to get rooms ready for presentations, washing up after the guests have left, filling in shipping orders, packaging, cabling and even mentoring. It is anything required to train the staff, sell the product and get it out of the door. Sometimes you get asked when you apply for a job - do you mind opening up machines and hacking together several non-working machines to make a working one if the job requires it? Some programmers will say no - their job is just programming or software development: such things are below them (yes there are snobs in this industry). Some will gladly do it because it is something different. Even hacking ice out of the fridge or working out why the toilet doesn't flush is fun for these guys.
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What's with the use of "coder" or "engineer" or "coding" and so on, instead of "programmer" and "programming" all over the place: to read people's articles these days is, seemingly, to observe a carefully-planned avoidance of the terms... I even read one article which said, "When you're going for a job, don't use the word 'programmer' because it puts employers off," but then again, if they're hiring programmers, then what's wrong with being a programmer? More to the point, don't "coding" and "coder" sound menial to you - as though you have no actual idea of what you're doing, but are simply sitting on an assembly line, putting together other people's ideas? It seems to me that there's a type of self-denigration going on in the programming world: twenty years ago, we appeared to people as gods; now we're seemingly trying to blend in and appear to them in a form they can understand... I don't like it.
I personally see it as rather a great title to be given. Programming is a skill that everyone should develop, but there's only a few that actually have fully developed in this art. Plus, there's going to be that one job where you have to know how to code. If you add that you are a coder because you have developed this skill, your work and life will be easier.
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Dan Sutton wrote:
[Quote from somewhere]: If (structural) architects designed buildings the way programmers design software, then civilization as we know it would collapse overnight!
Variant: If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote software the first woodpecker to come along would destroy civilization.
A positive attitude may not solve every problem, but it will annoy enough people to be worth the effort.
Luckily that kind of software is not used on import things. Just on normal business data processing or whatever they call it today.
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What's with the use of "coder" or "engineer" or "coding" and so on, instead of "programmer" and "programming" all over the place: to read people's articles these days is, seemingly, to observe a carefully-planned avoidance of the terms... I even read one article which said, "When you're going for a job, don't use the word 'programmer' because it puts employers off," but then again, if they're hiring programmers, then what's wrong with being a programmer? More to the point, don't "coding" and "coder" sound menial to you - as though you have no actual idea of what you're doing, but are simply sitting on an assembly line, putting together other people's ideas? It seems to me that there's a type of self-denigration going on in the programming world: twenty years ago, we appeared to people as gods; now we're seemingly trying to blend in and appear to them in a form they can understand... I don't like it.
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What's with the use of "coder" or "engineer" or "coding" and so on, instead of "programmer" and "programming" all over the place: to read people's articles these days is, seemingly, to observe a carefully-planned avoidance of the terms... I even read one article which said, "When you're going for a job, don't use the word 'programmer' because it puts employers off," but then again, if they're hiring programmers, then what's wrong with being a programmer? More to the point, don't "coding" and "coder" sound menial to you - as though you have no actual idea of what you're doing, but are simply sitting on an assembly line, putting together other people's ideas? It seems to me that there's a type of self-denigration going on in the programming world: twenty years ago, we appeared to people as gods; now we're seemingly trying to blend in and appear to them in a form they can understand... I don't like it.
Here's my take: 1. Programmer - A person who programs without necessarily any design or true full development experience. 2. Coder - One who codes. Everyone in this list is, or should be, a coder. 3. Developer - A person who codes, programs, and has some direct full life cycle development experience. Much more well rounded than just a programmer. You can ask this person to write a design specification and they will do it rather than say, "How do I do that?". 4. Engineer - What software developers should be but aren't. An engineer designs and builds things and have specific and special education and training about using and applying engineering principles. Virtually all software programmers and developers have no engineering experience whatsoever and it shows (badly). 5. Software Engineer - Typically and often used to designate an engineer who does software for embedded and special processors or hardware. Ask any recruiter and this is the definition that they use. Other companies use it differently. It really should be used to indicate any coder, programmer, developer who has software engineering experience. But when was the last time you heard about "engineering" software instead of "writing" it? We could really improve the profession here... - Grant
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Here's my take: 1. Programmer - A person who programs without necessarily any design or true full development experience. 2. Coder - One who codes. Everyone in this list is, or should be, a coder. 3. Developer - A person who codes, programs, and has some direct full life cycle development experience. Much more well rounded than just a programmer. You can ask this person to write a design specification and they will do it rather than say, "How do I do that?". 4. Engineer - What software developers should be but aren't. An engineer designs and builds things and have specific and special education and training about using and applying engineering principles. Virtually all software programmers and developers have no engineering experience whatsoever and it shows (badly). 5. Software Engineer - Typically and often used to designate an engineer who does software for embedded and special processors or hardware. Ask any recruiter and this is the definition that they use. Other companies use it differently. It really should be used to indicate any coder, programmer, developer who has software engineering experience. But when was the last time you heard about "engineering" software instead of "writing" it? We could really improve the profession here... - Grant
Ultimately, there really isn't a good term for an all-round programmer. The phrase "Analyst/Programmer" almost gets it, but not really, and the others are woolly -- for example, "Developer" could mean anything the listener wants it to mean... I think a good programmer must have at least a functional knowledge of engineering... and, by extension, of everything else: if you want to be able to write programs to do *anything*, then you need to understand *everything*...
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I personally see it as rather a great title to be given. Programming is a skill that everyone should develop, but there's only a few that actually have fully developed in this art. Plus, there's going to be that one job where you have to know how to code. If you add that you are a coder because you have developed this skill, your work and life will be easier.
Is that from the point of view of programming being something you do as an extension to your job in order to handle certain problems you encounter? But what if your job is programming - in which case, programming is therefore an end in itself...? I think the verb "to code" (which I hate, from a purely grammatical standpoint) describes maybe 1/10 of what a programmer actually does...