Would you people seriously just *stop* doing unpaid work already?!?!
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chriselst wrote:
but no maximum.
Yes there is, 24 hours in one day. ;P
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No.Unbillable.Work! If the customer isn't paying for it, the customer doesn't get it. Call me crazy, but I bill for every single hour I work...like I am supposed to. It infuriates me when I get into a project with salaried employees that commit "heroic effort" to making their screw ups not look like screw ups and make my 40-45 hour a week billable commitment look diminished. I had a guy tell me first thing when we got in that he was working until 2:00 this morning completing something because the customer ballooned our scope but held firm to the original deadline. What does project management tell said customer when he did this? "Ok." The real problem is that giving project management what they want just reinforces to them that it is ok to start death marches; your reward for completing one is that you get to start your next. I get paid or you do not get work done. No. Unbillable. Work. STOP IT!!!!
"I need build Skynet. Plz send code"
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But salaried employees get bonuses, contract ones don't. The perceived effort/input/success of an individual employee can reward with significantly higher bonus than one who does the bare minimum. Contractors then moan that they don't get a bonus, well of course not, you are paid for what you do - your terms! ;P
Dave Find Me On:Web|Facebook|Twitter|LinkedIn Folding Stats: Team CodeProject
I'm not dissing the salary concept, I'm simply stating that anyone that's overworked cannot be happy. Money is not worth trading your entire life for.
Jeremy Falcon
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I'd have to agree. It really surprised me: I had always been in an environment where you ate at your desk, worked long hours, some weekends - mostly unpaid, but for the occasional "thank you" - then I started a new job with a different company and on the first day I was told (with some impatience) that they were waiting to lock up the building at 17:02. On the second day, one of the order processing ladies "had a quiet word" and told me to stop working my lunch hour. They suspected that if I didn't they would have to start... :laugh: So I found myself working 09:00 to 17:00 (13:00 on Fridays) even after I was given the key to the building with a full hour off for lunch. And b*gg*r me! I was getting more done... :omg: I think it has two effects: you focus better while you are working, and the breaks let you relax and become more creative at the same time. So much so that I don't work a full hour any more: I take regular breaks and do something different - come here for example - and it works. Counter-intuitive, I know.
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
OriginalGriff wrote:
Counter-intuitive, I know.
It's true though. The brain is a muscle. And like any other muscle, it can be overworked and destroyed. We need to give our "thinking" brains some to rest and recoup to always be on our A game. The folks that rot in front of their computer and drug themselves up on coffee tend to act more like zombies than anything else. You just can't beat rest to keep the brain sharp.
Jeremy Falcon
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I'd have to agree. It really surprised me: I had always been in an environment where you ate at your desk, worked long hours, some weekends - mostly unpaid, but for the occasional "thank you" - then I started a new job with a different company and on the first day I was told (with some impatience) that they were waiting to lock up the building at 17:02. On the second day, one of the order processing ladies "had a quiet word" and told me to stop working my lunch hour. They suspected that if I didn't they would have to start... :laugh: So I found myself working 09:00 to 17:00 (13:00 on Fridays) even after I was given the key to the building with a full hour off for lunch. And b*gg*r me! I was getting more done... :omg: I think it has two effects: you focus better while you are working, and the breaks let you relax and become more creative at the same time. So much so that I don't work a full hour any more: I take regular breaks and do something different - come here for example - and it works. Counter-intuitive, I know.
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
No no, true words coming from a self employed man :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: However, all joke aside, I think your right. But I also think it matters what you do, a research project it might be a bit different than in a boring this must be done as fast and correct as possible thing.
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No no, true words coming from a self employed man :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: However, all joke aside, I think your right. But I also think it matters what you do, a research project it might be a bit different than in a boring this must be done as fast and correct as possible thing.
Not necessarily: when you are "fresh" you make less mistakes, so you don't have to go back so much and fix them - which can take more time than getting it right in the first place. See? I said it was counter-intuitive! :laugh:
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
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OriginalGriff wrote:
Counter-intuitive, I know.
It's true though. The brain is a muscle. And like any other muscle, it can be overworked and destroyed. We need to give our "thinking" brains some to rest and recoup to always be on our A game. The folks that rot in front of their computer and drug themselves up on coffee tend to act more like zombies than anything else. You just can't beat rest to keep the brain sharp.
Jeremy Falcon
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
The brain is a muscle. And like any other muscle...
I agree that the brain needs rest and all that but let's not be silly... it ain't a muscle. :doh:
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. ~ George Washington
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Jeremy Falcon wrote:
The brain is a muscle. And like any other muscle...
I agree that the brain needs rest and all that but let's not be silly... it ain't a muscle. :doh:
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. ~ George Washington
Mike Mullikin wrote:
it ain't a muscle.
Wrong. You're just arguing semantics, but it functions just like a muscle. When you work a muscle it becomes stronger. When you work your brain it becomes quicker and clearer. When you overwork either, they both break down and become damaged. Do some research before dismissing it, or else you'll get stuck in old ways of thinking. Here's a quick Google to even get you started... http://kids.frontiersin.org/articles/20/your_brain_is_like_a_muscle/[^]
Jeremy Falcon
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Not necessarily: when you are "fresh" you make less mistakes, so you don't have to go back so much and fix them - which can take more time than getting it right in the first place. See? I said it was counter-intuitive! :laugh:
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
They do make mistakes, but people like Euler won't care anyway. It seems like the couldn't stop, as they really couldn't imagine doing anything else. He is describing doing maths when his grandchildren sat in his lap. :) While most of us do things that we know what to do, its just to get it done. After work we generally want to do something completely different, like solving CCC or whatever. :-D
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Mike Mullikin wrote:
it ain't a muscle.
Wrong. You're just arguing semantics, but it functions just like a muscle. When you work a muscle it becomes stronger. When you work your brain it becomes quicker and clearer. When you overwork either, they both break down and become damaged. Do some research before dismissing it, or else you'll get stuck in old ways of thinking. Here's a quick Google to even get you started... http://kids.frontiersin.org/articles/20/your_brain_is_like_a_muscle/[^]
Jeremy Falcon
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
You're just arguing semantics
I'm not arguing anything... You made a statement that is totally false. The brain is an organ not a muscle. PERIOD. I agree that the brain (like muscles) needs to be "exercised" to become / stay strong but physiologically the brain is totally different than a muscle.
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. ~ George Washington
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Quite. I read is as he's brilliant, and everyone else is shit, which is why he gets paid the big bucks as a contractor, but because the shit salaried people work longer hours than he is prepared to it makes his sticking rigidly to the clock and going home look bad. He isn't bad, he's good, he's better in fact. It's so unfair. Beats fists on floor, threatens to hold breath until passes out, and so on.
Some men are born mediocre, some men achieve mediocrity, and some men have mediocrity thrust upon them.
Well...I *am* pretty awesome, but that's beside the point; thank you very much for noticing. The larger point is that expectations of estimates get created based upon unrealistic results. Billing an 8 hour day but spending "14" hours on those tasks pollutes any project plan and makes honest assessments of the effort necessary to complete work look "slow." Then you lose more time trying to explain to people why things won't just be done when they come in the next morning as if by magic. Past behavior sets future expectations and "your" lies end up directly impacting my ability to sell an honest product.
"I need build Skynet. Plz send code"
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Jeremy Falcon wrote:
You're just arguing semantics
I'm not arguing anything... You made a statement that is totally false. The brain is an organ not a muscle. PERIOD. I agree that the brain (like muscles) needs to be "exercised" to become / stay strong but physiologically the brain is totally different than a muscle.
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. ~ George Washington
Yup, you're arguing semantics. I know they technically work different, that's common sense. Seriously Mike, no duh. Any fool knows that. Guess what, circles and squares are different too. Are you trying to sound smart by finding something that silly to argue about? Everyone knows they're different. But they are both shapes they both work like shapes. Like I said, you're arguing semantics simply because I didn't use a word such as "like" in my original post when comparing the two. Do me a favor, argue about not arguing some more. That would be swell. And speaking of semantics, muscles are organs too.
Jeremy Falcon
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Yup, you're arguing semantics. I know they technically work different, that's common sense. Seriously Mike, no duh. Any fool knows that. Guess what, circles and squares are different too. Are you trying to sound smart by finding something that silly to argue about? Everyone knows they're different. But they are both shapes they both work like shapes. Like I said, you're arguing semantics simply because I didn't use a word such as "like" in my original post when comparing the two. Do me a favor, argue about not arguing some more. That would be swell. And speaking of semantics, muscles are organs too.
Jeremy Falcon
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:rolleyes: :zzz:
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. ~ George Washington
Childish.
Jeremy Falcon
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Childish.
Jeremy Falcon
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But salaried employees get bonuses, contract ones don't. The perceived effort/input/success of an individual employee can reward with significantly higher bonus than one who does the bare minimum. Contractors then moan that they don't get a bonus, well of course not, you are paid for what you do - your terms! ;P
Dave Find Me On:Web|Facebook|Twitter|LinkedIn Folding Stats: Team CodeProject
In my 30+ years of professional experience, there has been an inverse correlation between the number of overtime hours worked and the amount of my bonuses. In other words, the smarter I worked, the less overtime I worked, and my bonuses were larger.
Software Zen:
delete this; -
But the whole team can be bitten.
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Mike Mullikin wrote:
it ain't a muscle.
Wrong. You're just arguing semantics, but it functions just like a muscle. When you work a muscle it becomes stronger. When you work your brain it becomes quicker and clearer. When you overwork either, they both break down and become damaged. Do some research before dismissing it, or else you'll get stuck in old ways of thinking. Here's a quick Google to even get you started... http://kids.frontiersin.org/articles/20/your_brain_is_like_a_muscle/[^]
Jeremy Falcon
Come on - he's not arguing semantics - you said the brain is a muscle - it is not in the least bit like a muscle. The only respect it is in any way like a muscle is that its efficiency seems to be increased with increased use, up to a point. saying "the brain is a muscle" is like saying "a toenail is a human" because they both grow when healthy.
PooperPig - Coming Soon
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No.Unbillable.Work! If the customer isn't paying for it, the customer doesn't get it. Call me crazy, but I bill for every single hour I work...like I am supposed to. It infuriates me when I get into a project with salaried employees that commit "heroic effort" to making their screw ups not look like screw ups and make my 40-45 hour a week billable commitment look diminished. I had a guy tell me first thing when we got in that he was working until 2:00 this morning completing something because the customer ballooned our scope but held firm to the original deadline. What does project management tell said customer when he did this? "Ok." The real problem is that giving project management what they want just reinforces to them that it is ok to start death marches; your reward for completing one is that you get to start your next. I get paid or you do not get work done. No. Unbillable. Work. STOP IT!!!!
"I need build Skynet. Plz send code"
What's wrong here is the entire premise of hourly pay. If you are a contractor and you are charging me for every hour you work - then I want you to be working for every hour you bill. Not having a break, stretching your legs, writing a shopping list or getting on Farcebook. with a company charging a customer for a job of work, the customer isn't paying for a number of hours - they are paying for a product - and if people need to work longer hours to get the product out the door, then that's a good thing; a happy customer is a good customer. of course, this shouldn't become a constant requirement of the employer - the next project, folk should be able to chill a little, safe in the knowledge that they have learned from the bad experience, and adjusted their estimates accordingly.
Alaric_ wrote:
"heroic effort" to making their screw ups not look like screw ups
so are you saying that, when you screw up, you charge the customer for the time it takes you to fix it? So, if a plumber comes to fix a washer on your tap, then breaks a pipe and takes all day to fix it, do you just grab your cheque book and hand over a day's work for a 1/2 hour job?
PooperPig - Coming Soon
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But salaried employees get bonuses, contract ones don't. The perceived effort/input/success of an individual employee can reward with significantly higher bonus than one who does the bare minimum. Contractors then moan that they don't get a bonus, well of course not, you are paid for what you do - your terms! ;P
Dave Find Me On:Web|Facebook|Twitter|LinkedIn Folding Stats: Team CodeProject
What's a bonus? - Oh sorry just remembered, I work in the UK...
