Self-directed learning
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I've lurked here from time to time, making off-the-wall comments from time to time. Now, with all my great contributions :) accredited, I'm going to ask for some opinion on a matter near and dear to me. My career was mainly in consulting and HQ Information Systems. My undergraduate is in Accounting and Info Systems (not comp sci, sorry), so Things got rough personally and I ended up in a Help Desk. (Not looking for sympathy, just explaining the situation.) In digging my way back out of a hole of my own making I started defining and taking on projects to automate some of the brain- and time-killing work people do to combine this report and that to make Excel workbooks. From there I started to learn VBA (I know, it's not as good as any other language a real programmer would use!) on my own through books, experimentation, some on-line fora, and writing a blog (with very few views...and I'm not pushing that here) mainly because I realized long ago that writing is a means to make certain I know what I think I learned. I've got no training budget, and corporations don't spend money training someone who is (a) working with non-mainstream technology and (b) past the age of 50. Yes, I'll get to the question(s)! Recently I started considering branching out. I figured I could take what I know about programming in a MS spreadsheet world and leverage that to Google Drive and OpenOffice, mainly to start learning more mainstream languages, e.g. Python and Javascript. Of course, I am interested in your opinions as to which language(s) to go after to build more knowledge and understanding, whether you think this is a fool's errand, etc etc. I am most interested in how you've gone about being self-educated in different languages and technologies. Thoughts?
cat fud heer
Hello: I would also consider myself one of the more senior developers (50+). Most of the work we have done over the last 15 years or so was in VB6, but a few years ago we knew the future was somewhat limited. So I started to learn C#, that and some ASP.NET, Javascript etc. and we are now producing some interesting web sites, web applications and of course more desktop software. I can't say the learning curve has been easy, but we seem to be making pretty good progress now and it is pretty nice to have skills that are a little more "current" now. It is also fun when you push yourself out of the comfort zone, always lots to learn! So I would suggest C# too.... good luck. Dave
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OriginalGriff wrote:
What I'm talking about is things like this:
If a = b Then
DoSomething()
End IfInstead of
if (a == b) DoSomething();
Ah, but this is valid in VBA (can't speak for VB with the A)
If a= b then DoSomething()
The "Then" is necessary but the End If only when more than one command follows. I find it neither better nor worse that using "{}" to establish the boundaries of the If (or Else) scoped commands. Just a different way of saying the same thing. Me, I tend to use the End If whether there is one command or multiple. It makes it easier for me to find where I have left one out when the compiler complains.
OriginalGriff wrote:
Let's just say it's a lot easier to write total cr@p in VB than it is in C# and get it through the compiler to bite you at run time! :laugh:
That reminds me of a study around the time when PCs and Apples were first around. The study claimed the papers written on the PCs were of higher quality supposedly because the students with the Apples had less experience with working through detailed issues. ...and something else, "We learn from our mistakes then make bigger and better ones." I'm convinced there is no such thing as and idiot-proof language. There are so many human and social factors that go into developing an application of any size, discipline is always the first defense against nonsense. As to the need for having "==" (or "===" as in java script) as a comparator, I'm not sold on it. Not opposed, just not convinced and don't care enough one way or another to make a case for or against. Like I said before, it's all in the practicality to me: what does the compiler expect.
cat fud heer
As far as "=" vs "==" goes, I made that mistake once in C:
if (x = 3)
{
...And it took forever to work out what the problem was, so it's not one I'll make again! In C#, that won't compile... :laugh:
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
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First, kudos for continuing to learn! That's more than most people do to begin with. Second, don't minimize anything you learn, regardless of language, the concepts are valuable. While it may be true that most developers don't use VBA, you are programming. Also, I have met many people that did not study CS in college and are great developers. One guy had a law degree. There are so many languages, infinite ways to solve problems, the choices are dizzying. I think the first thing I think you should do before you think about technologies, is decide what you want to do with your skills. If you want to continue to do tasks that are geared towards automating processes, python would be a good way to go. It is a general purpose scripting language that is widely available on all types of systems. If you are interested in web technologies, JavaScript would be a better choice. If you want to learn more general purpose programming, you can download Visual Studio Express for free from Microsoft and start learning VB.Net or C#. C# being the more valuable of the skills. Once you decide what you want to do, and choose a language based on that domain, get a book to help guide you. You don't even need to spend money, you can get many great books at the library. There's lots of stuff on the web, unfortunately you need to know what you are looking for to find it most of the time. Like others have said, there are so many frameworks, and complicated technologies. Try to focus on just learning like you have been. Solve small problems. Even make small personal utilities for yourself, something that will keep your interest. I have stayed with C++ my entire career, with the need to familiarize with JAVA, C#, Python, JavaScript or other technologies for a short period of time. I have remained primarily a general purpose developer with solid software architecture skills. Taking the stance that if a path leads me in a direction that I need to learn a new technology, that is when I pick it up. Frameworks and libraries come and go as time passes. The languages for the most part is what stays the same. Programming itself, is similar no matter what language you choose. You break bigger problems into smaller problems until they can be solved with the tool you are using. Focus on improving your problem solving skills. Once you are proficient with one language, it is much easier to pick up others. The fool's errand would be to stop learning.
Paul, thanks for the reply. There's a lot in there and all of it appreciated. To be honest, I'm a bit overwhelmed (in a great way) with the number of responses, as well as their depths of knowledge and humanity. At this point of the day I'm thinking there is no single language for me to hit in the short term, so I'm thinking of a short-list of 3 to 5, and probably 3 is the max. A lot of that will be driven by whether I can find some project that uses one or more of those languages, then they will (of course) come to the front burner. Chickens, eggs; languages, projects.
cat fud heer
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Well, I am a pupil with the age of 16 and never learned any serious programming in school. I thaught myself (via internet and some books) six languages so far (VB.NET, C#, C, C++, some Python and Java). Unfortunatly, my grades in subjects such as german and english decreased because of that hobby. Nowadays, however, I do all my school work and only spend a little of my free-time with programming. I have no idea what I should study after school to be honest... If I were you, I would actually focus on .NET languages because the .NET framework will more or less become cross-platform over the next years. But that's all I can tell you because I am, as far as I know, one of the youngest here on CodeProject :)
Niquo, thanks for the reply. I'm probably at the other end of the age spectrum here, probably even older than your parents. It's good to see the insights of someone who is looking at the future of all this. They are much appreciated. Take care. Study Hard! (Did that sound parental enough? :-D :) )
cat fud heer
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I've lurked here from time to time, making off-the-wall comments from time to time. Now, with all my great contributions :) accredited, I'm going to ask for some opinion on a matter near and dear to me. My career was mainly in consulting and HQ Information Systems. My undergraduate is in Accounting and Info Systems (not comp sci, sorry), so Things got rough personally and I ended up in a Help Desk. (Not looking for sympathy, just explaining the situation.) In digging my way back out of a hole of my own making I started defining and taking on projects to automate some of the brain- and time-killing work people do to combine this report and that to make Excel workbooks. From there I started to learn VBA (I know, it's not as good as any other language a real programmer would use!) on my own through books, experimentation, some on-line fora, and writing a blog (with very few views...and I'm not pushing that here) mainly because I realized long ago that writing is a means to make certain I know what I think I learned. I've got no training budget, and corporations don't spend money training someone who is (a) working with non-mainstream technology and (b) past the age of 50. Yes, I'll get to the question(s)! Recently I started considering branching out. I figured I could take what I know about programming in a MS spreadsheet world and leverage that to Google Drive and OpenOffice, mainly to start learning more mainstream languages, e.g. Python and Javascript. Of course, I am interested in your opinions as to which language(s) to go after to build more knowledge and understanding, whether you think this is a fool's errand, etc etc. I am most interested in how you've gone about being self-educated in different languages and technologies. Thoughts?
cat fud heer
BiggerDon, Later in the post, you mention knowing COBOL. Quite frankly I still see jobs posted for COBOL, have you looked... Still interested in that? Others have said this... It is no longer the language... It is the frameworks that consume you, and those depend on what problem you are solving. I am going through CodeSchool personally because I realized I just "picked up JavaScript", and never studied it. I am flying through the material AND Learning a few new things. I also want to recommend it to some younglings in the neighborhood who are entering High School and need some guidance. After a few badges I say it works pretty well. Do some of the free stuff see how it fits you. Again, I would look to get back into ANY programming you can find. That help desk experience is not helping. Finally, I am 48... I am feeling like 55 might be the END of my core programming, and I will be simply managing the smart kids (right now only 10-15% of my time is truly ME doing the programming. I do more reviews and designs)... So, the point is that you have to consider your quality of life as well. Do you want the pressures that come with programming these days? HTH, Kirk Out!
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BiggerDon wrote:
From there I started to learn VBA (I know, it's not as good as any other language a real programmer would use!)
A programming language is nothing more than a tool used to solve a problem. If your problem is solved, you have nothing to "apologize" for.
BiggerDon wrote:
Of course, I am interested in your opinions as to which language(s) to go after to build more knowledge and understanding, whether you think this is a fool's errand, etc etc.
I am most interested in how you've gone about being self-educated in different languages and technologies.I personally think that learning a computer language without first learning programming principles, methodologies, and problem solving, is taking a step in the wrong direction (I base this opinion on many years of watching the types of questions asked here at CP). Now if you already have these skills, then learning a computer language is trivial. While their syntax is different, they all have a common goal, and switching between a handful of them should not be a big deal. I've seen way too many instances where a person will be presented with a problem, and that person wants to immediately run to the keyboard and start banging out code (using their favorite language). The issue arises when they do not have access to that language and thus cannot think their way through the problem.
"One man's wage rise is another man's price increase." - Harold Wilson
"Fireproof doesn't mean the fire will never come. It means when the fire comes that you will be able to withstand it." - Michael Simmons
"You can easily judge the character of a man by how he treats those who can do nothing for him." - James D. Miles
Thanks, David. I couldn't agree more with your post. As to having the basics, I think I'm there since I cringe at the words "Go To" and still scribble out structure diagrams when I am building something. :-D Methodologies? Does being on the methodology teams for a major corp and Big 7-6-5-4-3 firm count. One of the reasons I'm re-learning to program is my work took me up the process (lots of time in business systems/process analysis) and to areas like data center consolidation and production change management that I had never considered when I was in application development, way back when.
cat fud heer
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I've lurked here from time to time, making off-the-wall comments from time to time. Now, with all my great contributions :) accredited, I'm going to ask for some opinion on a matter near and dear to me. My career was mainly in consulting and HQ Information Systems. My undergraduate is in Accounting and Info Systems (not comp sci, sorry), so Things got rough personally and I ended up in a Help Desk. (Not looking for sympathy, just explaining the situation.) In digging my way back out of a hole of my own making I started defining and taking on projects to automate some of the brain- and time-killing work people do to combine this report and that to make Excel workbooks. From there I started to learn VBA (I know, it's not as good as any other language a real programmer would use!) on my own through books, experimentation, some on-line fora, and writing a blog (with very few views...and I'm not pushing that here) mainly because I realized long ago that writing is a means to make certain I know what I think I learned. I've got no training budget, and corporations don't spend money training someone who is (a) working with non-mainstream technology and (b) past the age of 50. Yes, I'll get to the question(s)! Recently I started considering branching out. I figured I could take what I know about programming in a MS spreadsheet world and leverage that to Google Drive and OpenOffice, mainly to start learning more mainstream languages, e.g. Python and Javascript. Of course, I am interested in your opinions as to which language(s) to go after to build more knowledge and understanding, whether you think this is a fool's errand, etc etc. I am most interested in how you've gone about being self-educated in different languages and technologies. Thoughts?
cat fud heer
There are a wealth of online courses for learning web development, both free and paid. I'd definitely recommend you get really comfortable with HTML and some CSS, and then start learning Javascript. Javascript is the language of web browsers (and now many servers, too), so its one of the most pervasive languages around, and its works on every platform (Windows, Apple, Linux, iOS, Android, etc. etc. etc.). My personal favorites are:
Free* Code Academy
- Thinkful Online Learning
- General Assembly Dash
Paid* Treehouse (beginner friendly) - Code School (geared towards folks familiar with basic concepts)
Anyways, despite the cost - the paid sites are well worth the money for the advanced concepts and the depth of learning they provide, and are a huge factor in why I'm a professional web developer today (despite having a degree in Music, :laugh: ). In fact, after getting hired at my current company, I convinced them to invest in Code School for our team and the other devs love it! (We just renewed for another year). Anyways, best of luck to you in your search for greener pastures!
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BiggerDon wrote:
My only question (for myself, not you) is "What would I do with it?"
Well, I'll answer anyways! I'm looking for people wanting to contribute to HOPE - developer roadmap[^] and would be more than happy to pick some small projects and offer mentoring services. Marc
Imperative to Functional Programming Succinctly Higher Order Programming
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BiggerDon wrote:
What would I do with it?"
Pretty much almost everything. And now with the great [Visual Studio Community Edition](http://www.visualstudio.com/en-us/downloads/ download-visual-studio-vs#d-community)[](http://www.visualstudio.com/en-us/downloads/ download-visual-studio-vs#d-community)[^], you have the best IDE, full featured, for free. And you can worry about the many frameworks that supports C#, to name a few: - Web Development: ASP.net (WebForms, MVC, Web API, etc) - Desktop Development: Console, Windows Forms, WPF - Middle-ware Services: Web Services and Windows Services through WCF - Embedded Systems and IOT (Internet Of Things): .Net MicroFramework All of this with a great community support.
To alcohol! The cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems - Homer Simpson ---- Our heads are round so our thoughts can change direction - Francis Picabia
Thanks, Fabio. I was thinking more in line with "What problems are nearby that I will solve with that?" As I said, that was more a question for me than anyone else. I see your answer as "Where can I find opportunities to use this?" What you've given me is food for thought on my question. Also, thanks for the link to Visual Studio Community Edition. I've been stumped in the past with "Ok, that's nice, now where do I get my hands on the environment?"
cat fud heer
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I've lurked here from time to time, making off-the-wall comments from time to time. Now, with all my great contributions :) accredited, I'm going to ask for some opinion on a matter near and dear to me. My career was mainly in consulting and HQ Information Systems. My undergraduate is in Accounting and Info Systems (not comp sci, sorry), so Things got rough personally and I ended up in a Help Desk. (Not looking for sympathy, just explaining the situation.) In digging my way back out of a hole of my own making I started defining and taking on projects to automate some of the brain- and time-killing work people do to combine this report and that to make Excel workbooks. From there I started to learn VBA (I know, it's not as good as any other language a real programmer would use!) on my own through books, experimentation, some on-line fora, and writing a blog (with very few views...and I'm not pushing that here) mainly because I realized long ago that writing is a means to make certain I know what I think I learned. I've got no training budget, and corporations don't spend money training someone who is (a) working with non-mainstream technology and (b) past the age of 50. Yes, I'll get to the question(s)! Recently I started considering branching out. I figured I could take what I know about programming in a MS spreadsheet world and leverage that to Google Drive and OpenOffice, mainly to start learning more mainstream languages, e.g. Python and Javascript. Of course, I am interested in your opinions as to which language(s) to go after to build more knowledge and understanding, whether you think this is a fool's errand, etc etc. I am most interested in how you've gone about being self-educated in different languages and technologies. Thoughts?
cat fud heer
I realize you have "no budget", but if you can crack open the wallet a little try pluralsight[^]. The personal plan costs $29 a month (pricing[^]).
- great coders make code look easy - When humans are doing things computers could be doing instead, the computers get together late at night and laugh at us. - ¿Neal Ford?
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Oh wow, didn't know VBA could do that. My reply was more aimed at griff than you - and he should immediately know what I mean. I was reserving a longer and better reply directly to you for later, when I had thinking time :) Nothing wrong with learning Java if your employer uses it. It's a solid language for loads of good OO principles, but just a little behind.
No object is so beautiful that, under certain conditions, it will not look ugly. - Oscar Wilde
Brady Kelly wrote:
Oh wow, didn't know VBA could do that.
I know something someone else at CP doesn't! Whoa! Another sign of the impending apocalypse! ;)
Brady Kelly wrote:
I was reserving a longer and better reply directly to you for later, when I had thinking time :)
You were? Does that mean that since I piped in I've ruined it all? :-D
cat fud heer
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Thanks, Fabio. I was thinking more in line with "What problems are nearby that I will solve with that?" As I said, that was more a question for me than anyone else. I see your answer as "Where can I find opportunities to use this?" What you've given me is food for thought on my question. Also, thanks for the link to Visual Studio Community Edition. I've been stumped in the past with "Ok, that's nice, now where do I get my hands on the environment?"
cat fud heer
I'm glado to help. I believe you will be pleasantly surprised on the power and ease of use of Visual Studio :)
To alcohol! The cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems - Homer Simpson ---- Our heads are round so our thoughts can change direction - Francis Picabia
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Paul, thanks for the reply. There's a lot in there and all of it appreciated. To be honest, I'm a bit overwhelmed (in a great way) with the number of responses, as well as their depths of knowledge and humanity. At this point of the day I'm thinking there is no single language for me to hit in the short term, so I'm thinking of a short-list of 3 to 5, and probably 3 is the max. A lot of that will be driven by whether I can find some project that uses one or more of those languages, then they will (of course) come to the front burner. Chickens, eggs; languages, projects.
cat fud heer
If you can stick with one long enough to become proficient, I think that will help you the most. Every language has a basic set of constructs, and you can combine those to create programs with linearly defined logic. That is a single large function that handles everything in sequence of commands and loops. But every language has its nuance for its own way to do things better. you won't pick up those nuances and the best practices of the language if you are splitting your time learning many at once. If I were learning new skills today, I would try to only focus on one, unless I was test driving them to evaluate which one I want to learn deeper. I realize everyone learns differently, so I acknowledge that your planned direction may work best for you. Best if luck.
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Ten years ago I was made redundant. I self-studied by buying an old copy of VS 97 Enterprise. Then I shopped on ebay for an old box that I could put NT4 on. Thus I had two boxes, the vintage one with all the visual studio boondoggles from 1997, and my main one with the Express versions of vs 2005, for learning C#, VB.NET, ASP.NET and ADO.NET. Then I started working through second hand books. What did 97 teach me? COM, MFC, Win32, VB5 OOP(almost the same as VB6, which still sells at a huge premium),Databases, simple Access, SQL Server, client-server, Crystal Reports. I also picked up a third box to play with Linux. Of course with all these boxes I needed networking and pipes. To learn remote sql server programming for example. Within 2 years(I had commercial vb and C already), I was being flown out to Amsterdam and Belfast for interviews Meaning, you start small, but growth doesn't have to cost the Earth. And Dan Appleman(the software author and entrepreneur), replies to requests for help with free copies of his old stuff and friendly encouragement. :)
Simon, Thanks. I'm not much of a server/com guy. I can set up a home network and share printers, but that's about it. I see bigger lessons there, i.e. learn what you need and try to have multiple platforms. Since I had been doing most of my work in MS-Office VBA I've done what I can there. I own one Win8 machine with Office 2013 and another with WinXP/2007. By luck, the laptop my employer provides has Win7/2010. My thought when picking up the Win8 machine last month was that gives me 3 environments for testing, even being a lone wolf type.
cat fud heer
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I prefer self directed learning personally. If you have the free time for it s course will be great but generally you only learn enough to be dangerous. Here is what I tend to do 1. Read enough to install the language and any IDE there is. THis can take a while or may be impossible ( I failed to get julia installed on REDHAT at work, but it went like a dream on my MacbookPro and works well in Windows on my work box. 2. Then write a hello world program. I start with hello world then start working out how to import modules from other files so I know I can build libraries if I wish 3. Now pick a project: I often repeat something I did in a language I know, for example a prime number sieve is relatively simple and you can benchmark it against other languages. Alternatively something I read might gove me an idea but most of those ideas require a lot of time and effort and get frustrating when leanring a new language 4. If no project comes to mind try somewhere like Project Euler or just google on "Undergraduate computer science projects" 5. As to the two languages you mention: Download AptanaStudio 3 for JAvascripe. I think it also includes PYDEV, but I always install Pydev for Eclipse. The IDE is a little temperamental and sometimes it is easier to run javascript externally. Use Firefox and install developer tools 6. If you are doing this privately be ready for lots of WTF moment and a lot of googling and going the wrong direction.
Thanks, aayawa! I've been through plenty of hair-pulling and googling for answers. I remember one function that would crash Excel at its exit. It took me two full days to find out what I did wrong on that one! As to re-building something in the new language, that was in my thoughts, too. Those functions I developed in VBA should mostly be useful in Google Drive and OpenOffice, or so I would think. It becomes a matter of translating the basic syntax/flow then figuring out how the different object models are accessed and exploited, or so I hope. My next step (assuming the Google Drive/OpenOffice) is that I had started a call/visitor log project for someone using VBA/Excel. I might pull that from the archives, take it to a point, then re-do it in the other environments/languages. And thanks for the leads on the IDEs. Much appreciated.
cat fud heer
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BiggerDon wrote:
I am most interested in how you've gone about being self-educated in different languages and technologies.
Books, books and then, more books. At the age of 15 I had a thousand page VB 5 teach yourself book sitting on my lap, while I was in front of my computer trying out what the book was teaching. Of course, nowadays a kindle won't feel so heavy and cumbersome. This may take a little while of your time, but it is a lot of fun and you can learn things the right way. And the best part is, it is cheap. Plus you can learn on your own pace. It worked very well for me to the point that I started my career before getting to college.
To alcohol! The cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems - Homer Simpson ---- Our heads are round so our thoughts can change direction - Francis Picabia
Yep. I'm a book guy. I have books on Excel VBA for 2007, 2010 and 2013. My complaint is if I buy a second (or third) book on the same language the first several hundred pages are redundant, just covering the same syntax as before. I bought different authors each time, hoping for a new twist.
Fabio Franco wrote:
At the age of 15 I had a thousand page VB 5 teach yourself book sitting on my lap
At age 17, two guys in my HS physics class brought in calculators that could do addition, subtraction, multiplication and division. They were $100, at that time real money. At 28, a year after the Commodore 64 came on the market, I took my first programming class. We used punch cards. Not denigrating your comment, just providing context.
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A great place to start learning almost any language is codecademy It's free and covers a lot of material in a step by step manner. With everything you learn it tests your knowledge before moving on to the next subject. It won't teach you everything but it does give you that guided start which is the hardest part. Codecademy will also show you where to find good reference material to continue expanding your knowledge of a particular subject.
Twallick, thanks for the reply. I've already completed one of codecademy's tutorials. It seems thorough enough, for the introduction I needed to Javascript. Your recommendation is much appreciated. I would hate to spend more time on tutorials when theirs a better alternative.
cat fud heer
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My primary way of learning technology is to use youtube coding tutorials. I ALWAYS start with youtube when learning a new technology and branch out to written tutorials from there. If you want to learn c# this is one of the BEST video tutorial playlists i have found https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLAC325451207E3105[^]
Eric
Eric, thanks for the tip. I've never tried using YouTube tutorials. I will now. That link is bookmarked for when I have the IDE installed and can turn up the sound. (Gawd! I hate cube world!) Whoever has done these should be commended because they've laid this out like a book, meaning I can go to different chapters when I want. (I'm not much of a YouTuber so I'm not certain where the bar is for this sort of thing.
cat fud heer
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Hello: I would also consider myself one of the more senior developers (50+). Most of the work we have done over the last 15 years or so was in VB6, but a few years ago we knew the future was somewhat limited. So I started to learn C#, that and some ASP.NET, Javascript etc. and we are now producing some interesting web sites, web applications and of course more desktop software. I can't say the learning curve has been easy, but we seem to be making pretty good progress now and it is pretty nice to have skills that are a little more "current" now. It is also fun when you push yourself out of the comfort zone, always lots to learn! So I would suggest C# too.... good luck. Dave
Thanks Dave!
Spart123 wrote:
I would also consider myself one of the more senior developers (50+).
It's nice to know that another person younger than I am .... :laugh: Never mind! I expect just about everyone on this site to be younger than I am. It's interesting to read that someone in his teens and someone in his 50's have similar recommendations (c#) even with different perspectives, i.e. you mentioned "more current" and he mentioned the future. I have the feeling that I should be making a list of all the recommendations, then using that as a check list moving forward. Hmmmm...something else on that to-do list.
cat fud heer
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As far as "=" vs "==" goes, I made that mistake once in C:
if (x = 3)
{
...And it took forever to work out what the problem was, so it's not one I'll make again! In C#, that won't compile... :laugh:
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
