Would you people seriously just *stop* doing unpaid work already?!?!
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No.Unbillable.Work! If the customer isn't paying for it, the customer doesn't get it. Call me crazy, but I bill for every single hour I work...like I am supposed to. It infuriates me when I get into a project with salaried employees that commit "heroic effort" to making their screw ups not look like screw ups and make my 40-45 hour a week billable commitment look diminished. I had a guy tell me first thing when we got in that he was working until 2:00 this morning completing something because the customer ballooned our scope but held firm to the original deadline. What does project management tell said customer when he did this? "Ok." The real problem is that giving project management what they want just reinforces to them that it is ok to start death marches; your reward for completing one is that you get to start your next. I get paid or you do not get work done. No. Unbillable. Work. STOP IT!!!!
"I need build Skynet. Plz send code"
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Because overworked employees are not productive. Nor happy. No matter how much they fake it. Productive and happy people think better and produce better code.
Jeremy Falcon
But salaried employees get bonuses, contract ones don't. The perceived effort/input/success of an individual employee can reward with significantly higher bonus than one who does the bare minimum. Contractors then moan that they don't get a bonus, well of course not, you are paid for what you do - your terms! ;P
Dave Find Me On:Web|Facebook|Twitter|LinkedIn Folding Stats: Team CodeProject
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Because overworked employees are not productive. Nor happy. No matter how much they fake it. Productive and happy people think better and produce better code.
Jeremy Falcon
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This girl I used to work with was complaining once about all the extra time we were putting in to get a job out the door...she said, 'All this extra time we're putting in reduces my hourly pay to "do you want fries with that?"' ...made me laugh...
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Very true but then they're going to be replaced by vending machines and robots...McDonalds will become a cafeteria. More programming work for us... 'Woops, sorry!...the code threw an unhandled exception and injected special sauce into the cherry pie!' :)
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No.Unbillable.Work! If the customer isn't paying for it, the customer doesn't get it. Call me crazy, but I bill for every single hour I work...like I am supposed to. It infuriates me when I get into a project with salaried employees that commit "heroic effort" to making their screw ups not look like screw ups and make my 40-45 hour a week billable commitment look diminished. I had a guy tell me first thing when we got in that he was working until 2:00 this morning completing something because the customer ballooned our scope but held firm to the original deadline. What does project management tell said customer when he did this? "Ok." The real problem is that giving project management what they want just reinforces to them that it is ok to start death marches; your reward for completing one is that you get to start your next. I get paid or you do not get work done. No. Unbillable. Work. STOP IT!!!!
"I need build Skynet. Plz send code"
I agree, but the bigger issue is that working "unbilled" hours will often adversely affect estimates for future projects. The project manager must know the actual time spent for the current project. Remember that "extra" hours spent on the current project are probably due to a bad estimate based upon what was understood from the previous project. While no estimate will ever be accurate, at least start with good data.
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Very true but then they're going to be replaced by vending machines and robots...McDonalds will become a cafeteria. More programming work for us... 'Woops, sorry!...the code threw an unhandled exception and injected special sauce into the cherry pie!' :)
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Because overworked employees are not productive. Nor happy. No matter how much they fake it. Productive and happy people think better and produce better code.
Jeremy Falcon
I'd have to agree. It really surprised me: I had always been in an environment where you ate at your desk, worked long hours, some weekends - mostly unpaid, but for the occasional "thank you" - then I started a new job with a different company and on the first day I was told (with some impatience) that they were waiting to lock up the building at 17:02. On the second day, one of the order processing ladies "had a quiet word" and told me to stop working my lunch hour. They suspected that if I didn't they would have to start... :laugh: So I found myself working 09:00 to 17:00 (13:00 on Fridays) even after I was given the key to the building with a full hour off for lunch. And b*gg*r me! I was getting more done... :omg: I think it has two effects: you focus better while you are working, and the breaks let you relax and become more creative at the same time. So much so that I don't work a full hour any more: I take regular breaks and do something different - come here for example - and it works. Counter-intuitive, I know.
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
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Very true but then they're going to be replaced by vending machines and robots...McDonalds will become a cafeteria. More programming work for us... 'Woops, sorry!...the code threw an unhandled exception and injected special sauce into the cherry pie!' :)
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chriselst wrote:
but no maximum.
Yes there is, 24 hours in one day. ;P
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No.Unbillable.Work! If the customer isn't paying for it, the customer doesn't get it. Call me crazy, but I bill for every single hour I work...like I am supposed to. It infuriates me when I get into a project with salaried employees that commit "heroic effort" to making their screw ups not look like screw ups and make my 40-45 hour a week billable commitment look diminished. I had a guy tell me first thing when we got in that he was working until 2:00 this morning completing something because the customer ballooned our scope but held firm to the original deadline. What does project management tell said customer when he did this? "Ok." The real problem is that giving project management what they want just reinforces to them that it is ok to start death marches; your reward for completing one is that you get to start your next. I get paid or you do not get work done. No. Unbillable. Work. STOP IT!!!!
"I need build Skynet. Plz send code"
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But salaried employees get bonuses, contract ones don't. The perceived effort/input/success of an individual employee can reward with significantly higher bonus than one who does the bare minimum. Contractors then moan that they don't get a bonus, well of course not, you are paid for what you do - your terms! ;P
Dave Find Me On:Web|Facebook|Twitter|LinkedIn Folding Stats: Team CodeProject
I'm not dissing the salary concept, I'm simply stating that anyone that's overworked cannot be happy. Money is not worth trading your entire life for.
Jeremy Falcon
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I'd have to agree. It really surprised me: I had always been in an environment where you ate at your desk, worked long hours, some weekends - mostly unpaid, but for the occasional "thank you" - then I started a new job with a different company and on the first day I was told (with some impatience) that they were waiting to lock up the building at 17:02. On the second day, one of the order processing ladies "had a quiet word" and told me to stop working my lunch hour. They suspected that if I didn't they would have to start... :laugh: So I found myself working 09:00 to 17:00 (13:00 on Fridays) even after I was given the key to the building with a full hour off for lunch. And b*gg*r me! I was getting more done... :omg: I think it has two effects: you focus better while you are working, and the breaks let you relax and become more creative at the same time. So much so that I don't work a full hour any more: I take regular breaks and do something different - come here for example - and it works. Counter-intuitive, I know.
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
OriginalGriff wrote:
Counter-intuitive, I know.
It's true though. The brain is a muscle. And like any other muscle, it can be overworked and destroyed. We need to give our "thinking" brains some to rest and recoup to always be on our A game. The folks that rot in front of their computer and drug themselves up on coffee tend to act more like zombies than anything else. You just can't beat rest to keep the brain sharp.
Jeremy Falcon
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I'd have to agree. It really surprised me: I had always been in an environment where you ate at your desk, worked long hours, some weekends - mostly unpaid, but for the occasional "thank you" - then I started a new job with a different company and on the first day I was told (with some impatience) that they were waiting to lock up the building at 17:02. On the second day, one of the order processing ladies "had a quiet word" and told me to stop working my lunch hour. They suspected that if I didn't they would have to start... :laugh: So I found myself working 09:00 to 17:00 (13:00 on Fridays) even after I was given the key to the building with a full hour off for lunch. And b*gg*r me! I was getting more done... :omg: I think it has two effects: you focus better while you are working, and the breaks let you relax and become more creative at the same time. So much so that I don't work a full hour any more: I take regular breaks and do something different - come here for example - and it works. Counter-intuitive, I know.
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
No no, true words coming from a self employed man :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: However, all joke aside, I think your right. But I also think it matters what you do, a research project it might be a bit different than in a boring this must be done as fast and correct as possible thing.
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No no, true words coming from a self employed man :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: However, all joke aside, I think your right. But I also think it matters what you do, a research project it might be a bit different than in a boring this must be done as fast and correct as possible thing.
Not necessarily: when you are "fresh" you make less mistakes, so you don't have to go back so much and fix them - which can take more time than getting it right in the first place. See? I said it was counter-intuitive! :laugh:
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
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OriginalGriff wrote:
Counter-intuitive, I know.
It's true though. The brain is a muscle. And like any other muscle, it can be overworked and destroyed. We need to give our "thinking" brains some to rest and recoup to always be on our A game. The folks that rot in front of their computer and drug themselves up on coffee tend to act more like zombies than anything else. You just can't beat rest to keep the brain sharp.
Jeremy Falcon
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
The brain is a muscle. And like any other muscle...
I agree that the brain needs rest and all that but let's not be silly... it ain't a muscle. :doh:
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. ~ George Washington
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Jeremy Falcon wrote:
The brain is a muscle. And like any other muscle...
I agree that the brain needs rest and all that but let's not be silly... it ain't a muscle. :doh:
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. ~ George Washington
Mike Mullikin wrote:
it ain't a muscle.
Wrong. You're just arguing semantics, but it functions just like a muscle. When you work a muscle it becomes stronger. When you work your brain it becomes quicker and clearer. When you overwork either, they both break down and become damaged. Do some research before dismissing it, or else you'll get stuck in old ways of thinking. Here's a quick Google to even get you started... http://kids.frontiersin.org/articles/20/your_brain_is_like_a_muscle/[^]
Jeremy Falcon
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Not necessarily: when you are "fresh" you make less mistakes, so you don't have to go back so much and fix them - which can take more time than getting it right in the first place. See? I said it was counter-intuitive! :laugh:
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
They do make mistakes, but people like Euler won't care anyway. It seems like the couldn't stop, as they really couldn't imagine doing anything else. He is describing doing maths when his grandchildren sat in his lap. :) While most of us do things that we know what to do, its just to get it done. After work we generally want to do something completely different, like solving CCC or whatever. :-D
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Mike Mullikin wrote:
it ain't a muscle.
Wrong. You're just arguing semantics, but it functions just like a muscle. When you work a muscle it becomes stronger. When you work your brain it becomes quicker and clearer. When you overwork either, they both break down and become damaged. Do some research before dismissing it, or else you'll get stuck in old ways of thinking. Here's a quick Google to even get you started... http://kids.frontiersin.org/articles/20/your_brain_is_like_a_muscle/[^]
Jeremy Falcon
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
You're just arguing semantics
I'm not arguing anything... You made a statement that is totally false. The brain is an organ not a muscle. PERIOD. I agree that the brain (like muscles) needs to be "exercised" to become / stay strong but physiologically the brain is totally different than a muscle.
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. ~ George Washington
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Quite. I read is as he's brilliant, and everyone else is shit, which is why he gets paid the big bucks as a contractor, but because the shit salaried people work longer hours than he is prepared to it makes his sticking rigidly to the clock and going home look bad. He isn't bad, he's good, he's better in fact. It's so unfair. Beats fists on floor, threatens to hold breath until passes out, and so on.
Some men are born mediocre, some men achieve mediocrity, and some men have mediocrity thrust upon them.
Well...I *am* pretty awesome, but that's beside the point; thank you very much for noticing. The larger point is that expectations of estimates get created based upon unrealistic results. Billing an 8 hour day but spending "14" hours on those tasks pollutes any project plan and makes honest assessments of the effort necessary to complete work look "slow." Then you lose more time trying to explain to people why things won't just be done when they come in the next morning as if by magic. Past behavior sets future expectations and "your" lies end up directly impacting my ability to sell an honest product.
"I need build Skynet. Plz send code"
