[WAR] Some questions...
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How come in the US and other pro-war nations there were no pro-war marches against the pro-peace rallies? Or do the minority only ever march?
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaMacbeth muttered: I am in blood / Stepped in so far, that should I wade no more, / Returning were as tedious as go o'er DavidW wrote: You are totally mad. Nice.
Paul Watson wrote: How come in the US and other pro-war nations there were no pro-war marches against the pro-peace rallies? Because people would view it as arrogant and wrong... :rolleyes: - Nitron
"Those that say a task is impossible shouldn't interrupt the ones who are doing it." - Chinese Proverb
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Yes, i know that. But if this is a legimitation (suspecting a country to have biological weapons) - than goodbye world. Then US could make war to every other country. Uhm... and another thing: Why can one country decide which countries are allowed to have those weapons and which not? World police? I know what american politicans say. I just want to know what the people are saying - especially to that fact. Paul Watson wrote: Maybe Europeans have learnt something from WWI and WWII and that is why they are so against this war? Yes, it's like that. We always remember what there was 60 years ago. But not only we should remember it - everyone should.
Its not just the fact Sadaam Hussein probably has biological weapons and chemical weapons. Its the fact that he has used them, against Iran and his own people. After the events of 9/11, Americans are mostly unwilling to accept the idea that Sadaam won't arm UBL or use them himself. You don't need long range missles to distribute chemical or biological weapons, they could be delivered by infecting people, or from crop dusters. Regardless of whether you support the war or not its not hard to imagine SH giving biological weapons to UBL. Politics do make strange bedfellows, the US being an enemy of SH, its conceivable to imagine that happening. The idea that SH wouldn't supply those weapons to people he couldn't directly control? Well that didn't stop Quadaffi from helping terrorist, or the Taliban. I support the US position that we need to remove SH from power. I don't want the US to rule the world, and I don't think that the world needs to be just like us. The Syrians and Saudi Arabia and others who support terrorism should wake up to the idea that we will track down the people who have (or will) hurt us. On the other hand we need to balance this with the need to be more even handed in our foreign policy towards the Palestinian - Israeli conflict. The US would just as soon stay here at home and take care of our kids and live our own lives, just like 99.9% of the rest of the world. Uptight Ex-Military Republican married to a Commie Lib - How weird is that?
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Michael A. Barnhart wrote: Christian Ballerstaller wrote: And - also interesting: why is nobody afraid here in europe? Just an answer but maybe it is because you are not being blamed for most of the worlds problems, like many in the US feel they are being blamed, and are then targets. Yes, Michael. I completely agree. But where does it come from that US is blamed for the world problems? Michael A. Barnhart wrote: Christian Ballerstaller wrote: We don't understand your thoughts here in europe. Why do you have this climate of fear? Why is it so extreme? Well from my side I do not see this climate of fear or extremism either. So it looks like your news sources are not really any better or objective than mine. Hmm. My sources are the people in the states and here. And in general the americans have more fear. Fear about criminals (why does US have the highest murder rate?), fear about their future and job (US is one of the richest countries - but there's nearly no social system compared to europe) and fear about other countries. Example Iraq: Do you really think, Saddam would have been so stupid and attacked US? Why should he? He knows that he doesn't have a chance. And he knows that no one in the world would have tried to stop US striking back. So... this is why I wouldn't have fear if I would be an US citizen. Michael A. Barnhart wrote: Christian Ballerstaller wrote: p.s. A last comment: American TV Stations like CNN, NBC and so on are broadcasting crap all the time. Correct, They are in business to sell their ratings, Just like tabloid news papers through out the world. If you want any decent news you have to go to the radio news (some of which is public stations more like the BBC is.) or other purchased papers. Can you tell me a newspaper that has decent news? Thanks for your explanations :) Chris
Christian Ballerstaller wrote: But where does it come from that US is blamed for the world problems? Most likely the economic power of the US. Nobody likes a yuppie capitalist, so just say it's all their fault. :~ [edit] Well, I guess Hollywood would be a close second, and I'm sure MTV doesn't help. X| [/edit] [edit2] On second thought, better add CNN to that list... [/edit2] - Nitron
"Those that say a task is impossible shouldn't interrupt the ones who are doing it." - Chinese Proverb
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How come in the US and other pro-war nations there were no pro-war marches against the pro-peace rallies? Or do the minority only ever march?
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaMacbeth muttered: I am in blood / Stepped in so far, that should I wade no more, / Returning were as tedious as go o'er DavidW wrote: You are totally mad. Nice.
Paul Watson wrote: How come in the US and other pro-war nations there were no pro-war marches against the pro-peace rallies? I support the need to remove Sadaam Hussein, but I'm not pro-war. No sane person could believe that war is a desirable state of affairs. The disagreement that I have with most of the "pro-peace" crowd is that sometimes war is necessary (but evil). Uptight Ex-Military Republican married to a Commie Lib - How weird is that?
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someone yesterday here mentioned some of his SCUDs which do 500miles Someone with "war fever", you mean. Even the US Government said 2 days ago there were no scuds fired. It was a mistake by an overexcited reporter (one amony many). Those willing to trade liberty for security deserve neither - Benjamin Franklin
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Then enlighten me. All I see in the media WRT the UK are violent peace-monger rallies and anti-bush/blair celebrations. Is there more? - Nitron
"Those that say a task is impossible shouldn't interrupt the ones who are doing it." - Chinese Proverb
Try looking to some British media for the British view, not your own. Same as we have to WRT the US. There is plenty out there. What you are seeing is pro-war propaganda; not to be wholey unexpected.
David Wulff
"Somebody get this freakin' duck away from me!" - Strong Bad [^]
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David Wulff wrote: They should be removed from the equation Its one of the beauties of the system that even ignorant people get to vote. Unfortunately, it really is the right way Uptight Ex-Military Republican married to a Commie Lib - How weird is that?
Yeah I know, it's just a shame so few people actually realise the true value of their vote. :((
David Wulff
"Somebody get this freakin' duck away from me!" - Strong Bad [^]
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Michael A. Barnhart wrote: Christian Ballerstaller wrote: And - also interesting: why is nobody afraid here in europe? Just an answer but maybe it is because you are not being blamed for most of the worlds problems, like many in the US feel they are being blamed, and are then targets. Yes, Michael. I completely agree. But where does it come from that US is blamed for the world problems? Michael A. Barnhart wrote: Christian Ballerstaller wrote: We don't understand your thoughts here in europe. Why do you have this climate of fear? Why is it so extreme? Well from my side I do not see this climate of fear or extremism either. So it looks like your news sources are not really any better or objective than mine. Hmm. My sources are the people in the states and here. And in general the americans have more fear. Fear about criminals (why does US have the highest murder rate?), fear about their future and job (US is one of the richest countries - but there's nearly no social system compared to europe) and fear about other countries. Example Iraq: Do you really think, Saddam would have been so stupid and attacked US? Why should he? He knows that he doesn't have a chance. And he knows that no one in the world would have tried to stop US striking back. So... this is why I wouldn't have fear if I would be an US citizen. Michael A. Barnhart wrote: Christian Ballerstaller wrote: p.s. A last comment: American TV Stations like CNN, NBC and so on are broadcasting crap all the time. Correct, They are in business to sell their ratings, Just like tabloid news papers through out the world. If you want any decent news you have to go to the radio news (some of which is public stations more like the BBC is.) or other purchased papers. Can you tell me a newspaper that has decent news? Thanks for your explanations :) Chris
Just some clarification: Christian Ballerstaller wrote: why does US have the highest murder rate? It doesn't. In fact, several European cities have a higher murder rate than the US. If you remove the top metropolitan areas, the murder rate in the US is lower than that of Switzerland. Ironically, many Americans make this same assumption. But they aren't alone in misunderstanding things like murder rates. Overreacting to news seems to be a common human trait. Someone wrote: American TV Stations like CNN, NBC... some of which is public stations more like the BBC is Christian Ballerstaller wrote: Can you tell me a newspaper that has decent news? I use many news sources for my information and have found that American news is no better or worse than all the other news. ALL news has a bias and caters to their market. In my experience, if the bias of the news reflects the views of their audience, they will be perceived as objective by that audience. I have found that NPR and BBC are unabashedly liberal, but worthwhile as news sources when taken in with the Wall Street Journal and even Fox News, amongst others. (And for all the complaints of CNN, incidentally, my least favorite source along with the New York Times, it was one of the few to honestly report numbers at anti-war rallies AND, importantly, pro-war rallies.) (You can extend this general rule to politics. When politicians don't do what a segment of the population wants, which is inevitable in a pluralistic society, that segment generally complains how undemocratic things are and that politicians are being paid off, etc.) Joe
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How come in the US and other pro-war nations there were no pro-war marches against the pro-peace rallies? Or do the minority only ever march?
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaMacbeth muttered: I am in blood / Stepped in so far, that should I wade no more, / Returning were as tedious as go o'er DavidW wrote: You are totally mad. Nice.
Paul Watson wrote: How come in the US and other pro-war nations there were no pro-war marches against the pro-peace rallies? There have been, though many are held as pro-American or pro-Soldier rallies. In many cities, those attending these marches and demonstrations have outnumbered those at the anti-war rallies. (Even NPR finally reported this about some demonstrations. CNN also reported this.) Of course, if you are in a minority on an opinion, a rally can be an effective way to garner more publicity that you would otherwise receive. (Though I believe they are far less effective than people generally perceive. They mainly just tend to reinforce supporters attitudes.) (Out of curiosity, and not being the least bit sarcastic, before the fall of apartheid, did anyone hold Pro-Apartheid marches?)
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Yes, i know that. But if this is a legimitation (suspecting a country to have biological weapons) - than goodbye world. Then US could make war to every other country. Uhm... and another thing: Why can one country decide which countries are allowed to have those weapons and which not? World police? I know what american politicans say. I just want to know what the people are saying - especially to that fact. Paul Watson wrote: Maybe Europeans have learnt something from WWI and WWII and that is why they are so against this war? Yes, it's like that. We always remember what there was 60 years ago. But not only we should remember it - everyone should.
a legimitation (suspecting a country to have biological weapons) - than goodbye world. Then US could make war to every other country. ..also, any country could make war with US, although there are not many in the world who may want to do that. It is about balance of power. When the balance of power tilts against US sometime in the future, this precedence will haunt them. They have set an unhealthy precedent on unilateral aggression, with a spin of "self-defence". I am well aware that Iraq may have violated many UN resolutions, and the world community have a reason to remove Saddam; but the war is certainly not for defense. One day before the war, Kuwaitis say on FOX that they have no fear of the war affecting them. Americans are also going about ehir life normally, despite being in a homeland security orange. Noone I talked to (not a large cross section of American people, but they are all from NY though) even expects a terrorist attack to happen now. My article on a reference-counted smart pointer that supports polymorphic objects and raw pointers
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Try looking to some British media for the British view, not your own. Same as we have to WRT the US. There is plenty out there. What you are seeing is pro-war propaganda; not to be wholey unexpected.
David Wulff
"Somebody get this freakin' duck away from me!" - Strong Bad [^]
David Wulff wrote: Try looking to some British media for the British view, not your own. But that would require effort and an attention span! ;P - Nitron
"Those that say a task is impossible shouldn't interrupt the ones who are doing it." - Chinese Proverb
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How come in the US and other pro-war nations there were no pro-war marches against the pro-peace rallies? Or do the minority only ever march?
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaMacbeth muttered: I am in blood / Stepped in so far, that should I wade no more, / Returning were as tedious as go o'er DavidW wrote: You are totally mad. Nice.
Paul Watson wrote: How come in the US and other pro-war nations there were no pro-war marches against the pro-peace rallies? Well to answer your question litteraly, the US pro-war people do beleive the anti-war do have a right to protest. Or were you saying there are not pro-war marches? If so see my response above. There are. Paul Watson wrote: Or do the minority only ever march? Now if I read this right, You are saying the anti-war are the ones marching correct? ""
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Michael A. Barnhart wrote: Christian Ballerstaller wrote: And - also interesting: why is nobody afraid here in europe? Just an answer but maybe it is because you are not being blamed for most of the worlds problems, like many in the US feel they are being blamed, and are then targets. Yes, Michael. I completely agree. But where does it come from that US is blamed for the world problems? Michael A. Barnhart wrote: Christian Ballerstaller wrote: We don't understand your thoughts here in europe. Why do you have this climate of fear? Why is it so extreme? Well from my side I do not see this climate of fear or extremism either. So it looks like your news sources are not really any better or objective than mine. Hmm. My sources are the people in the states and here. And in general the americans have more fear. Fear about criminals (why does US have the highest murder rate?), fear about their future and job (US is one of the richest countries - but there's nearly no social system compared to europe) and fear about other countries. Example Iraq: Do you really think, Saddam would have been so stupid and attacked US? Why should he? He knows that he doesn't have a chance. And he knows that no one in the world would have tried to stop US striking back. So... this is why I wouldn't have fear if I would be an US citizen. Michael A. Barnhart wrote: Christian Ballerstaller wrote: p.s. A last comment: American TV Stations like CNN, NBC and so on are broadcasting crap all the time. Correct, They are in business to sell their ratings, Just like tabloid news papers through out the world. If you want any decent news you have to go to the radio news (some of which is public stations more like the BBC is.) or other purchased papers. Can you tell me a newspaper that has decent news? Thanks for your explanations :) Chris
Christian Ballerstaller wrote: But where does it come from that US is blamed for the world problems? I hope you understand any answer is going to be a gross generalization. People in general are greedy and think if you have something I want you must have cheated somebody so you are at fault. They seldom consider the other actually earned it. Christian Ballerstaller wrote: why does US have the highest murder rate?), To answer this I would need some information unavailable to me and actually I can say the murder rate in Iraq is much higher, just unreported. The murder rates in the US cities varies dramatically, you are probably hearing the worst side of it on the news. Now I do not claim there are not problems. Statistical Abstract of the US, 2001, the murder rates in selected US cities for 2000 (per 100,000) were: Boston 5.6 New York 8.9 Philadelphia 20.3 Chicago 22.7 Detroit 42.6 Washington DC 46.4 per 100,000. Look at Detroit and Washington, very high from just the numbers. But the population of those cities is heavily low income families and it quickly drops off as you look at cities where more of the population lives in the cities vs any one who can lives out side. So the numbers get distorted quickly. I live in Fort Worth, Texas and have a friend who works in the county parole office. Fort Worth is divided up into about 20 districts. 90 to 95% of the murders occur in the 2 districts that are primarily made up of the low income areas. If you only reported those areas the numbers would be very high. If you reported not only Fort Worth but all of the surrounding towns the numbers would go down. Remember my comment above about the haves and the have nots. If you have more than me you must have cheated somebody. That line is often said when he deals with offenders. So the US as a whole may be very wealthy and even those who we consider poor are better off then 75% of the world, they see the ones down the street who have so much more and are jealous of them. This breads discontent and anger. I am saying noting against these people other than they show this human side. I am angry at work when other get praise and promotions that I feel they do not deserve, especially when I feel I do deserve something. If you reported whole sections together I think you would see different numbers. Again that does not say a problem does not exist. Christian Ballerstaller wrote: fear about their future and job Compared to what. 10
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Someone wrote yesterday: The world is a much safer place if every country has at least one nuclear weapon! Well, I disagree. I think the world would be a much safer place if _every_ country would learn to respect the value of life and if the politicans wouldn't just care about their and their countries benefit (no matter the cost). That includes Saddam as well as George. Things that make me feel sad are that politicans don't learn from other senseless and brutal wars in the past. And not even 'civilized' western countries learn from it. Every reasonable person should say that WW1, WW2, Vietnam and so on are more than enough. But it doesn't seem like that. Why are so many people in U.S. OK with a war? What I don't understand is: why are americans afraid of Iraqi attacks? Could they really have some long-distance bombers to fly over to U.S. and attack them? I don't believe it. And - also interesting: why is nobody afraid here in europe? You can talk to every person you want - nobody is afraid - and we're so much closer. Could it be that it is this _new_ american climate of fear? The movie Bowling for columbine was a good example for that. We don't understand your thoughts here in europe. Why do you have this climate of fear? Why is it so extreme? My girlfriend is from the US and she's in europe since some months. She has no fear of Saddam, but every time when she's calling her parents in the US they are so afraid. She doesn't understand it - and I also don't. Another question: americans are more religious than europeans and all my american friends are more religious than I am. I could never want a person to be killed - and also not in a war. I could never arrange that with myself and religion. Why can so many americans do that, even if they are more religious? I asked my american friends... but I didn't get an answer. That makes me sad. Christian p.s. A last comment: American TV Stations like CNN, NBC and so on are broadcasting crap all the time. What a propaganda machine. Is it that why americans are so afraid? Is it that why so many normal americans change their mind about war on iraq these days? To the 'american news design group': Good work. You are successful. p.s. If anyone feels offended: I'm sorry, I only wanted to ask some things. And I can't get those things into my head.
The only problem is: every country armed to the teeth and afraid of each other is more resistant to "one-offs" than disarmament. (NOT saying it's more stable on the long run - only one bad apple can spoil the ... whatever, PC pool, or something) Basically, all news stations broadcast crap. Most amazing is the difference between the european and the CNN news. OK, maybe CNN sounds more like propaganda, but probably that's just me. :rolleyes: So what was your question? Oh yeah, americans and fear... :cool: ps. gave you a fiver 'cause i don't think you should be greyed.
Italian is a beautiful language. amare means to love, and amara bitter.
sighist | Agile Programming | doxygen -
Yes, i know that. But if this is a legimitation (suspecting a country to have biological weapons) - than goodbye world. Then US could make war to every other country. Uhm... and another thing: Why can one country decide which countries are allowed to have those weapons and which not? World police? I know what american politicans say. I just want to know what the people are saying - especially to that fact. Paul Watson wrote: Maybe Europeans have learnt something from WWI and WWII and that is why they are so against this war? Yes, it's like that. We always remember what there was 60 years ago. But not only we should remember it - everyone should.
Christian Ballerstaller wrote: Yes, it's like that. We always remember what there was 60 years ago. But not only we should remember it - everyone should. We do. Thats why we are stopping Saddam now - before he can do the Hitler number. Remember Mr. Chamberlain ? He had his head up is rose smelling orifice also - cost a bunch of lives Christian Ballerstaller wrote: I just want to know what the people are saying - especially to that fact. The majority of the American people support the war. Europe , with the exception of England , has little to say about anything. I do predict though, that as soon as the dirty work is over , they will all be lining up at the UN feeding trough trying to make some hay off of the reconstrution of Iraq. Richard In Italy for thirty years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love; they had five hundred years of democracy and peace and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock. Orson Welles