I had to use an Apple machine in earnest for the first time in years
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My wife's school system for some reason has gone to the silver boxes. I had the opportunity recently to help her insert several pictures into a document she was creating. I couldn't find a way to get to the Word menu using the keyboard, so I had to keep moving my hands to use the track pad to perform the operation. After about 5 I said enough of this the rest will have to wait until I can get to work and ask some of my coworkers how to do this simple task on a mac. After some searching on their part, because they had never tried either, I finally have the keystrokes needed to access the menu in Word. Fn+Ctrl+F2. Just about as obvious as Ctrl+Atl+Delete.
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That is all. Actually it isn't. Want to move a folder? Ctrl-x --> correct destination --> Crtl-v. Nope, first of all you have to use "windows" key in place of ctrl, OK that's just a who moved my cheese thing, but really, every other OS I've used uses ctrl. So I used the correct keystrokes. Only windows-x doesn't cut the folder, it didn't even seem to copy properly. One of the regular mac users said it doesn't work, you have to copy, then delete, or use a mouse like a peasant. :wtf: :mad: :wtf: :mad::mad::mad: Then I tried to save a .sh file to improve the rubbish (compared to the windows (linux I would guess)) git command prompt/shell from Chrome. I can only seem to save to the equivalent of MyDocuments, or subfolders within it, no apparent way to even go up in the folder hierarchy. This might be me, but something like that should be obvious. These are just the tip of the iceberg, seriously all of the proper *NIXes I've used have had much better GUIs strapped on to them. Hell, using the terminal seems to be the easiest way to get stuff done.
Alberto Brandolini:
The amount of energy necessary to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it.
They're computers. OS, Unix, Xenix, Red Hat, Windows... they all have their own ways and quirks, but they all let you use the hardware that computers are made of. My only objection to apple computers is the bullsh*t they use to overinflate their prices*. * OTOH, my objection to apples phones/tabs is that they're cr@p by comparison to the competition
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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My wife's school system for some reason has gone to the silver boxes. I had the opportunity recently to help her insert several pictures into a document she was creating. I couldn't find a way to get to the Word menu using the keyboard, so I had to keep moving my hands to use the track pad to perform the operation. After about 5 I said enough of this the rest will have to wait until I can get to work and ask some of my coworkers how to do this simple task on a mac. After some searching on their part, because they had never tried either, I finally have the keystrokes needed to access the menu in Word. Fn+Ctrl+F2. Just about as obvious as Ctrl+Atl+Delete.
That's a throwback from when adobe and apple were best pals. It's because of adobe that apple computers got the rep for being "perfect for graphics" (despite the fact that photoshop for Windows was identical), but adobe always had a thing for three- and four-finger keyboard shortcuts. I think adobe wanted all keyboard shortcuts to be global, so they couldn't bring themselves to use the same shortcut for different things in different programs.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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In fact I think Apple did it first with Command-C - Ctrl-C in windows was used because they didn't have a command key! Windows used to us the insert and delete keys with sift (I think) So it's not trying to be different- it's being consistent!
PooperPig - Coming Soon
"Windows used to use the insert and delete keys with shift (I think)" ... it always has done, and 99% of the time it's shift/delete shift/insert that I use for cut/paste. I even use it for copy (with text) by cutting and immediately pasting, then pasting where I want the copy... just find that easier than the rather awkward ctrl-c / ctrl-v combinations (getting my little finger "lower" on the keyboard than my index finger).
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Mike Mullikin wrote:
drag and drop
This assumes: 1. You know where to drag from, e.g. where the downloaded file was saved -> did not appear, had to look with that "Finder" 2. You know where to drop -> no appearance of usb as mass media in the "Finder", but as an icon on the desktop :omg: About as intuitive as cutting a tree with a bread knife.
Mike Mullikin wrote:
I see I'm dealing with a crazy person.
Is it really necessary to put it on the wrong side of the window, and making a permutation of the buttons ? X|
~RaGE();
I think words like 'destiny' are a way of trying to find order where none exists. - Christian Graus Entropy isn't what it used to.
drag + drop also assumes that both source and destination are visible at the same time. On Windows (haven't tried on a mac) the display scrolls up/down if you hover at the top or bottom, but that tends to be slow anyway. If the source/destination are in different folder structures then it can be virtually impossible to drag/drop, and the only options are using the keyboard or menus. In this situation on Windows I'll either right-click the folder or use the menu key. Have really only used Mac for cross-browser compatibilty testing so, thankfully, have never had to do it there. Which is probably just as well, since I have a Mac mini and am not shelling out a huge amount on a mac-specific keyboard I only use once in a blue moon. I have a Windows USB keyboard attached, which doesn't have a command key and the Windows key doesn't seem to work as command... Windows Explorer is getting worse and worse with age, and more and more confusing. What with Favourites, and Libraries as well as the "proper" Computer view, there are multiple routes to the same physical location. Add in shortcuts and aliases and what you see is definitely not what you've got. I've ended up moving stuff into the same folder it came from before now. Bring back File Manager! :omg:
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That is all. Actually it isn't. Want to move a folder? Ctrl-x --> correct destination --> Crtl-v. Nope, first of all you have to use "windows" key in place of ctrl, OK that's just a who moved my cheese thing, but really, every other OS I've used uses ctrl. So I used the correct keystrokes. Only windows-x doesn't cut the folder, it didn't even seem to copy properly. One of the regular mac users said it doesn't work, you have to copy, then delete, or use a mouse like a peasant. :wtf: :mad: :wtf: :mad::mad::mad: Then I tried to save a .sh file to improve the rubbish (compared to the windows (linux I would guess)) git command prompt/shell from Chrome. I can only seem to save to the equivalent of MyDocuments, or subfolders within it, no apparent way to even go up in the folder hierarchy. This might be me, but something like that should be obvious. These are just the tip of the iceberg, seriously all of the proper *NIXes I've used have had much better GUIs strapped on to them. Hell, using the terminal seems to be the easiest way to get stuff done.
Alberto Brandolini:
The amount of energy necessary to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it.
I'm far from being a lover of all things Apple (just ask my family or anyone that knows me), but to be fair it always takes some time to adjust to another OS. I similarly had difficulty using Apple/Mac since I've been a Windows user for so long, but that can't all be blamed on the OS. Sheep or not, Apple users similarly have a problem switching to Windows. Now on to my diatribe... My biggest criticism of Apple is that their product would be better if they spent as much time perfecting a functional and intuitive UI/UX as they did: 1. Trying to make something new and unique not because it's better, but because it is unique to them and they can tell people that it is better 2. Suing people over implementing techniques similar to those they created in #1 (even more frustrating knowing how much they've ripped off from others - I love to point out to Apple fanbois the original ipod designs from the British shoe salesman) 3. Marketing it and convincing the sheeple that their is no substitute (in some cases, copying others in the process and acting as if they were the first to bring this idea to the world - "wow, a flat design aesthetic, that's just brilliant") My biggest criticism of Windows on the UI/UX front is their desire to cram new things down people's throats (ribbons, start menus, etc.). I know Apple does it all the time, but that's their market and their users (whether they realize it or not) expect it. Nearly every flaw that can be tied back to the failure of the acceptance of Windows 8 in the marketplace was predictable - and not in a 20/20 hindsight case, it was well known from test groups and pre-launch feedback. But still they pushed ahead. Bold. And stupid. As for Apple the corporation and it's leaders - to my knowledge (and I welcome corrections if I'm wrong), Apple has contributed far less to the community than other market-leading companies. Microsoft and Google both actively pursue research and are more open than Apple - Microsoft has become significantly more open over the last decade and really hasn't received enough credit for it. And as much as I may respect Jobs as a businessman, he was ruthless (even ripping off Wozniak if the rumours are true); I sincerely hope Gates is better remembered in the future (not for his business endeavours, but for his philanthropy). Don't get me wrong - I know Gates/Microsoft, Google/Skynet, and others have some dark facts too. The rest of my dislike for Apple has more to do with the blind hypocritical followers than with Apple itself - but
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That is all. Actually it isn't. Want to move a folder? Ctrl-x --> correct destination --> Crtl-v. Nope, first of all you have to use "windows" key in place of ctrl, OK that's just a who moved my cheese thing, but really, every other OS I've used uses ctrl. So I used the correct keystrokes. Only windows-x doesn't cut the folder, it didn't even seem to copy properly. One of the regular mac users said it doesn't work, you have to copy, then delete, or use a mouse like a peasant. :wtf: :mad: :wtf: :mad::mad::mad: Then I tried to save a .sh file to improve the rubbish (compared to the windows (linux I would guess)) git command prompt/shell from Chrome. I can only seem to save to the equivalent of MyDocuments, or subfolders within it, no apparent way to even go up in the folder hierarchy. This might be me, but something like that should be obvious. These are just the tip of the iceberg, seriously all of the proper *NIXes I've used have had much better GUIs strapped on to them. Hell, using the terminal seems to be the easiest way to get stuff done.
Alberto Brandolini:
The amount of energy necessary to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it.
I have a MacBook Pro from my job. My favorite thing about it is BootCamp. I used that to install Windows 8 and haven't purposefully booted into osX in months. My least favorite features are related to the keyboard. 1. The alt and the "windows" keys are swapped. 2. There is no Delete key. 3. They've put the power button where the delete key should be. I deal with these issues by almost always having a full size keyboard (and monitor) plugged in. When that isn't an option (coffee shop days etc) I use the following fixes. 1. I run an AutoHotKey script to switch the alt and windows keys into the right spots 2. Curse while moving my cursor to use the backspace key or in the case of email clicking the delete button 3. Curse angrily while waiting for it to turn back on
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Rage wrote:
nothing here was intuitive to me
Thing is, it's not intuitive on most operating systems - just that you've learned over the years how to use one, and now try to use another with the expectation of it working the same - and it doesn't. Sit an experienced windows 7 user in front of Windows 8 and they are more flummoxed - nothing is intuitive about (for example) pressing Windows-C, selecting Settings (FFS) then Power, then Shut Down - but once you have used it for a while, you get used to it and it becomes second nature. Judging something inferior because it is different is racism, surely :)
PooperPig - Coming Soon
_Maxxx_ wrote:
Thing is, it's not intuitive on most operating systems - just that you've learned over the years how to use one
I think that some of the older UIs were a lot more intuitive than the new ones. Heck, if you look at some of the basic GTK based UIs, they're a whole heck of a lot more intuitive than the newer, more complex ones. One of the principles of good UI design I learned some time ago was not to hide things, even when they weren't available. That way the user knew where it was from seeing it, even if disabled. I don't think new UI's really apply some of those old principles anymore, instead they hide layers and show you what they think you want to see or should see without really considering that what you want to see is really task specific (although Linux is really doing a good job of this recently).
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That is all. Actually it isn't. Want to move a folder? Ctrl-x --> correct destination --> Crtl-v. Nope, first of all you have to use "windows" key in place of ctrl, OK that's just a who moved my cheese thing, but really, every other OS I've used uses ctrl. So I used the correct keystrokes. Only windows-x doesn't cut the folder, it didn't even seem to copy properly. One of the regular mac users said it doesn't work, you have to copy, then delete, or use a mouse like a peasant. :wtf: :mad: :wtf: :mad::mad::mad: Then I tried to save a .sh file to improve the rubbish (compared to the windows (linux I would guess)) git command prompt/shell from Chrome. I can only seem to save to the equivalent of MyDocuments, or subfolders within it, no apparent way to even go up in the folder hierarchy. This might be me, but something like that should be obvious. These are just the tip of the iceberg, seriously all of the proper *NIXes I've used have had much better GUIs strapped on to them. Hell, using the terminal seems to be the easiest way to get stuff done.
Alberto Brandolini:
The amount of energy necessary to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it.
I feel ya. 'wrote an obj c app a few years ago - thus, bought a mac mini. I forget how long it took me to figure out how to rename a file ... oh, use the return key ... right. Hmmm, return == rename. Sorry, Apple defenders, that's just lame. Almost as lame as a nix I used years ago where one could use "*" in a file name.
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That is all. Actually it isn't. Want to move a folder? Ctrl-x --> correct destination --> Crtl-v. Nope, first of all you have to use "windows" key in place of ctrl, OK that's just a who moved my cheese thing, but really, every other OS I've used uses ctrl. So I used the correct keystrokes. Only windows-x doesn't cut the folder, it didn't even seem to copy properly. One of the regular mac users said it doesn't work, you have to copy, then delete, or use a mouse like a peasant. :wtf: :mad: :wtf: :mad::mad::mad: Then I tried to save a .sh file to improve the rubbish (compared to the windows (linux I would guess)) git command prompt/shell from Chrome. I can only seem to save to the equivalent of MyDocuments, or subfolders within it, no apparent way to even go up in the folder hierarchy. This might be me, but something like that should be obvious. These are just the tip of the iceberg, seriously all of the proper *NIXes I've used have had much better GUIs strapped on to them. Hell, using the terminal seems to be the easiest way to get stuff done.
Alberto Brandolini:
The amount of energy necessary to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it.
If you really want help, using the right words would help people help you. If you just want to complain, can't help you anyway. If you're trying to cut and paste, it took about 10 seconds to look up Command-Option-V, which changes copy paste to cut and paste. I tried it and it worked fine cutting and pasting a couple files. Command-C to copy, Command-Option-V to paste. A little different than others, not too bad. There's other things on that page that could help you too it seems. [^] To navigate up and down folders in UNIX and Linux, including a Mac, you "cd .." to move up, "cd /" to get to the root of the file system, just like any *Nix and it works fine. If you don't have permission that's a feature, not being able to, and if you have the password Macs let you sudo and su just fine, pretty much like Ubuntu. I prefer the Mac interface flavor, but that's personal style and preference. I can see some people liking things more stripped down or whatever but it works pretty good for me. I like that I have full UNIX, full sudo/root control, and I think the interface AND commercial package support beats every Linux I've tried from Debian, Ubuntu, Fedora, CentOS and even Mandrake back in the day. I doubt you tried it "in earnest" though, because you seem smart and it took seconds to look up how to cut and paste. I admit, I just dragged or copied and deleted, but it took seconds to find out how, once I cared to look. If you're talking about Chrome's programming not letting you move up and down the system, that's a chrome thing, not a Mac thing. Maybe google does that on purpose to Mac users :) I don't use chrome though, so can't help you there. If you like chrome, I'd give aviator browser a shot, much more secure and private, and it's based on chromium. https://www.whitehatsec.com/aviator/[^]
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That is all. Actually it isn't. Want to move a folder? Ctrl-x --> correct destination --> Crtl-v. Nope, first of all you have to use "windows" key in place of ctrl, OK that's just a who moved my cheese thing, but really, every other OS I've used uses ctrl. So I used the correct keystrokes. Only windows-x doesn't cut the folder, it didn't even seem to copy properly. One of the regular mac users said it doesn't work, you have to copy, then delete, or use a mouse like a peasant. :wtf: :mad: :wtf: :mad::mad::mad: Then I tried to save a .sh file to improve the rubbish (compared to the windows (linux I would guess)) git command prompt/shell from Chrome. I can only seem to save to the equivalent of MyDocuments, or subfolders within it, no apparent way to even go up in the folder hierarchy. This might be me, but something like that should be obvious. These are just the tip of the iceberg, seriously all of the proper *NIXes I've used have had much better GUIs strapped on to them. Hell, using the terminal seems to be the easiest way to get stuff done.
Alberto Brandolini:
The amount of energy necessary to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it.
Did you read the manual?
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Did you read the manual?
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Alberto Brandolini:
The amount of energy necessary to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it.
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That is all. Actually it isn't. Want to move a folder? Ctrl-x --> correct destination --> Crtl-v. Nope, first of all you have to use "windows" key in place of ctrl, OK that's just a who moved my cheese thing, but really, every other OS I've used uses ctrl. So I used the correct keystrokes. Only windows-x doesn't cut the folder, it didn't even seem to copy properly. One of the regular mac users said it doesn't work, you have to copy, then delete, or use a mouse like a peasant. :wtf: :mad: :wtf: :mad::mad::mad: Then I tried to save a .sh file to improve the rubbish (compared to the windows (linux I would guess)) git command prompt/shell from Chrome. I can only seem to save to the equivalent of MyDocuments, or subfolders within it, no apparent way to even go up in the folder hierarchy. This might be me, but something like that should be obvious. These are just the tip of the iceberg, seriously all of the proper *NIXes I've used have had much better GUIs strapped on to them. Hell, using the terminal seems to be the easiest way to get stuff done.
Alberto Brandolini:
The amount of energy necessary to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it.
"Nope, first of all you have to use "windows" key in place of ctrl, OK that's just a who moved my cheese thing, but really, every other OS I've used uses ctrl." Ironically, the Mac OS was the first commercial GUI and when they sued Microsoft for copying code in Windows one of the arguments was "look, you've even used all of our shortcut keys, c for copy, v for paste..." The reality is that Microsoft moved the command key to control because non-Mac keyboards didn't have a command key. Newer keyboards later added the alt and windows keys, but the shortcuts were already mapped to the control key at that point. "Only windows-x doesn't cut the folder, it didn't even seem to copy properly. One of the regular mac users said it doesn't work, you have to copy, then delete, or use a mouse like a peasant." The Mac OS was designed for use with a mouse. A simple drag and drop suffices for most uses. You can hold down combinations of the command key, shift key, and option key while dragging to copy, move, or create a shortcut. "I can only seem to save to the equivalent of MyDocuments, or subfolders within it, no apparent way to even go up in the folder hierarchy." Not sure if you were in a save dialog box, Finder, or terminal, but in the Finder command (windows key) clicking the title bar will give you the folder hierarchy in a pull down menu. The save dialog box has a similar feature. I'm not near a Mac so I can't tell you exactly how, but it's there. Terminal is the same as any other *nix. Be aware though that the *nix OSes moved the dir command to ls. ;) I'm much more comfortable using Mac OS X than any other operating systems (even though I make my living in a Windows only environment), most everything feels more natural to me. I have run into the "Why can't I cut and paste a file" issue before, but most of my gripes go the other way -like if I select a bunch of files and double click on the selected group why does Windows only open one file? (or press ctrl-O while a group of files is selected for that matter) Or why can't I select the text in a Windows dialog box to paste somewhere else? (On a Mac, not only can you select the text, you can drag and drop it to the desktop to create a text clipping file)
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Mike Mullikin wrote:
Had to be the interface... couldn't be your ignorance of it. :rolleyes:
It was specifically his ignorance of it that he was complaining about. There is an expected learning curve when using new systems, but some things are typically left to convention. (you learn about that in UX classes). So the complaint was that some basic things that are the same across os's are different here. The only time you can really get away with changing things that are considered normal by convention, are if they are are intuitive. And by intuitive I mean that you could figure it out without an explanation from a skilled user. It would be like a terminal that you couldn't get out of by typing "Exit" . (I've ran into one of these somewhere, but can't remember where. Some database terminal). It's just annoying, even if the normal users know and remember it.
Elephant elephant elephant, sunshine sunshine sunshine
loctrice wrote:
So the complaint was that some basic things that are the same across os's are different here.
But that's really not fair since many of these conventions predate Windows...
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That is all. Actually it isn't. Want to move a folder? Ctrl-x --> correct destination --> Crtl-v. Nope, first of all you have to use "windows" key in place of ctrl, OK that's just a who moved my cheese thing, but really, every other OS I've used uses ctrl. So I used the correct keystrokes. Only windows-x doesn't cut the folder, it didn't even seem to copy properly. One of the regular mac users said it doesn't work, you have to copy, then delete, or use a mouse like a peasant. :wtf: :mad: :wtf: :mad::mad::mad: Then I tried to save a .sh file to improve the rubbish (compared to the windows (linux I would guess)) git command prompt/shell from Chrome. I can only seem to save to the equivalent of MyDocuments, or subfolders within it, no apparent way to even go up in the folder hierarchy. This might be me, but something like that should be obvious. These are just the tip of the iceberg, seriously all of the proper *NIXes I've used have had much better GUIs strapped on to them. Hell, using the terminal seems to be the easiest way to get stuff done.
Alberto Brandolini:
The amount of energy necessary to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it.
Keith wrote: "Actually it isn't. Want to move a folder? Ctrl-x --> correct destination --> Crtl-v. Nope, first of all you have to use "windows" key in place of ctrl, OK that's just a who moved my cheese thing, but really, every other OS I've used uses ctrl." Since the Mac UI was created, this has been true. Windows was not developed until Mac OS was already established. So it really was Windows that isn't following the model. Nice try, though.
___ Br.
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One of the most basic conventions of today's OS GUI's is "drag and drop". Yet he seemingly refused to use it in favor of keyboard shortcuts[^] :rolleyes: where no such convention exists.
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. ~ George Washington
... where no such convention exists ... IBM Common User Access[^] The Windows Interface Guidelines for Software Design[^]
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... where no such convention exists ... IBM Common User Access[^] The Windows Interface Guidelines for Software Design[^]
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"Windows used to use the insert and delete keys with shift (I think)" ... it always has done, and 99% of the time it's shift/delete shift/insert that I use for cut/paste. I even use it for copy (with text) by cutting and immediately pasting, then pasting where I want the copy... just find that easier than the rather awkward ctrl-c / ctrl-v combinations (getting my little finger "lower" on the keyboard than my index finger).
I had to use an application where the old CUA keys were the only way to defeat the Ctrl+C protection - or, more probably, bug. :-\
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Rage wrote:
nothing here was intuitive to me
Thing is, it's not intuitive on most operating systems - just that you've learned over the years how to use one, and now try to use another with the expectation of it working the same - and it doesn't. Sit an experienced windows 7 user in front of Windows 8 and they are more flummoxed - nothing is intuitive about (for example) pressing Windows-C, selecting Settings (FFS) then Power, then Shut Down - but once you have used it for a while, you get used to it and it becomes second nature. Judging something inferior because it is different is racism, surely :)
PooperPig - Coming Soon
Did you know that: - you can shut down your Windows machine by shortly pressing the power button - it is hard to buy a decent, but cheap keyboard without power keys - you can shut down your Windows machine by pressing Alt+F4 on the desktop - common user habit, closing all windows before shutdown :) but all the above is obsolete knowledge since there is more laptops at the hands of the people not living under a system administrator, and just closing the lid do the trick.
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One thing I have really learned to appreciate about windows is the context menu. If you're in a new program and don't know what you can do, right click, give me some ideas. I'm sure apples are great to use once you get familiar with them, however, I have never found them intuitive. In college, ohhh.... the late 90's I was in a computer lab programming. I saved my program to my 3.5 inch floppy drive, and I go to eject the disk... Awesome, there's a button right below (or maybe above I don't remember) the drive, so I press it. Yes, I did ignore the fact that it had the universal icon for power, and I turned the computer off. Well how the hell do you get the disk out then? After asking the lab manager, I was told I need to drag the floppy drive on the desktop to the trash...
I have left all Apple when Quick Time became the de facto video player of the early web. Seriously, a Sokol radio like volume control[^], hidden in a drawer, from the kings of the UI/UX? :omg:
