Giving up programming
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I think I have had enough. I still enjoy programming but there seems to be very little of it around any more. I spend my time fighting with the tools rather than working on the solution. Deployment is an utter farce. Source control is hideous. Web Services are appalling hacks. Web development is a massive step backwards dragging all manner of shonky technologies and libraries together.
Maybe you just need a new job? I think that there are two types of programmers, career programmers and "I'm doing this because I love it" programmers, and there's nothing wrong with either, I would say the industry needs both. If you do it because you love it and you are working in a place designed for, and with other, career programmers, you're going to have a bad time! Equally, if it's just a career for you, and you're working other programmers who would be there even if nobody was paying them, it's going to suck. So maybe you fall into one category, and you're working at a company designed for the other category?
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I have been trying with source control and I kind of understand why some people like it. Personally I have never had any benefit from it but lots and lots and lots of trouble. Maybe because I don't understand how to use it.
You'll see the benefit when your hard drive melts down and you need to get the source of the project you're working on. An off site repository is a must.
If it's not broken, fix it until it is
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My source control is just to make a zip-backup with format: Projekt_name - Timestamp - Brief description of the higlights made that day With it I have the "Branching" and "Tagging" functionality you describe. The only one missing is "Diffing" but, since in the PLC-World it is very uncommon that more than a person works in the very same programm, I don't really need it. The only one making changes it's me.
M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
very much like my previous method which worked for me since I stopped using 12" mag tapes
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You'll see the benefit when your hard drive melts down and you need to get the source of the project you're working on. An off site repository is a must.
If it's not broken, fix it until it is
previously I backed up to zip files on the server which are subsequently backed up to tape and held off site
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previously I backed up to zip files on the server which are subsequently backed up to tape and held off site
Except that's not SOURCE CONTROL, that's BACKING up - two entirely different things. You should be doing both. First, assuming you find yourself working in a multi-developer environment... ZIP files does noting for you. How do you reliably get the other developer's changes? Second, what if you made changes all week and the customer wants you to roll back a portion of it? You can't unless you're zipping every half day. Even then, you lose half a days work. Third, like someone else mentioned, how would you branch / merge? You can't without source control. I agree that source control is tedious, kludgy, and a real mess. I STILL don't get TFS on-line, but in VS it works ok. Having said that, I would Never work without it.
If it's not broken, fix it until it is
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Except that's not SOURCE CONTROL, that's BACKING up - two entirely different things. You should be doing both. First, assuming you find yourself working in a multi-developer environment... ZIP files does noting for you. How do you reliably get the other developer's changes? Second, what if you made changes all week and the customer wants you to roll back a portion of it? You can't unless you're zipping every half day. Even then, you lose half a days work. Third, like someone else mentioned, how would you branch / merge? You can't without source control. I agree that source control is tedious, kludgy, and a real mess. I STILL don't get TFS on-line, but in VS it works ok. Having said that, I would Never work without it.
If it's not broken, fix it until it is
I know it isn't source control. I have always previously worked in a team of one - me. The customer has never asked me to roll back a portion of it as I always keep the customer in the loop with what I am doing and plan to do. I have never had a reason to branch/merge I understand why people use source control - I am venting because I am having to use it.
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I think I have had enough. I still enjoy programming but there seems to be very little of it around any more. I spend my time fighting with the tools rather than working on the solution. Deployment is an utter farce. Source control is hideous. Web Services are appalling hacks. Web development is a massive step backwards dragging all manner of shonky technologies and libraries together.
RugbyLeague wrote:
Web Services are appalling hacks. Web development is a massive step backwards dragging all manner of shonky technologies and libraries together.
Ahh, I believe I see the problem. Put the web down, and take a step back. Before the web, there were other types of things that required programming. In fact, it turns out that there still are things that require programming not related to the web; plenty of it. I would argue that you should give up hacking, and shift over to programming ;) This guy may need some help Drones[^] (Hopefully he is not planning on connecting it to the web).
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RugbyLeague wrote:
Web Services are appalling hacks. Web development is a massive step backwards dragging all manner of shonky technologies and libraries together.
Ahh, I believe I see the problem. Put the web down, and take a step back. Before the web, there were other types of things that required programming. In fact, it turns out that there still are things that require programming not related to the web; plenty of it. I would argue that you should give up hacking, and shift over to programming ;) This guy may need some help Drones[^] (Hopefully he is not planning on connecting it to the web).
The problem is I am being asked to do web stuff - not something I have ever done before. It's like wading through treacle.
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Coming from someone like you, Marc, that's high praise. Let's hope a few people listen.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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I think I have had enough. I still enjoy programming but there seems to be very little of it around any more. I spend my time fighting with the tools rather than working on the solution. Deployment is an utter farce. Source control is hideous. Web Services are appalling hacks. Web development is a massive step backwards dragging all manner of shonky technologies and libraries together.
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The problem is I am being asked to do web stuff - not something I have ever done before. It's like wading through treacle.
After translating the new word you just taught me, "treacle", to "molasses", I would agree. Ironically, I think that would be a good name for "The Web", "The Treacle", or the "Inter-treacles"... If you like programming, find a job that requires the type of programming and tools that you enjoy.
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I think I have had enough. I still enjoy programming but there seems to be very little of it around any more. I spend my time fighting with the tools rather than working on the solution. Deployment is an utter farce. Source control is hideous. Web Services are appalling hacks. Web development is a massive step backwards dragging all manner of shonky technologies and libraries together.
RugbyLeague wrote:
I think I have had enough. I still enjoy programming but there seems to be very little of it around any more. I spend my time fighting with the tools...
So, nothing is new...this is what we do right? Maybe a vacation is in order? Cheers :)
"Go forth into the source" - Neal Morse
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I have one. I built my own programming language, it's own IDE, and my own database engine and query GUI (winning several industry awards) Unfortunately it all requires very little maintenance and deployment takes seconds. So I am on other projects now - which is mostly about fighting with the tools
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Mostly in house stuff although we do have some external clients
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I think I have had enough. I still enjoy programming but there seems to be very little of it around any more. I spend my time fighting with the tools rather than working on the solution. Deployment is an utter farce. Source control is hideous. Web Services are appalling hacks. Web development is a massive step backwards dragging all manner of shonky technologies and libraries together.
I woke up and found myself in the Era of Developers fighting with tools other than working on the solution! I'd really like to know how real programming was like back then, maybe, individually, as Java Maniac, can contribute to it! :-D
<£dward>~c0d£~
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I woke up and found myself in the Era of Developers fighting with tools other than working on the solution! I'd really like to know how real programming was like back then, maybe, individually, as Java Maniac, can contribute to it! :-D
<£dward>~c0d£~
Well, I worked on COBOL/Fortran/PL1 systems on minis (TI and Prime) - there were no frameworks or anything like that on those computers - you had the language, a screen package and an ISAM package - no Google so you had the various manuals (in the case of PL/1 on the Prime we didn't have a manual so I taught myself looking at the Primos source code) - we had Emacs with Peel (emacs lisp on the prime) which was about the only difficult tool to get to grips with) Of course since then I have used C, C++, C# and various languages of my own design
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After translating the new word you just taught me, "treacle", to "molasses", I would agree. Ironically, I think that would be a good name for "The Web", "The Treacle", or the "Inter-treacles"... If you like programming, find a job that requires the type of programming and tools that you enjoy.
I started my own business to develop the tools I enjoy. Unfortunately I sold it
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I think I have had enough. I still enjoy programming but there seems to be very little of it around any more. I spend my time fighting with the tools rather than working on the solution. Deployment is an utter farce. Source control is hideous. Web Services are appalling hacks. Web development is a massive step backwards dragging all manner of shonky technologies and libraries together.
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What tools are you using? I've been using Microsoft Visual tools for 20 odd years and they've never been better. Sure, we all miss Visual SourceSafe and the web is just an abomination, but there's plenty of scope for *proper* programming still.
Regards, Rob Philpott.
Unfortunately Visual Source Safe is live and well, it just got its name changed to Vault http://sourcegear.com/[^] and i hate it. SVN and/or GIT work so much better... Rant over.
Eric
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RugbyLeague wrote:
I loathe any kind of source control
Uh oh. If you work at a large place you'll get hit over the head with the Source Control Hammer. They just tell you that you must use it. And many source control packages are confusing and annoying, until you learn the point of how they help you. But Source Control is a Real Programmer's Best Friend. Why do I say that? There are many benefits to using Source Control: Branching -- changing code without damaging your original trunk code. Then if you don't want to do the change, you just drop the branch, nothing lost. Tagging -- Oh man, there are so many companies that cannot simply check out the exact version of source that was used to build a particular version that is in production. That's because they didn't Tag. With Source Control you can Tag an exact version, then later when someone says there is a bug in version 3.01, you can go and get that exact source and attempt to reproduce the error even though you are 5 versions past it. It is amazing. Diffing -- I leave on Friday and by Monday I open source files and wonder "who's been hacking around in here?" Answer: "It was me." I can see all of that because I can do diffs on the code from so many angles that I can tell exactly which source files were changed and by who. It is fantastic. You must see the tools as something working for you and attempt to learn how they work for you to get all of this. I used to hate source control too, but if you'll see it as a programmer's helper you will see your life can be so much better. Good luck.
AMEM
To alcohol! The cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems - Homer Simpson ---- Our heads are round so our thoughts can change direction - Francis Picabia