Windows 8.1
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JimmyRopes wrote:
thin client on the machine it will be just a GUI for a locally running service
In which case wouldn't the service need to be written for a specific architecture?
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”
― Christopher Hitchens
GuyThiebaut wrote:
GuyThiebaut wrote: Plus letting a browser control hardware is in and of itself full of security risks. Only if the control is from a foreign web site. If the browser is deployed as a thin client on the machine it will be just a GUI for a locally running service. The operations running will depend on the service's authorization on the local machine.
GuyThiebaut wrote:
JimmyRopes wrote:
thin client on the machine it will be just a GUI for a locally running service
In which case wouldn't the service need to be written for a specific architecture?
Yes in that specific case it would be written for a specific architecture. In a general case where you are not targeting a specific architecture, then the application can be used on any architecture, which is more the general case. The point is that the browser can be used for the specific case or the general case. It would just be a presentation format.
**_Once you lose your pride the rest is easy.
I would agree with you but then we both would be wrong._**
The report of my death was an exaggeration - Mark Twain Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopes -
I have certainly come to had Windows 8. I am using windows 8.1 and what I like is what is like Windows 7. Just not the right OS for doing multiple things at once. I have always felt that Microsoft has failed because they refuse to create and truly effective UI group, and Windows 8 is another example. Hard to believe that the shortcomings of Windows 8 for laptop and desktop use would not be absolutely obvious. Would think it would also be poor for anyone one with a large pad since it would have enough screen real estate to be able to work with multiple applications at once. In the mean time see so many cases where Microsoft could have done better at increasing the capabilities of the programming environment. Windows does not work well with either Visual Studio managed code applications or the Web, and now there is no supported environment for creating desktop applications, now that WPF is basically unsupported. Microsoft senior management has been so stupid.
The interface is not as different as it may seem. Sure, there's the store apps and the fullscreen app environment, but there's also the regular desktop environment. You can even set an option to boot directly to desktop. Then you pin your most recently used stuff to the task bar and the interface is basically Windows 7. Sure, the full screen app store world is there, but you're not forced to use it.
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I'm not sure I'm following you here. You can do anything on 8.1 that you can do with any version of Windows. If you don't like Metro (like I don't) simply don't use it. The desktop system (still really central to the whole thing) is just as functional as it always was. Paint me confused. What's the problem?
CodeBubba wrote:
I'm not sure I'm following you here. You can do anything on 8.1 that you can do with any version of Windows.
Yes. You can. But it takes longer now. In terms of more mouse clicks/key press/screen swipes. Try performing the following actions 1) take a screenshot of this page and send the image by mail to some one. 2) add up figures on a web page using the calculator. And that charms bar or what ever they call it is downright annoying. It pops out when it's not required and does not when you need it.
Und wenn du lange in einen abgrund blickst, blickt der Abgrund auch in dich hinein - Friedrich Nietzsche
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johannesnestler wrote:
copy paste from apple fainboi forum :confused: - man have you ever USED Win 8.1? Every sentence is crap
you are the current asshole here. You are trying to answer a serious discussion with shite. You are the fanboy!
**_Once you lose your pride the rest is easy.
I would agree with you but then we both would be wrong._**
The report of my death was an exaggeration - Mark Twain Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopes -
I have certainly come to had Windows 8. I am using windows 8.1 and what I like is what is like Windows 7. Just not the right OS for doing multiple things at once. I have always felt that Microsoft has failed because they refuse to create and truly effective UI group, and Windows 8 is another example. Hard to believe that the shortcomings of Windows 8 for laptop and desktop use would not be absolutely obvious. Would think it would also be poor for anyone one with a large pad since it would have enough screen real estate to be able to work with multiple applications at once. In the mean time see so many cases where Microsoft could have done better at increasing the capabilities of the programming environment. Windows does not work well with either Visual Studio managed code applications or the Web, and now there is no supported environment for creating desktop applications, now that WPF is basically unsupported. Microsoft senior management has been so stupid.
Sorry to be a hater but everything you said is basically rubbish. Every single valuable thing in Win7 is in Win8 PLUS more. There is no downside or change in Win8 that somehow magically makes multi-tasking less effective, not playing well with Visual Studio etc. The only thing that people "think" they have a complaint about is the Metro UI and apps, but that is mainly aimed for casual and tablet use; NOT to replace your main workstation/production/development environment (blabla..) To add: I have 3 Win 8.1 devices at home (2 gaming/development PCs, 1 laptop) Dual boot Win8.1 and Win7 at work. Win7 is on here because I'm forced to by the IT admins, but much of my real testing is on Win8 because I need Virtual Machines, and Win8s Hyper-V is significantly more awesome than most others like virtualbox and VMware.
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Walt Fair, Jr. wrote:
I guess I must be brain dead. I haven't found "the shortcomings of Windows 8 for laptop and desktop use".
Other than selecting the Windows button instead of the "Start" menu, I haven't seen much real difference.:thumbsup: Me too. I can't understand what the complaining is all about. Yes it is a different interface and you need to do things a little differently, get over it. We do not work on Windows 3.11 anymore. The world has moved on.
Walt Fair, Jr. wrote:
I use Windows 8.1 on at least 2 large tablets, as well as my normal desktop PC. My development environment (VS) runs fine and all of the applications I write are for desktop use. I typically have 5 or 6 applications open at the same time. The stuff I develop on my Win7 machines run just fine on Win8 and 8.1 and vice versa.
For me it is a laptop (Win8) and a desktop (Win8.1) and they both work fine. I will admit it took me about a week to get used to the new interface when Windows 8 first came out, but after that I didn't find that it impeded my work in any way. I took the view that this was the new environment and I needed to learn it to be able to use it. I needed to adapt if was going to be productive so I took the time to learn it rather than just complain that it was different then the Windows 7 environment with which I was used to working. At first I kept using the usual desktop applications but lately I have grown used to the metro (I know I am not supposed to call it that) style applications and have been changing my preference to them where a good modern application exists to replace the old desktop application I had been using. The ship is leaving the dock and you are either on it or you are left behind.
**_Once you lose your pride the rest is easy.
I would agree with you but then we both would be wrong._**
The report of my death was an exaggeration - Mark Twain Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopesI've used W8 for more than a year on my non-touch-based Ultrabook, and find it a pain to use. The OP is right Yes it's only small things, and yes you get used to it. But no, I still don't like it, and there's so many small things that they add up to quite a heap of annoyance! To make a point: I never missed the Start Menu, which so many people point out to be one of the bigger issues. There are much more annoying changes that blatantly ignore the needs of a typical desktop user: 1. Lack of discoverability 1.1 Main functionality missing I don't mind if they 'moved my cheese'. But I do mind that W8 keeps hiding lots of functionality and settings without good reason: why do I need to move around the mouse pointer all over the screen just to see the buttons that provide the main functionality? I have a full HD screen on my Ultrabook, but there's no way to make the main function buttons always visible? WTF?:confused: 1.2 Inane Settings Dialogs I've desperately tried to figure out how to properly set up my Ultrabooks energy settings so I can properly use it while commuting. To date, I've found no less than 4 (Four!) different dialogs that contain relevant settings with some available across two or more dialogs but some only in one place - so I really need to know about all four just to set up everything properly. I've found that it helps to have them all open at the same time, because changes in one place may affect settings in another! But it gets even worse: I've found Windows update to repeatedly reset my energy settings to the default! :mad: 1.3 Inane 'flat' design In many dialogs and even on the desktop (e. g. Charm :doh: bars), simple lablels are indistinguishable from actionable GUI elements (I will not call them buttons, because they aren't buttons by any definition!). You have to mouse-over just to recognize whether or not there's a command hidden under! :thumbsdown: 2. Inane Windows Update policies As pointed out above in 1.2, there's reason to modify Update settings. However, those were regularly being reset together with the rest of my system settings :omg: I've spent months to find the right settings to finally prevent Windows from breaking my system every month X| Even more inane - or I might say catastrophically stupid - was that automatic forced update after I got a battery low warning! Needless to say, the system powered down in the middle of an update, while I was commuting, with no power connector near. It took me more than an hour to fix that mess aga
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Sorry to be a hater but everything you said is basically rubbish. Every single valuable thing in Win7 is in Win8 PLUS more. There is no downside or change in Win8 that somehow magically makes multi-tasking less effective, not playing well with Visual Studio etc. The only thing that people "think" they have a complaint about is the Metro UI and apps, but that is mainly aimed for casual and tablet use; NOT to replace your main workstation/production/development environment (blabla..) To add: I have 3 Win 8.1 devices at home (2 gaming/development PCs, 1 laptop) Dual boot Win8.1 and Win7 at work. Win7 is on here because I'm forced to by the IT admins, but much of my real testing is on Win8 because I need Virtual Machines, and Win8s Hyper-V is significantly more awesome than most others like virtualbox and VMware.
Greyze wrote:
There is no downside or change in Win8 that somehow magically makes multi-tasking less effective
Well, having few printer drivers converted, and a full-screen opaque interface whenever you want to search for a program. The former could arguably be expected, but it does raise questions about how much changes are needed. :suss: I can vouch for Hyper-V though. Although MS make no guarantees about using 8.1 Hyper-V with pre-XP Windows[^], I managed to get 8.1 to run OSes back to Windows 98SE. :thumbsup: I don't use the Metro interface at all, preferring a few hacks so everything is displayed on the screen at once and the start menu isn't full-screen. The full-screen/abrupt change is too distracting; I end up having to close the interface and try to figure out what I was searching for before. :~ I love the basico-UI though. I also custom-themed that so I have black windows with white titles. It's easier on the eyes.
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Clifford Nelson wrote:
I have certainly come to had Windows 8.
I don't know what that means you have come to had Windows 8?
Clifford Nelson wrote:
I am using windows 8.1 and what I like is what is like Windows 7.
Windows 7 is the new XP.
Clifford Nelson wrote:
Just not the right OS for doing multiple things at once. I have always felt that Microsoft has failed because they refuse to create and truly effective UI group, and Windows 8 is another example ... Would think it would also be poor for anyone one with a large pad since it would have enough screen real estate to be able to work with multiple applications at once. In the mean time see so many cases where Microsoft could have done better at increasing the capabilities of the programming environment.
So you never learned to snap windows left and right to use two applications on the same screen. That works just like Windows 7! With 2 screens that means I can work on 4 applications at once without having overly small displays. Of course Windows always allowed you to adjust the size of a window to be able to see more than one at a time, but being able to snap a window to either full screen of half screen makes it easier to do.
Clifford Nelson wrote:
Windows does not work well with either Visual Studio managed code applications or the Web,
I don't agree with that. I am using Windows 8.1 to type this and have no problem. I also have managed code applications I wrote a while back running with no problem. What problems you are having are related to your attitude about Windows 8 and not any shortcoming with the OS.
Clifford Nelson wrote:
now there is no supported environment for creating desktop applications, now that WPF is basically unsupported.
You really should be thinking about moving on. I switched to web development over desktop applications about 12 years ago because that is the way things are going and have not looked back since. The only desktop applications I develop are (usually small) utility applications I need to execute on a schedule to update some background resource; database, XML manifest, etc. They usually run in the middle of the night at a time when they will not interfere with scheduled backups. I use WPF for those but
JimmyRopes wrote:
Clifford Nelson wrote:
I have certainly come to had Windows 8.
I don't know what that means you have come to had Windows 8?
That got me scratching my head as well, until I realized he mant "hate", not "had".
JimmyRopes wrote:
With 2 screens that means I can work on 4 applications
Not enough. Not even close. Not to mention that for many apps you only need a fraction of the screen, not half of one! There's no good reason why there are only two possible window sizes for every application. That's fine for a phone screen, but not for a tablet, laptop or desktop!
JimmyRopes wrote:
Clifford Nelson wrote:
now there is no supported environment for creating desktop applications, now that WPF is basically unsupported.
You really should be thinking about moving on.
That may not be feasible. If you program for a living, the clients define the target platform. For a professional developer, it may therefore be more sensible to stick with W7. At least until the clients move on to W8. For the time being, W8 will run most W7 programs in desktop mode, no problem. The reverse isn't true at all. That makes W7 the better developer platform for desktop applications.
GOTOs are a bit like wire coat hangers: they tend to breed in the darkness, such that where there once were few, eventually there are many, and the program's architecture collapses beneath them. (Fran Poretto)
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Nope, johannesnestler is the only one making sense. The OP clearly has not used Windows 8 at all, it took me all of 5 minutes to realise that Windows 8 is exactly the same as every other version of Windows if you stay on the desktop.
If "it took you all of 5 Minutes" then it is you who hasn't used W8 and had the opportunities to discover the multitude of issues it has. I've pointed out a small selection in posting above. I've used W8 for more than a year and wholeheartedly agree with the OP. If all you do is browsing the web, W8 is fine. For serious work, it's a huge pain. If I hadn't already put so many hours of work into my ultrabook just to make it similarly productive as every W7 or XP machine is already out of the box, I'd switch to Linux instead: that would probably also require some work to configure, but at least then I'd knew I'm in control. As for johannesnestler, he disqualified himself from the discussion by needlessly insulting the OP, without even attempting to make a civilized argument.
GOTOs are a bit like wire coat hangers: they tend to breed in the darkness, such that where there once were few, eventually there are many, and the program's architecture collapses beneath them. (Fran Poretto)
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The interface is not as different as it may seem. Sure, there's the store apps and the fullscreen app environment, but there's also the regular desktop environment. You can even set an option to boot directly to desktop. Then you pin your most recently used stuff to the task bar and the interface is basically Windows 7. Sure, the full screen app store world is there, but you're not forced to use it.
For some reason people seem to think that all that desktop users need is the ability to switch to the desktop and maybe a start menu. That isn't true at all. These two things are just what opens the door to serious work - but it doesn't go halfway to being as productive as Windows XP and Windows 7 were out of the box. There are plenty of issues that make the W8 desktop needlessly hard to use; some caused by touch based functionality, some by removed functionality, some by the UI getting in the way in a manner it never did in any previous version. This isn't a matter of choosing whether or not to use the metro/app world - it is the issue that the non-Metro/App world is messed up, too!
GOTOs are a bit like wire coat hangers: they tend to breed in the darkness, such that where there once were few, eventually there are many, and the program's architecture collapses beneath them. (Fran Poretto)
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If "it took you all of 5 Minutes" then it is you who hasn't used W8 and had the opportunities to discover the multitude of issues it has. I've pointed out a small selection in posting above. I've used W8 for more than a year and wholeheartedly agree with the OP. If all you do is browsing the web, W8 is fine. For serious work, it's a huge pain. If I hadn't already put so many hours of work into my ultrabook just to make it similarly productive as every W7 or XP machine is already out of the box, I'd switch to Linux instead: that would probably also require some work to configure, but at least then I'd knew I'm in control. As for johannesnestler, he disqualified himself from the discussion by needlessly insulting the OP, without even attempting to make a civilized argument.
GOTOs are a bit like wire coat hangers: they tend to breed in the darkness, such that where there once were few, eventually there are many, and the program's architecture collapses beneath them. (Fran Poretto)
I've actually been using it exclusively since beta(nearly 2 years now) and once you are on the desktop there is absolutely no difference from Windows 7(you do know that there is still a desktop right?). I agree that the Metro interface or whatever it's called now is a waste of time but there is absolutely no reason to use it. What specific issues are you having with Windows 8? I saw that you mentioned Window sizes in your previous comment(whaat?) The OP's example is also completely useless, how does it take more clicks to e-mail a screenshot or use the calculator? :confused:
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Sorry to be a hater but everything you said is basically rubbish. Every single valuable thing in Win7 is in Win8 PLUS more. There is no downside or change in Win8 that somehow magically makes multi-tasking less effective, not playing well with Visual Studio etc. The only thing that people "think" they have a complaint about is the Metro UI and apps, but that is mainly aimed for casual and tablet use; NOT to replace your main workstation/production/development environment (blabla..) To add: I have 3 Win 8.1 devices at home (2 gaming/development PCs, 1 laptop) Dual boot Win8.1 and Win7 at work. Win7 is on here because I'm forced to by the IT admins, but much of my real testing is on Win8 because I need Virtual Machines, and Win8s Hyper-V is significantly more awesome than most others like virtualbox and VMware.
Greyze wrote:
Sorry to be a hater but everything you said is basically rubbish.
He may not have expressed himself very well, but your hand-waving doesn't make the problems go away. Not his and not mine.
Greyze wrote:
Every single valuable thing in Win7 is in Win8 PLUS more
I am not aware of any W8 desktop functionalty that I am missing in vanilla W7. However, there are plenty of things that are harder to do in vanilla W8 desktop than they were in vanilla W7 or XP. Not significantly harder, but enough (for me) to look and install alternate solutions and programs that bring back the W7 desktop functionality.
Greyze wrote:
There is no downside or change in Win8 that somehow magically makes multi-tasking less effective
Yes there are plenty. I've pointed some of them out in another posting. I don't care whether these were magical changes, but they're there.
Greyze wrote:
The only thing that people "think" they have a complaint about is the Metro UI and apps,
Wrong again. Neither the OP said this, nor am I complaining about that. I couldn't care less whether W8 provides 2 different UIs or 20. The fact remains that the one UI that I and the OP care about has been messed up for no good reason.
GOTOs are a bit like wire coat hangers: they tend to breed in the darkness, such that where there once were few, eventually there are many, and the program's architecture collapses beneath them. (Fran Poretto)
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I've actually been using it exclusively since beta(nearly 2 years now) and once you are on the desktop there is absolutely no difference from Windows 7(you do know that there is still a desktop right?). I agree that the Metro interface or whatever it's called now is a waste of time but there is absolutely no reason to use it. What specific issues are you having with Windows 8? I saw that you mentioned Window sizes in your previous comment(whaat?) The OP's example is also completely useless, how does it take more clicks to e-mail a screenshot or use the calculator? :confused:
See my posting here[^] (I hope the link tot he posting works - otherwise just look for my very first response to JimmyRopes in this topic)
GOTOs are a bit like wire coat hangers: they tend to breed in the darkness, such that where there once were few, eventually there are many, and the program's architecture collapses beneath them. (Fran Poretto)
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I've used W8 for more than a year on my non-touch-based Ultrabook, and find it a pain to use. The OP is right Yes it's only small things, and yes you get used to it. But no, I still don't like it, and there's so many small things that they add up to quite a heap of annoyance! To make a point: I never missed the Start Menu, which so many people point out to be one of the bigger issues. There are much more annoying changes that blatantly ignore the needs of a typical desktop user: 1. Lack of discoverability 1.1 Main functionality missing I don't mind if they 'moved my cheese'. But I do mind that W8 keeps hiding lots of functionality and settings without good reason: why do I need to move around the mouse pointer all over the screen just to see the buttons that provide the main functionality? I have a full HD screen on my Ultrabook, but there's no way to make the main function buttons always visible? WTF?:confused: 1.2 Inane Settings Dialogs I've desperately tried to figure out how to properly set up my Ultrabooks energy settings so I can properly use it while commuting. To date, I've found no less than 4 (Four!) different dialogs that contain relevant settings with some available across two or more dialogs but some only in one place - so I really need to know about all four just to set up everything properly. I've found that it helps to have them all open at the same time, because changes in one place may affect settings in another! But it gets even worse: I've found Windows update to repeatedly reset my energy settings to the default! :mad: 1.3 Inane 'flat' design In many dialogs and even on the desktop (e. g. Charm :doh: bars), simple lablels are indistinguishable from actionable GUI elements (I will not call them buttons, because they aren't buttons by any definition!). You have to mouse-over just to recognize whether or not there's a command hidden under! :thumbsdown: 2. Inane Windows Update policies As pointed out above in 1.2, there's reason to modify Update settings. However, those were regularly being reset together with the rest of my system settings :omg: I've spent months to find the right settings to finally prevent Windows from breaking my system every month X| Even more inane - or I might say catastrophically stupid - was that automatic forced update after I got a battery low warning! Needless to say, the system powered down in the middle of an update, while I was commuting, with no power connector near. It took me more than an hour to fix that mess aga
And that just about sums up why I don't like Win8/8.1. I am a dedicated (old school if you like) WIMP user and that means I automatically hate touch screens. But Win8 isn't the worst. Have you tried typing on an Android phone? And why is skeuomorphism suddenly a bad word? If something is supposed to work like a button it should look like a button and not a rectangular, pastel coloured nothing.
I may not last forever but the mess I leave behind certainly will.
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GuyThiebaut wrote:
Wasn't Java supposedly the answer to the question of how to write cross-platform applications?
Right! :laugh:
GuyThiebaut wrote:
While the idea of cross platform languages/frameworks is a good idea, until the manufacturers of all/most hardware create browser friendly enabled APIs I don't see the "any platform easy programming" idea taking shape in reality.
Have you heard about JavaScript? :~
GuyThiebaut wrote:
While the idea of cross platform languages/frameworks is a good idea, until the manufacturers of all/most hardware create browser friendly enabled APIs I don't see the "any platform easy programming" idea taking shape in reality.
Have you heard about JavaScript?
GuyThiebaut wrote:
Plus letting a browser control hardware is in and of itself full of security risks.
Only if the control is from a foreign web site. If the browser is deployed as a thin client on the machine it will be just a GUI for a locally running service. The operations running will depend on the service's authorization on the local machine. I don't see anything wrong with that.
**_Once you lose your pride the rest is easy.
I would agree with you but then we both would be wrong._**
The report of my death was an exaggeration - Mark Twain Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopesThin clients? That's a Novell idea.
I may not last forever but the mess I leave behind certainly will.
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Greyze wrote:
Sorry to be a hater but everything you said is basically rubbish.
He may not have expressed himself very well, but your hand-waving doesn't make the problems go away. Not his and not mine.
Greyze wrote:
Every single valuable thing in Win7 is in Win8 PLUS more
I am not aware of any W8 desktop functionalty that I am missing in vanilla W7. However, there are plenty of things that are harder to do in vanilla W8 desktop than they were in vanilla W7 or XP. Not significantly harder, but enough (for me) to look and install alternate solutions and programs that bring back the W7 desktop functionality.
Greyze wrote:
There is no downside or change in Win8 that somehow magically makes multi-tasking less effective
Yes there are plenty. I've pointed some of them out in another posting. I don't care whether these were magical changes, but they're there.
Greyze wrote:
The only thing that people "think" they have a complaint about is the Metro UI and apps,
Wrong again. Neither the OP said this, nor am I complaining about that. I couldn't care less whether W8 provides 2 different UIs or 20. The fact remains that the one UI that I and the OP care about has been messed up for no good reason.
GOTOs are a bit like wire coat hangers: they tend to breed in the darkness, such that where there once were few, eventually there are many, and the program's architecture collapses beneath them. (Fran Poretto)
If you're going to multiquote and refute every single piece then it would be nice if you backed up something with evidence. My "hand-waving" is all someone can get if they don't actually provide legitimate problem, if anyone has a problem then they should explain it clearly to get help. Just saying everything's bad gets no where. What's things are harder to do exactly? install what "alternate solutions"? The only advocated software I've ever seen is bringing back the old start menu, but that isn't a benefit. Plenty of things that make multi-tasking less effective? like what?? While the OP doesn't explicitly state it, a few things he mentions sounds like he's strongly referring to the Metro UI, which is obviously "NOT" for development or any power-user task. The original desktop UI is still there and it's vastly improved over Win7 (Such as no more useless Aero, much better explorer window, much more detailed Task manager, plenty of better shortcuts etc.), the only big difference is that there's a full screen start menu which isn't exactly a problem.
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JimmyRopes wrote:
Clifford Nelson wrote:
I have certainly come to had Windows 8.
I don't know what that means you have come to had Windows 8?
That got me scratching my head as well, until I realized he mant "hate", not "had".
JimmyRopes wrote:
With 2 screens that means I can work on 4 applications
Not enough. Not even close. Not to mention that for many apps you only need a fraction of the screen, not half of one! There's no good reason why there are only two possible window sizes for every application. That's fine for a phone screen, but not for a tablet, laptop or desktop!
JimmyRopes wrote:
Clifford Nelson wrote:
now there is no supported environment for creating desktop applications, now that WPF is basically unsupported.
You really should be thinking about moving on.
That may not be feasible. If you program for a living, the clients define the target platform. For a professional developer, it may therefore be more sensible to stick with W7. At least until the clients move on to W8. For the time being, W8 will run most W7 programs in desktop mode, no problem. The reverse isn't true at all. That makes W7 the better developer platform for desktop applications.
GOTOs are a bit like wire coat hangers: they tend to breed in the darkness, such that where there once were few, eventually there are many, and the program's architecture collapses beneath them. (Fran Poretto)
Stefan_Lang wrote:
That got me scratching my head as well, until I realized he mant "hate", not "had".
That makes more sense.
Stefan_Lang wrote:
There's no good reason why there are only two possible window sizes for every application. That's fine for a phone screen, but not for a tablet, laptop or desktop!
I am not on a windows system right now so I can't test this out but I think you can shrink a metro app horizontally, not just full or half screen. this may help for metro apps[^] You are not limited to two sizes on the desktop. You can stretch or shrink the window from a non-metro app just like before.
Stefan_Lang wrote:
That may not be feasible. If you program for a living, the clients define the target platform. For a professional developer, it may therefore be more sensible to stick with W7. At least until the clients move on to W8
Unless you are working from home the client will provide you with a workstation with the proper OS and development environment. That does not preclude moving on in you personal life. The added advantage is when the client does move on you will be ahead of the learning curve. Even if you do develop from home there is no reason that you cannot develop desktop apps on a W8/8.1 machine. Visual Studio still installs on W8/8.1 so just choose the proper solution type for the target environment.
**_Once you lose your pride the rest is easy.
I would agree with you but then we both would be wrong._**
The report of my death was an exaggeration - Mark Twain Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopes -
If you're going to multiquote and refute every single piece then it would be nice if you backed up something with evidence. My "hand-waving" is all someone can get if they don't actually provide legitimate problem, if anyone has a problem then they should explain it clearly to get help. Just saying everything's bad gets no where. What's things are harder to do exactly? install what "alternate solutions"? The only advocated software I've ever seen is bringing back the old start menu, but that isn't a benefit. Plenty of things that make multi-tasking less effective? like what?? While the OP doesn't explicitly state it, a few things he mentions sounds like he's strongly referring to the Metro UI, which is obviously "NOT" for development or any power-user task. The original desktop UI is still there and it's vastly improved over Win7 (Such as no more useless Aero, much better explorer window, much more detailed Task manager, plenty of better shortcuts etc.), the only big difference is that there's a full screen start menu which isn't exactly a problem.
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I've used W8 for more than a year on my non-touch-based Ultrabook, and find it a pain to use. The OP is right Yes it's only small things, and yes you get used to it. But no, I still don't like it, and there's so many small things that they add up to quite a heap of annoyance! To make a point: I never missed the Start Menu, which so many people point out to be one of the bigger issues. There are much more annoying changes that blatantly ignore the needs of a typical desktop user: 1. Lack of discoverability 1.1 Main functionality missing I don't mind if they 'moved my cheese'. But I do mind that W8 keeps hiding lots of functionality and settings without good reason: why do I need to move around the mouse pointer all over the screen just to see the buttons that provide the main functionality? I have a full HD screen on my Ultrabook, but there's no way to make the main function buttons always visible? WTF?:confused: 1.2 Inane Settings Dialogs I've desperately tried to figure out how to properly set up my Ultrabooks energy settings so I can properly use it while commuting. To date, I've found no less than 4 (Four!) different dialogs that contain relevant settings with some available across two or more dialogs but some only in one place - so I really need to know about all four just to set up everything properly. I've found that it helps to have them all open at the same time, because changes in one place may affect settings in another! But it gets even worse: I've found Windows update to repeatedly reset my energy settings to the default! :mad: 1.3 Inane 'flat' design In many dialogs and even on the desktop (e. g. Charm :doh: bars), simple lablels are indistinguishable from actionable GUI elements (I will not call them buttons, because they aren't buttons by any definition!). You have to mouse-over just to recognize whether or not there's a command hidden under! :thumbsdown: 2. Inane Windows Update policies As pointed out above in 1.2, there's reason to modify Update settings. However, those were regularly being reset together with the rest of my system settings :omg: I've spent months to find the right settings to finally prevent Windows from breaking my system every month X| Even more inane - or I might say catastrophically stupid - was that automatic forced update after I got a battery low warning! Needless to say, the system powered down in the middle of an update, while I was commuting, with no power connector near. It took me more than an hour to fix that mess aga
Where to start. Most of what your said is you perception, but I am not a W8/8.1 fanboy so if you don't like it by all means use W7. W7 is the new XP.
Stefan_Lang wrote:
1. Lack of discoverability
Click the windows logo and start typing what you are looking for. After a few keystrokes a list of possible entries will appear. Select what you are looking for. As for the charmed bar there is a setting so it won't pop out in most situations. Google is your friend. Set windows update to inform you there are updates available but not install them. You then choose when and which updates are installed. That addresses your major complaints. That is if you want to fix things. It might be more fun to bitch about it. P.S. - I don't have a problem with windows update resetting my settings. Again Google is your friend to find out if others experience the same and how to get around the problem.
**_Once you lose your pride the rest is easy.
I would agree with you but then we both would be wrong._**
The report of my death was an exaggeration - Mark Twain Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopes -
Stefan_Lang wrote:
That got me scratching my head as well, until I realized he mant "hate", not "had".
That makes more sense.
Stefan_Lang wrote:
There's no good reason why there are only two possible window sizes for every application. That's fine for a phone screen, but not for a tablet, laptop or desktop!
I am not on a windows system right now so I can't test this out but I think you can shrink a metro app horizontally, not just full or half screen. this may help for metro apps[^] You are not limited to two sizes on the desktop. You can stretch or shrink the window from a non-metro app just like before.
Stefan_Lang wrote:
That may not be feasible. If you program for a living, the clients define the target platform. For a professional developer, it may therefore be more sensible to stick with W7. At least until the clients move on to W8
Unless you are working from home the client will provide you with a workstation with the proper OS and development environment. That does not preclude moving on in you personal life. The added advantage is when the client does move on you will be ahead of the learning curve. Even if you do develop from home there is no reason that you cannot develop desktop apps on a W8/8.1 machine. Visual Studio still installs on W8/8.1 so just choose the proper solution type for the target environment.
**_Once you lose your pride the rest is easy.
I would agree with you but then we both would be wrong._**
The report of my death was an exaggeration - Mark Twain Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopesI only brought up the size (and number of windows) limitation because you mentioned it. Me, I do not use Metro. At all. The link you posted is interesting, but in another way than you intended. It proves my point about lack of discoverability. Why is there no obvious way to change window arrangement? Why does it need an article to show users how it works? What was so bad about resizing windows by pulling at the borders that Metro is incapable of providing that feature? A Windows border that changes the mouse pointer to another icon when it's moving over it - that is a discoverable feature. A setting hidden in a jungle of badly organized option dialogs? Not so much! (and if you want to know where I got my bad attitude about W8 option dialogs from: just look at that article again!) I do realize that on a device with no mouse attached, and with a limited screen size, it may be difficult to catch and move a window border. But if that UI is meant for all devices, why on earth did the MS designers then focus all their efforts on creating an UI that only makes sense on a phone? Yes, there's a desktop. And, yes, on the desktop, resizing works just as we're used to (unless the charm bar gets in the way of course :doh: ). But MS made a point about Metro being the future, and the desktop UI going away. Once that happens it's no longer about who moved my cheese - it is about who stole it!
GOTOs are a bit like wire coat hangers: they tend to breed in the darkness, such that where there once were few, eventually there are many, and the program's architecture collapses beneath them. (Fran Poretto)
