Silly question, if Iraq is disarmed why are they firing Scuds?
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He had 4 months to produce clear and serious results that he was completely disarming. Instead he went about it in a piecemeal sort of way that was not at all serious or clear. Nobody wants war and I really don't appreciate it when you talk like that about those of us who support this. I sincerely prayed before this war started that it could be avoided, but it was not.
Jason Henderson
"You must be the change you wish to see in the world." - GandhiJason Henderson wrote: Nobody wants war come again? if "nobody wants war", how do we end up having wars? Jason Henderson wrote: I sincerely prayed before this war started that it could be avoided and yet you've been one of the most vocal pro-war voices in this forum the whole time. -c
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That's not why we disagree with the US government that we have to threat or punish the US citizens! We aren't so childish! ;) BTW, we don't export fries. TBelgium does :)
Angels banished from heaven have no choice but to become demons Cowboy Bebop
KaЯl wrote: BTW, we don't export fries. TBelgium does Exactly! You guys export Pommes Frites. :-D -- Shine, enlighten me - shine Shine, awaken me - shine Shine for all your suffering - shine
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They may have more experience you may think. Have you forgotten all the volunteers from all muslim countries who fought as mujahidin in afghanistan? They defeated the russians, and had training camps for years under the Taliban regim.
Angels banished from heaven have no choice but to become demons Cowboy Bebop
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Chris Losinger wrote: whatever. you got your f***ing war. enjoy it while you can You miss the point, completely. I agree that war sucks, but I also believe that SH is a real threat to the US. I don't believe in waiting until we are kicked in the teeth, when you see someone who is a true threat you need to stop him. I don't enjoy war, I don't think its amusing, I have a pretty personal perspective about what it really means. The question is, will the world be a better place when the man is gone, and will it be worth the cost. In my opinion it will be better, and it is. Uptight Ex-Military Republican married to a Commie Lib - How weird is that?
Doug Goulden wrote: I don't believe in waiting until we are kicked in the teeth, when you see someone who is a true threat you need to stop him. i agree. Doug Goulden wrote: SH is a real threat to the US i disagree. Doug Goulden wrote: The question is, will the world be a better place when the man is gone, and will it be worth the cost. In my opinion it will be better, and it i maybe, maybe not. it's a hell of a chance to take, when you consider who's been attacking the US for the past 10 years: Arabs fed up with US involvement in the mid-east. -c
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Jason Henderson wrote: Nobody wants war come again? if "nobody wants war", how do we end up having wars? Jason Henderson wrote: I sincerely prayed before this war started that it could be avoided and yet you've been one of the most vocal pro-war voices in this forum the whole time. -c
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Chris Losinger wrote: if "nobody wants war", how do we end up having wars? I must clarify, nobody here. Chris Losinger wrote: and yet you've been one of the most vocal pro-war voices in this forum the whole time. pro-war? It just seemed to me that war was the only option. Saddam was not cooperating. If Saddam would have surrendered himself, this would be over by now.
Jason Henderson
"You must be the change you wish to see in the world." - Gandhi -
KaЯl wrote: BTW, we don't export fries. TBelgium does Exactly! You guys export Pommes Frites. :-D -- Shine, enlighten me - shine Shine, awaken me - shine Shine for all your suffering - shine
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Are these missiles Scud or Al-Samud-2? I would wait for several days to have a more reliable answer, I don't trust the media on the Opening Day. Scuds are these missiles derived from the German V2 of 1944, right?
Angels banished from heaven have no choice but to become demons Cowboy Bebop
KaЯl wrote: Scuds are these missiles derived from the German V2 of 1944, right? Wasn't this the way the USA started their space program? Viva Von Braun!
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brianwelsch wrote: If everyone was so against this, why didn't they take more drastic measures to stop the US Could France do more?! :wtf::rolleyes::-D?
Angels banished from heaven have no choice but to become demons Cowboy Bebop
KaЯl wrote: Could France do more?! Yes. France could have proposed an honest approach that had repercussions if not followed through on. Point in fact, well I'll correct, my opinion is that France is against anything that requires anything with consequences. I don't know if you have children or not but if you do, try telling them to do something they don't want to do or telling them not to do something they want to do. If disobedience doesn't have a consequence, you ultimately become not a parent but a joke. In my opinion, and that is all any of us have here, France didn't care: what Iraq has, what Iraq intends or intended to do with it. Still opinion, France was more interested in preserving a friendship with Iraq than it was in stepping up to it's Security Council role. France and the rest of the council ( US included ) slept while hundreds of thousands of Africans have been slaughtered. Africa, again - my opinion, is France's sphere of influence and they should have initiated the action via the Security Council. Even in Europe, France's back yard, the US had to be the one to push for action --> Serbia. The end result, by the way, of not countering with a proposal that had any force to back it up is the demise of the one instituition ( UN Security Council ) that gave France a world stage. Mike
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Yes. With a big steak and a good red wine :megadrool:
Angels banished from heaven have no choice but to become demons Cowboy Bebop
That's it! On the 25th when I get my salary, I'm going to buy a big juicy ox filet. I'm not sure if I want pommes frites (btw, in Sweden we use the french words :)) with it though. I don't know the english translation for it, but it's kind of like pommes frites. Basically it's fried potatos, but they're thicker and not square. Imagine cutting up a potato in four parts. And maybe I'll buy myself some wine too. Do you have any wine recommendations? -- Shine, enlighten me - shine Shine, awaken me - shine Shine for all your suffering - shine
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I read an article (in the washington post?) reporting saudis crossed the frontier to fight the US. It wasn't confirmed by saudis authorities.
Angels banished from heaven have no choice but to become demons Cowboy Bebop
KaЯl wrote: saudis crossed the frontier to fight the US Who? Al-Qaeda folks? ;) It is no surprise, really. Saudis are no longer US buddies. That may be one of the reasons why Iraq is now being invaded. The US needs a friend there...
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Chris Losinger wrote: if "nobody wants war", how do we end up having wars? I must clarify, nobody here. Chris Losinger wrote: and yet you've been one of the most vocal pro-war voices in this forum the whole time. pro-war? It just seemed to me that war was the only option. Saddam was not cooperating. If Saddam would have surrendered himself, this would be over by now.
Jason Henderson
"You must be the change you wish to see in the world." - GandhiJason Henderson wrote: Saddam was not cooperating. If Saddam would have surrendered himself, this would be over by now. exactly. because it's really about regime change, not WMDs. i'm glad you see it too. -c
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Doug Goulden wrote: I don't believe in waiting until we are kicked in the teeth, when you see someone who is a true threat you need to stop him. i agree. Doug Goulden wrote: SH is a real threat to the US i disagree. Doug Goulden wrote: The question is, will the world be a better place when the man is gone, and will it be worth the cost. In my opinion it will be better, and it i maybe, maybe not. it's a hell of a chance to take, when you consider who's been attacking the US for the past 10 years: Arabs fed up with US involvement in the mid-east. -c
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Chris Losinger wrote: it's a hell of a chance to take, when you consider who's been attacking the US for the past 10 years: Arabs fed up with US involvement in the mid-east I don't know that we can not take the chance. In my opinion the US needs to change its foreign policy in a lot of ways, particularly to become more even handed. But I don't think that some of the people that we have had problems with in the past (Quadafi, UBL, SH) particularly need a good excuse to hate us. Each of them has acted for their own reasons, but I think probably only UBL is the only one of them who has some ax to grind with us for our Mid East involvement. Quadafi and SH both are brutal dictators who have supported terrorists, UBL is kindof an ideolog. If the US presented a strong, but consistent policy I think we would minimize the number of problem we have in the region. I'm not advocating just kicking the crap out of anyone who disagrees with us, just a willingness to try diplomacy first and when it fails provide an appropriate reaction. Uptight Ex-Military Republican married to a Commie Lib - How weird is that?
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KaЯl wrote: Scuds are these missiles derived from the German V2 of 1944, right? Wasn't this the way the USA started their space program? Viva Von Braun!
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Chris Losinger wrote: it's a hell of a chance to take, when you consider who's been attacking the US for the past 10 years: Arabs fed up with US involvement in the mid-east I don't know that we can not take the chance. In my opinion the US needs to change its foreign policy in a lot of ways, particularly to become more even handed. But I don't think that some of the people that we have had problems with in the past (Quadafi, UBL, SH) particularly need a good excuse to hate us. Each of them has acted for their own reasons, but I think probably only UBL is the only one of them who has some ax to grind with us for our Mid East involvement. Quadafi and SH both are brutal dictators who have supported terrorists, UBL is kindof an ideolog. If the US presented a strong, but consistent policy I think we would minimize the number of problem we have in the region. I'm not advocating just kicking the crap out of anyone who disagrees with us, just a willingness to try diplomacy first and when it fails provide an appropriate reaction. Uptight Ex-Military Republican married to a Commie Lib - How weird is that?
Doug Goulden wrote: I don't know that we can not take the chance. where's the greater danger: taking out one possible source of bio/chem weapons (in a world full of such sources) or creating a new reason for young men to use weapons that have nothing to do with bio/chem to express their new hatred of America? you know my answer. Doug Goulden wrote: But I don't think that some of the people that we have had problems with in the past (Quadafi, UBL, SH) particularly need a good excuse to hate us. true. but did GWB need to do it in such a way as to give a reason to the other 190+ countries? -c
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Why having to remind he was involved with the SS in the production of V2 in the concentration camp of Dora? He put men on the Moon.
Angels banished from heaven have no choice but to become demons Cowboy Bebop
KaЯl wrote: He put men on the Moon. Someone said that exchanging ideas through email (or similar systems) is prone to misinterpretations... Well, here's one case. This is a real case of admiration of Von Braun's work. Nothing else.
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KaЯl wrote: Moreover, you perfectly know nobody pretended SH had no weapons The funny thing is, I think that some of these folks reall believe that SH had disarmed, and he wasn't a threat. I agree that war sucks, I just disagree that you can solve every problem without it. It should be a last resort, but the US has waited to long to many times. Uptight Ex-Military Republican married to a Commie Lib - How weird is that?
Doug Goulden wrote: but the US has waited to long to many times I think the whole UNSC is to blame here. We (meaning the original coalition) should have acted when the Iraqi regime started challenging the original inspections. It is a shame that the all of the governments let it last as long as it has. As a species, we never seem to learn. Hey don't worry, I can handle it. I took something. I can see things no one else can see. Why are you dressed like that? - Jack Burton
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brianwelsch wrote: Put some muscle behind your words! Had I something to say about it, I'd been a bit harsher towards Bush and Blair. But I am not in the position to grab them by their neck and tell them to "Settle the fuck down". But then again, had I been in that "inner circle", I would probably have had more information than I currently have. So maybe, I could have been applauding Bush and Blair right now instead of barking at them. With the information I have right now, I can only say I'm doubtful if this war is the right thing. I'm only human you know. :) -- Shine, enlighten me - shine Shine, awaken me - shine Shine for all your suffering - shine
Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: I'm only human you know. :) I wasn't directing that you personally, Jörgen. Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: I'd been a bit harsher towards Bush and Blair or maybe Saddam ;) BW "We get general information and specific information, but none of the specific information talks about time, place or methods or means..." - Tom Ridge - US Secretary of Homeland Security
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i've heard many reports of Arabs from all over the region going to Iraq to help. and of course, the calls are up for Muslims all over the world to bring the fight directly to the US - where they actually stand a chance of doing damage. -c
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Chris Losinger wrote: and of course, the calls are up for Muslims all over the world to bring the fight directly to the US I was just thinking about that last night, and it sends chills up my spine. If the strike on Iraq is going to bring the war to US soil, it definitely isn't worth it. Brad Jennings "if the golden arches shut shop, where else are the VB people going to get work." - Colin Davies
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KaЯl wrote: Could France do more?! Yes. France could have proposed an honest approach that had repercussions if not followed through on. Point in fact, well I'll correct, my opinion is that France is against anything that requires anything with consequences. I don't know if you have children or not but if you do, try telling them to do something they don't want to do or telling them not to do something they want to do. If disobedience doesn't have a consequence, you ultimately become not a parent but a joke. In my opinion, and that is all any of us have here, France didn't care: what Iraq has, what Iraq intends or intended to do with it. Still opinion, France was more interested in preserving a friendship with Iraq than it was in stepping up to it's Security Council role. France and the rest of the council ( US included ) slept while hundreds of thousands of Africans have been slaughtered. Africa, again - my opinion, is France's sphere of influence and they should have initiated the action via the Security Council. Even in Europe, France's back yard, the US had to be the one to push for action --> Serbia. The end result, by the way, of not countering with a proposal that had any force to back it up is the demise of the one instituition ( UN Security Council ) that gave France a world stage. Mike
Mike Gaskey wrote: Point in fact, well I'll correct, my opinion is that France is against anything that requires anything with consequences. France refused to have an automatic authorization of war, an ultimatum, because IMO they feared the US would never have been satisfied, and would have gone to war whatever. Before Bush ultimatum, chirac agreed on the concept of a 30-day timetable but with a final decision from the council before attacking, but IMO too late. Mike Gaskey wrote: In my opinion, and that is all any of us have here, France didn't care: what Iraq has, what Iraq intends or intended to do with it. The vision you have is biased: France always said SH needed to be disarmed, that he could have WMD and that UN inspections were this time efficient. Mike Gaskey wrote: my opinion, is France's sphere of influence and they should have initiated the action via the Security Council. That's the problem, you have opinions, deep beliefs, but which are in fact clichés. I read in the US newspapers the legend of France searching its old past "Grandeur"... it was true with De Gaulle.. 40 years ago! Since 30 years, France has a new dream, and it's called Europe. Mike Gaskey wrote: France's back yard, the US had to be the one to push for action --> Serbia That the shame of Europe. We europeans are unable to have a common stance on foreign policy (and it worsens these days). Some of the countries in the EU refuse to do anything without the support of the US. And because the concept is "all, or no one", nothing moves, and I hate that. Incredible. I have to defend Chirac. If somebody told me that 1 year ago I would never have believed it.
Angels banished from heaven have no choice but to become demons Cowboy Bebop
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Doug Goulden wrote: I don't know that we can not take the chance. where's the greater danger: taking out one possible source of bio/chem weapons (in a world full of such sources) or creating a new reason for young men to use weapons that have nothing to do with bio/chem to express their new hatred of America? you know my answer. Doug Goulden wrote: But I don't think that some of the people that we have had problems with in the past (Quadafi, UBL, SH) particularly need a good excuse to hate us. true. but did GWB need to do it in such a way as to give a reason to the other 190+ countries? -c
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Chris Losinger wrote: but did GWB need to do it in such a way as to give a reason to the other 190+ countries I think that IF it is done right, the US and the UK and other nations that work together can show that people will no longer stand by and watch silently while there is evil in the world. Thats sounds simplistic, but I think when people hear the Iraqi people's side of the story, we will come out with a better world opinion. The interesting thing is that a lot of the Eastern European nations are supportive of the attack, I wonder if they have a deeper understanding of what the Iraqi people are going through and what SH is about. Uptight Ex-Military Republican married to a Commie Lib - How weird is that?