work contract question
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I already talk about that before over the phone ... In fact the PM just emailed me he was sorry and going to fix it soon! So here we go, fingers crossed! ;P (making only reasonable demand so far...)
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Super Lloyd wrote:
making only reasonable demand so far...
As long as your demands are reasonable they will respect you for making them.
Once you lose your pride the rest is easy. In the end, only three things matter: how much you loved, how gently you lived, and how gracefully you let go of things not meant for you. – Buddha Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
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I'm about to start new work. I specified that I wanted to keep ownership of software created on my own time (which hasn't been released yet but is making good progress) I have the work contract in front of me now and the following section leave me .. mmm.. unsure...
Intellectual Property Rights Any work or material created, discovered or improved by you during the course of your employment with the company which is capable of being protected by letters patent, design, registration copyright or any other form of protection will belong absolutely to the Company and you agree to execute any document required to give effect to this You agree to waive in favour if the Company, its licensees and successor in title and morals rights you may have in both existing and future works created by you in the course of your employments with the company. For avoidance of doubt, the company shall have no rights to any intellectual property developed by the employee prior to their employment with the company.
Now I wonder, what become of my (yet unreleased) home project in those condition? Should I simply released the unfinished version now and simply update it? How the prior development would be proved? Anyhow I won't start before 1 month so I can easily put out a simple installer and have an embryonic software and website ready...
All in one Menu-Ribbon Bar DirectX for WinRT/C# since 2013! Taking over the world since 1371!
You really need to ask a lawyer which I don't think describes most members of CP. Intellectual property law varies from country to country. In Australia your employer cannot take away your rights. They cannot apply catchall phrases to the whole of your life which interfere with your right to make a living. You may like to read this: http://www.mondaq.com/australia/x/113188/Patent/Copyright+and+employees+Who+owns+what[^] IMHO - I think you are able to sign this as it covers work you have done under their direction but you may like to challenge the wording.
Peter Wasser "The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell
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I'm about to start new work. I specified that I wanted to keep ownership of software created on my own time (which hasn't been released yet but is making good progress) I have the work contract in front of me now and the following section leave me .. mmm.. unsure...
Intellectual Property Rights Any work or material created, discovered or improved by you during the course of your employment with the company which is capable of being protected by letters patent, design, registration copyright or any other form of protection will belong absolutely to the Company and you agree to execute any document required to give effect to this You agree to waive in favour if the Company, its licensees and successor in title and morals rights you may have in both existing and future works created by you in the course of your employments with the company. For avoidance of doubt, the company shall have no rights to any intellectual property developed by the employee prior to their employment with the company.
Now I wonder, what become of my (yet unreleased) home project in those condition? Should I simply released the unfinished version now and simply update it? How the prior development would be proved? Anyhow I won't start before 1 month so I can easily put out a simple installer and have an embryonic software and website ready...
All in one Menu-Ribbon Bar DirectX for WinRT/C# since 2013! Taking over the world since 1371!
Generally you can get away with doing work outside of your contracted hours, if you don't use the companies hardware, and the product is not in competition with whichever product/service your company provides. Sadly you do get some companies who believe they own you when they give you a salary and will milk you for every cent you have if they find out you do anything outside of the company.
My plan is to live forever ... so far so good
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Generally you can get away with doing work outside of your contracted hours, if you don't use the companies hardware, and the product is not in competition with whichever product/service your company provides. Sadly you do get some companies who believe they own you when they give you a salary and will milk you for every cent you have if they find out you do anything outside of the company.
My plan is to live forever ... so far so good
Yeah, I just want to make clear that little point of detail! :-D
All in one Menu-Ribbon Bar DirectX for WinRT/C# since 2013! Taking over the world since 1371!
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You really need to ask a lawyer which I don't think describes most members of CP. Intellectual property law varies from country to country. In Australia your employer cannot take away your rights. They cannot apply catchall phrases to the whole of your life which interfere with your right to make a living. You may like to read this: http://www.mondaq.com/australia/x/113188/Patent/Copyright+and+employees+Who+owns+what[^] IMHO - I think you are able to sign this as it covers work you have done under their direction but you may like to challenge the wording.
Peter Wasser "The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell
Interesting!
All in one Menu-Ribbon Bar DirectX for WinRT/C# since 2013! Taking over the world since 1371!
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_Maxxx_ wrote:
That's actually not true.
Yes it is. I do not remember any contract for consulting work as an independent contractor that I signed without first making changes to it.
_Maxxx_ wrote:
If you don't sign, but continue to work / get paid, then you are deemed to have agreed to the contract
I never work without a contract. :doh: That goes without saying. Anyone who provides professional services without having a contract is not being professional.
Once you lose your pride the rest is easy. In the end, only three things matter: how much you loved, how gently you lived, and how gracefully you let go of things not meant for you. – Buddha Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
It makes no difference what you remember - any agreement between two people, whether verbally, in writing or dripped in morse code in blood, is enforceable as a contractual agreement; the reason for signatures is merely obtaining proof that both parties have the same understanding.
JimmyRopes wrote:
I never work without a contract. :doh: That goes without saying.
In the real world it certainly does not go without saying - as lots and lots of people do work without written contracts.
JimmyRopes wrote:
Anyone who provides professional services without having a contract is not being professional.
Sure - and when it's your first week on the job, with a big organisation, and you're new (maybe even your first job outside of the chip shop) you just march into HR and refuse to work until they've provided you with a contract in writing to which you agree? Sure.
PooperPig - Coming Soon
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If you ask or demand the contract be modified, you run the risk of losing the gig or being labeled a trouble maker. I would have a casual discussion with the person in charge. And then follow up with an email saying, "Just to clarify my understanding of what we talked about this morning, I retain rights to the side project I'm working on in my spare time....Correct?" Print and keep the email.
Steve Wellens wrote:
ou run the risk of losing the gig or being labeled a trouble maker
Wow I have never heard of anyone losing a gig for negotiating a contract, I would consider it a basic precept to contracting that you understand and agree with the content of the contract. I regularly ask for changes to a contract if I am not comfortable with the terms.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity RAH
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I'm about to start new work. I specified that I wanted to keep ownership of software created on my own time (which hasn't been released yet but is making good progress) I have the work contract in front of me now and the following section leave me .. mmm.. unsure...
Intellectual Property Rights Any work or material created, discovered or improved by you during the course of your employment with the company which is capable of being protected by letters patent, design, registration copyright or any other form of protection will belong absolutely to the Company and you agree to execute any document required to give effect to this You agree to waive in favour if the Company, its licensees and successor in title and morals rights you may have in both existing and future works created by you in the course of your employments with the company. For avoidance of doubt, the company shall have no rights to any intellectual property developed by the employee prior to their employment with the company.
Now I wonder, what become of my (yet unreleased) home project in those condition? Should I simply released the unfinished version now and simply update it? How the prior development would be proved? Anyhow I won't start before 1 month so I can easily put out a simple installer and have an embryonic software and website ready...
All in one Menu-Ribbon Bar DirectX for WinRT/C# since 2013! Taking over the world since 1371!
Super Lloyd wrote:
Now I wonder, what become of my (yet unreleased) home project in those condition?
Sam Goldwyn (of MGM fame) famously said that "an unwritten contract is worth the paper it's written on." Irrespective of labour law in your country, I would get your employer's agreement in writing regarding your ownership of any IP not developed during work hours, etc. Winning a lawsuit is nice. Not having to go to court in the first place is even better, and a damn sight cheaper.
If you have an important point to make, don't try to be subtle or clever. Use a pile driver. Hit the point once. Then come back and hit it again. Then hit it a third time - a tremendous whack. --Winston Churchill
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I'm about to start new work. I specified that I wanted to keep ownership of software created on my own time (which hasn't been released yet but is making good progress) I have the work contract in front of me now and the following section leave me .. mmm.. unsure...
Intellectual Property Rights Any work or material created, discovered or improved by you during the course of your employment with the company which is capable of being protected by letters patent, design, registration copyright or any other form of protection will belong absolutely to the Company and you agree to execute any document required to give effect to this You agree to waive in favour if the Company, its licensees and successor in title and morals rights you may have in both existing and future works created by you in the course of your employments with the company. For avoidance of doubt, the company shall have no rights to any intellectual property developed by the employee prior to their employment with the company.
Now I wonder, what become of my (yet unreleased) home project in those condition? Should I simply released the unfinished version now and simply update it? How the prior development would be proved? Anyhow I won't start before 1 month so I can easily put out a simple installer and have an embryonic software and website ready...
All in one Menu-Ribbon Bar DirectX for WinRT/C# since 2013! Taking over the world since 1371!
I have sometimes asked such questions myself. The answer, for sparetime work yes - but no, not if: the prog is competing with the company. And again no if the prog takes off and you spend all night on it and become too tired to perform the work we pay you for. Swedish work culture is quite reasonable and forgiving in these matters. I have no idea about the conditions Down Under... Good Luck!
Life is too shor
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I'm about to start new work. I specified that I wanted to keep ownership of software created on my own time (which hasn't been released yet but is making good progress) I have the work contract in front of me now and the following section leave me .. mmm.. unsure...
Intellectual Property Rights Any work or material created, discovered or improved by you during the course of your employment with the company which is capable of being protected by letters patent, design, registration copyright or any other form of protection will belong absolutely to the Company and you agree to execute any document required to give effect to this You agree to waive in favour if the Company, its licensees and successor in title and morals rights you may have in both existing and future works created by you in the course of your employments with the company. For avoidance of doubt, the company shall have no rights to any intellectual property developed by the employee prior to their employment with the company.
Now I wonder, what become of my (yet unreleased) home project in those condition? Should I simply released the unfinished version now and simply update it? How the prior development would be proved? Anyhow I won't start before 1 month so I can easily put out a simple installer and have an embryonic software and website ready...
All in one Menu-Ribbon Bar DirectX for WinRT/C# since 2013! Taking over the world since 1371!
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I have sometimes asked such questions myself. The answer, for sparetime work yes - but no, not if: the prog is competing with the company. And again no if the prog takes off and you spend all night on it and become too tired to perform the work we pay you for. Swedish work culture is quite reasonable and forgiving in these matters. I have no idea about the conditions Down Under... Good Luck!
Life is too shor
Well I fond that link to a government web site: https://www.business.qld.gov.au/business/support-tools-grants/tools/intellectual-property-info-kit/browse/employees-contractors/ownership[^] Quite reasonable! :)
All in one Menu-Ribbon Bar DirectX for WinRT/C# since 2013! Taking over the world since 1371!
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Super Lloyd wrote:
created by you in the course of your employments with the company.
I read that to mean you are free to do what you like outside of office hours. But, as always, you should check with your lawyer.
yeah, QLD gov had a page on that, it is clear! Beside they are working on a work contract amendment for all developer following my remark! :laugh: https://www.business.qld.gov.au/business/support-tools-grants/tools/intellectual-property-info-kit/browse/employees-contractors/ownership[^]
All in one Menu-Ribbon Bar DirectX for WinRT/C# since 2013! Taking over the world since 1371!
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It makes no difference what you remember - any agreement between two people, whether verbally, in writing or dripped in morse code in blood, is enforceable as a contractual agreement; the reason for signatures is merely obtaining proof that both parties have the same understanding.
JimmyRopes wrote:
I never work without a contract. :doh: That goes without saying.
In the real world it certainly does not go without saying - as lots and lots of people do work without written contracts.
JimmyRopes wrote:
Anyone who provides professional services without having a contract is not being professional.
Sure - and when it's your first week on the job, with a big organisation, and you're new (maybe even your first job outside of the chip shop) you just march into HR and refuse to work until they've provided you with a contract in writing to which you agree? Sure.
PooperPig - Coming Soon
_Maxxx_ wrote:
It makes no difference what you remember - any agreement between two people, whether verbally, in writing or dripped in morse code in blood, is enforceable as a contractual agreement; the reason for signatures is merely obtaining proof that both parties have the same understanding.
Bollocks.
_Maxxx_ wrote:
In the real world it certainly does not go without saying - as lots and lots of people do work without written contracts.
Maybe at the chip shop but not consulting work.
Once you lose your pride the rest is easy. In the end, only three things matter: how much you loved, how gently you lived, and how gracefully you let go of things not meant for you. – Buddha Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
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_Maxxx_ wrote:
It makes no difference what you remember - any agreement between two people, whether verbally, in writing or dripped in morse code in blood, is enforceable as a contractual agreement; the reason for signatures is merely obtaining proof that both parties have the same understanding.
Bollocks.
_Maxxx_ wrote:
In the real world it certainly does not go without saying - as lots and lots of people do work without written contracts.
Maybe at the chip shop but not consulting work.
Once you lose your pride the rest is easy. In the end, only three things matter: how much you loved, how gently you lived, and how gracefully you let go of things not meant for you. – Buddha Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
JimmyRopes wrote:
Bollocks.
One example[^] Another one[^] Another (word document)[^]
Quote:
An employment contract (also called a “contract of employment” or a “contract of service”) is a legal agreement between you and your employer. It contains the terms and conditions that you have agreed will apply to your employment relationship. Examples of common terms in an employment contract are: how much you will be paid, your ordinary hours of work, whether you will receive overtime pay (and at what rate), and the notice you must give your employer if you want to resign from your job. The terms and conditions of an employment contract can be agreed: • in a written document (sometimes even if it is not signed); • in a verbal discussion; • by the actions or behaviour of both you and your employer; or by any combination of these.
So - not bollocks at all, but fact. Sorry - you may choose to believe a contra
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I'm about to start new work. I specified that I wanted to keep ownership of software created on my own time (which hasn't been released yet but is making good progress) I have the work contract in front of me now and the following section leave me .. mmm.. unsure...
Intellectual Property Rights Any work or material created, discovered or improved by you during the course of your employment with the company which is capable of being protected by letters patent, design, registration copyright or any other form of protection will belong absolutely to the Company and you agree to execute any document required to give effect to this You agree to waive in favour if the Company, its licensees and successor in title and morals rights you may have in both existing and future works created by you in the course of your employments with the company. For avoidance of doubt, the company shall have no rights to any intellectual property developed by the employee prior to their employment with the company.
Now I wonder, what become of my (yet unreleased) home project in those condition? Should I simply released the unfinished version now and simply update it? How the prior development would be proved? Anyhow I won't start before 1 month so I can easily put out a simple installer and have an embryonic software and website ready...
All in one Menu-Ribbon Bar DirectX for WinRT/C# since 2013! Taking over the world since 1371!
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JimmyRopes wrote:
Bollocks.
One example[^] Another one[^] Another (word document)[^]
Quote:
An employment contract (also called a “contract of employment” or a “contract of service”) is a legal agreement between you and your employer. It contains the terms and conditions that you have agreed will apply to your employment relationship. Examples of common terms in an employment contract are: how much you will be paid, your ordinary hours of work, whether you will receive overtime pay (and at what rate), and the notice you must give your employer if you want to resign from your job. The terms and conditions of an employment contract can be agreed: • in a written document (sometimes even if it is not signed); • in a verbal discussion; • by the actions or behaviour of both you and your employer; or by any combination of these.
So - not bollocks at all, but fact. Sorry - you may choose to believe a contra
See how a verbal agreement works out for you when someone refuses to pay until you complete their understanding of what is contracted. I want it in writing.
Once you lose your pride the rest is easy. In the end, only three things matter: how much you loved, how gently you lived, and how gracefully you let go of things not meant for you. – Buddha Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
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Steve Wellens wrote:
ou run the risk of losing the gig or being labeled a trouble maker
Wow I have never heard of anyone losing a gig for negotiating a contract, I would consider it a basic precept to contracting that you understand and agree with the content of the contract. I regularly ask for changes to a contract if I am not comfortable with the terms.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity RAH
Mycroft Holmes wrote:
I have never heard of anyone losing a gig for negotiating a contract,
I was once asked to sign a thick contract that included the stipulation that I was familiar with the Foreign Corrupt Policies act. I told them I wasn't familiar with that act and it should be removed...I couldn't sign it. They agreed and promised to remove it. They encouraged me to give notice at my current job. They sent me a new contract but there were no changes! So I never took the gig. I did take the contract and show it to my current boss and negotiated a higher rate for myself!
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Mycroft Holmes wrote:
I have never heard of anyone losing a gig for negotiating a contract,
I was once asked to sign a thick contract that included the stipulation that I was familiar with the Foreign Corrupt Policies act. I told them I wasn't familiar with that act and it should be removed...I couldn't sign it. They agreed and promised to remove it. They encouraged me to give notice at my current job. They sent me a new contract but there were no changes! So I never took the gig. I did take the contract and show it to my current boss and negotiated a higher rate for myself!
Steve Wellens wrote:
I did take the contract and show it to my current boss and negotiated a higher rate for myself!
Always a good option!
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity RAH
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See how a verbal agreement works out for you when someone refuses to pay until you complete their understanding of what is contracted. I want it in writing.
Once you lose your pride the rest is easy. In the end, only three things matter: how much you loved, how gently you lived, and how gracefully you let go of things not meant for you. – Buddha Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
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I'm about to start new work. I specified that I wanted to keep ownership of software created on my own time (which hasn't been released yet but is making good progress) I have the work contract in front of me now and the following section leave me .. mmm.. unsure...
Intellectual Property Rights Any work or material created, discovered or improved by you during the course of your employment with the company which is capable of being protected by letters patent, design, registration copyright or any other form of protection will belong absolutely to the Company and you agree to execute any document required to give effect to this You agree to waive in favour if the Company, its licensees and successor in title and morals rights you may have in both existing and future works created by you in the course of your employments with the company. For avoidance of doubt, the company shall have no rights to any intellectual property developed by the employee prior to their employment with the company.
Now I wonder, what become of my (yet unreleased) home project in those condition? Should I simply released the unfinished version now and simply update it? How the prior development would be proved? Anyhow I won't start before 1 month so I can easily put out a simple installer and have an embryonic software and website ready...
All in one Menu-Ribbon Bar DirectX for WinRT/C# since 2013! Taking over the world since 1371!
I agree that what you quote is too vague. Here is a relevant snippet from one I signed for a contract: This is from an agency (Employer) that got me some work at a Client of theirs: " Employee agrees that any inventions (whether patentable or not), discoveries, creations (including programs, whether denominated software, firmware or otherwise), and improvements thereof, that Employee may develop or create or assist in developing or creating during employment, that are along the lines of the business, work or investigations of Employer, or that result from or are suggested by any work that Employee may do for or on behalf of Employer, shall be the sole and exclusive property of the Client. " (I added the underlining.) I thought I had others around, but I'm not finding them right now.