Giving up programming
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Except that's not SOURCE CONTROL, that's BACKING up - two entirely different things. You should be doing both. First, assuming you find yourself working in a multi-developer environment... ZIP files does noting for you. How do you reliably get the other developer's changes? Second, what if you made changes all week and the customer wants you to roll back a portion of it? You can't unless you're zipping every half day. Even then, you lose half a days work. Third, like someone else mentioned, how would you branch / merge? You can't without source control. I agree that source control is tedious, kludgy, and a real mess. I STILL don't get TFS on-line, but in VS it works ok. Having said that, I would Never work without it.
If it's not broken, fix it until it is
I know it isn't source control. I have always previously worked in a team of one - me. The customer has never asked me to roll back a portion of it as I always keep the customer in the loop with what I am doing and plan to do. I have never had a reason to branch/merge I understand why people use source control - I am venting because I am having to use it.
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I think I have had enough. I still enjoy programming but there seems to be very little of it around any more. I spend my time fighting with the tools rather than working on the solution. Deployment is an utter farce. Source control is hideous. Web Services are appalling hacks. Web development is a massive step backwards dragging all manner of shonky technologies and libraries together.
RugbyLeague wrote:
Web Services are appalling hacks. Web development is a massive step backwards dragging all manner of shonky technologies and libraries together.
Ahh, I believe I see the problem. Put the web down, and take a step back. Before the web, there were other types of things that required programming. In fact, it turns out that there still are things that require programming not related to the web; plenty of it. I would argue that you should give up hacking, and shift over to programming ;) This guy may need some help Drones[^] (Hopefully he is not planning on connecting it to the web).
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RugbyLeague wrote:
Web Services are appalling hacks. Web development is a massive step backwards dragging all manner of shonky technologies and libraries together.
Ahh, I believe I see the problem. Put the web down, and take a step back. Before the web, there were other types of things that required programming. In fact, it turns out that there still are things that require programming not related to the web; plenty of it. I would argue that you should give up hacking, and shift over to programming ;) This guy may need some help Drones[^] (Hopefully he is not planning on connecting it to the web).
The problem is I am being asked to do web stuff - not something I have ever done before. It's like wading through treacle.
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Coming from someone like you, Marc, that's high praise. Let's hope a few people listen.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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I think I have had enough. I still enjoy programming but there seems to be very little of it around any more. I spend my time fighting with the tools rather than working on the solution. Deployment is an utter farce. Source control is hideous. Web Services are appalling hacks. Web development is a massive step backwards dragging all manner of shonky technologies and libraries together.
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The problem is I am being asked to do web stuff - not something I have ever done before. It's like wading through treacle.
After translating the new word you just taught me, "treacle", to "molasses", I would agree. Ironically, I think that would be a good name for "The Web", "The Treacle", or the "Inter-treacles"... If you like programming, find a job that requires the type of programming and tools that you enjoy.
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I think I have had enough. I still enjoy programming but there seems to be very little of it around any more. I spend my time fighting with the tools rather than working on the solution. Deployment is an utter farce. Source control is hideous. Web Services are appalling hacks. Web development is a massive step backwards dragging all manner of shonky technologies and libraries together.
RugbyLeague wrote:
I think I have had enough. I still enjoy programming but there seems to be very little of it around any more. I spend my time fighting with the tools...
So, nothing is new...this is what we do right? Maybe a vacation is in order? Cheers :)
"Go forth into the source" - Neal Morse
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I have one. I built my own programming language, it's own IDE, and my own database engine and query GUI (winning several industry awards) Unfortunately it all requires very little maintenance and deployment takes seconds. So I am on other projects now - which is mostly about fighting with the tools
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Mostly in house stuff although we do have some external clients
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I think I have had enough. I still enjoy programming but there seems to be very little of it around any more. I spend my time fighting with the tools rather than working on the solution. Deployment is an utter farce. Source control is hideous. Web Services are appalling hacks. Web development is a massive step backwards dragging all manner of shonky technologies and libraries together.
I woke up and found myself in the Era of Developers fighting with tools other than working on the solution! I'd really like to know how real programming was like back then, maybe, individually, as Java Maniac, can contribute to it! :-D
<£dward>~c0d£~
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I woke up and found myself in the Era of Developers fighting with tools other than working on the solution! I'd really like to know how real programming was like back then, maybe, individually, as Java Maniac, can contribute to it! :-D
<£dward>~c0d£~
Well, I worked on COBOL/Fortran/PL1 systems on minis (TI and Prime) - there were no frameworks or anything like that on those computers - you had the language, a screen package and an ISAM package - no Google so you had the various manuals (in the case of PL/1 on the Prime we didn't have a manual so I taught myself looking at the Primos source code) - we had Emacs with Peel (emacs lisp on the prime) which was about the only difficult tool to get to grips with) Of course since then I have used C, C++, C# and various languages of my own design
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After translating the new word you just taught me, "treacle", to "molasses", I would agree. Ironically, I think that would be a good name for "The Web", "The Treacle", or the "Inter-treacles"... If you like programming, find a job that requires the type of programming and tools that you enjoy.
I started my own business to develop the tools I enjoy. Unfortunately I sold it
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I think I have had enough. I still enjoy programming but there seems to be very little of it around any more. I spend my time fighting with the tools rather than working on the solution. Deployment is an utter farce. Source control is hideous. Web Services are appalling hacks. Web development is a massive step backwards dragging all manner of shonky technologies and libraries together.
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What tools are you using? I've been using Microsoft Visual tools for 20 odd years and they've never been better. Sure, we all miss Visual SourceSafe and the web is just an abomination, but there's plenty of scope for *proper* programming still.
Regards, Rob Philpott.
Unfortunately Visual Source Safe is live and well, it just got its name changed to Vault http://sourcegear.com/[^] and i hate it. SVN and/or GIT work so much better... Rant over.
Eric
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RugbyLeague wrote:
I loathe any kind of source control
Uh oh. If you work at a large place you'll get hit over the head with the Source Control Hammer. They just tell you that you must use it. And many source control packages are confusing and annoying, until you learn the point of how they help you. But Source Control is a Real Programmer's Best Friend. Why do I say that? There are many benefits to using Source Control: Branching -- changing code without damaging your original trunk code. Then if you don't want to do the change, you just drop the branch, nothing lost. Tagging -- Oh man, there are so many companies that cannot simply check out the exact version of source that was used to build a particular version that is in production. That's because they didn't Tag. With Source Control you can Tag an exact version, then later when someone says there is a bug in version 3.01, you can go and get that exact source and attempt to reproduce the error even though you are 5 versions past it. It is amazing. Diffing -- I leave on Friday and by Monday I open source files and wonder "who's been hacking around in here?" Answer: "It was me." I can see all of that because I can do diffs on the code from so many angles that I can tell exactly which source files were changed and by who. It is fantastic. You must see the tools as something working for you and attempt to learn how they work for you to get all of this. I used to hate source control too, but if you'll see it as a programmer's helper you will see your life can be so much better. Good luck.
AMEM
To alcohol! The cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems - Homer Simpson ---- Our heads are round so our thoughts can change direction - Francis Picabia
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I know it isn't source control. I have always previously worked in a team of one - me. The customer has never asked me to roll back a portion of it as I always keep the customer in the loop with what I am doing and plan to do. I have never had a reason to branch/merge I understand why people use source control - I am venting because I am having to use it.
RugbyLeague wrote:
I am venting because I am having to use it.
Believe me, the day will come that you will say: "Thank God they made me use it". Oh, and try to compile and commit the changes every day. The benefit may become more palpable. Plus, there are source controls that are easier and more intuitive to work than others. Some are a real breeze to work with. Which one are you using?
To alcohol! The cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems - Homer Simpson ---- Our heads are round so our thoughts can change direction - Francis Picabia
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I have to use TFS Previously I would just zip up my dev folder and park it in a rolling folder in the server so it would be backed up. If I found myself going down the wrong path I would just restore the project from the zip file. Live releases would get their own backed up zip file. Easy peasy, lemon squeezy
How can this be easier than checking in and checking out with very few clicks, a unified and descriptive history?
To alcohol! The cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems - Homer Simpson ---- Our heads are round so our thoughts can change direction - Francis Picabia
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I think I have had enough. I still enjoy programming but there seems to be very little of it around any more. I spend my time fighting with the tools rather than working on the solution. Deployment is an utter farce. Source control is hideous. Web Services are appalling hacks. Web development is a massive step backwards dragging all manner of shonky technologies and libraries together.
RugbyLeague wrote:
I think I have had enough. I still enjoy programming but there seems to be very little of it around any more. I spend my time fighting with the tools rather than working on the solution.
Deployment is an utter farce. Source control is hideous. Web Services are appalling hacks. Web development is a massive step backwards dragging all manner of shonky technologies and libraries together.Rugby, you're not alone here. The programming field has gotten very confusing and is, in many ways, a pain-in-the-ass. The gig I'm on ought to last another 5 or so years. (I'm the SME for a product that's being phased out). I've been at this for nearly 40 years now. (I'm 56). I have developed my own technology for developing products for Windows desktop, mainly. (Yeah I can do a little web development, but nothing approaching what I can do on the desktop). It's based around the 2008 version of Visual Studio and a few other tools. Like you, I'm sick of fiddling with the tools and all the attendant upgrades, etc. What I have in my toolbox is it, as far as I'm concerned. When they stop working (unlikely, Microsoft desktop ain't going anywhere) then I'll just go drive a bus or work in my wood shop. I still love programming: I write some applications for my own use (I've developed a nice budgeting system and some other things) and I am automating the co-op farm we're involved in (in exchange for our share). I do have a couple other "products" under development but whether I ever market and sell them or not ... who knows? Having fun doing that. As a "career", though, I really think I'm through with it. I've discovered life recently. Even bought a motorcycle which I've wanted to do for years and am spending more and more time in my woodworking shop. We've paid off everything except the house and we're working on that. I think there's life after programming, though as I said, I still love doing it but in a more relaxed way when I feel like it. -CB
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I know it isn't source control. I have always previously worked in a team of one - me. The customer has never asked me to roll back a portion of it as I always keep the customer in the loop with what I am doing and plan to do. I have never had a reason to branch/merge I understand why people use source control - I am venting because I am having to use it.
Even when I worked in a team of one I found source control essential. It is great when you realise you screwed something up six versions ago and you can go back and see exactly what changes you made. Yes, I resisted at first. My boss wanted me to use Bazaar. Despite what others may say, I like subversion and I use it for everything. Backups? Easy. Just back up tthe respository.
I may not last forever but the mess I leave behind certainly will.
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RugbyLeague wrote:
I think I have had enough. I still enjoy programming but there seems to be very little of it around any more. I spend my time fighting with the tools rather than working on the solution.
Deployment is an utter farce. Source control is hideous. Web Services are appalling hacks. Web development is a massive step backwards dragging all manner of shonky technologies and libraries together.Rugby, you're not alone here. The programming field has gotten very confusing and is, in many ways, a pain-in-the-ass. The gig I'm on ought to last another 5 or so years. (I'm the SME for a product that's being phased out). I've been at this for nearly 40 years now. (I'm 56). I have developed my own technology for developing products for Windows desktop, mainly. (Yeah I can do a little web development, but nothing approaching what I can do on the desktop). It's based around the 2008 version of Visual Studio and a few other tools. Like you, I'm sick of fiddling with the tools and all the attendant upgrades, etc. What I have in my toolbox is it, as far as I'm concerned. When they stop working (unlikely, Microsoft desktop ain't going anywhere) then I'll just go drive a bus or work in my wood shop. I still love programming: I write some applications for my own use (I've developed a nice budgeting system and some other things) and I am automating the co-op farm we're involved in (in exchange for our share). I do have a couple other "products" under development but whether I ever market and sell them or not ... who knows? Having fun doing that. As a "career", though, I really think I'm through with it. I've discovered life recently. Even bought a motorcycle which I've wanted to do for years and am spending more and more time in my woodworking shop. We've paid off everything except the house and we're working on that. I think there's life after programming, though as I said, I still love doing it but in a more relaxed way when I feel like it. -CB
Sounds like you have it pretty much sorted. My wife is talking about us buying a small holding and running a campsite - we are vintage VW bus owners - so that would be a good option. I will still program, I enjoy programming language design and compiler writing so would keep my eye in with that