work contract question
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I'm about to start new work. I specified that I wanted to keep ownership of software created on my own time (which hasn't been released yet but is making good progress) I have the work contract in front of me now and the following section leave me .. mmm.. unsure...
Intellectual Property Rights Any work or material created, discovered or improved by you during the course of your employment with the company which is capable of being protected by letters patent, design, registration copyright or any other form of protection will belong absolutely to the Company and you agree to execute any document required to give effect to this You agree to waive in favour if the Company, its licensees and successor in title and morals rights you may have in both existing and future works created by you in the course of your employments with the company. For avoidance of doubt, the company shall have no rights to any intellectual property developed by the employee prior to their employment with the company.
Now I wonder, what become of my (yet unreleased) home project in those condition? Should I simply released the unfinished version now and simply update it? How the prior development would be proved? Anyhow I won't start before 1 month so I can easily put out a simple installer and have an embryonic software and website ready...
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JimmyRopes wrote:
Bollocks.
One example[^] Another one[^] Another (word document)[^]
Quote:
An employment contract (also called a “contract of employment” or a “contract of service”) is a legal agreement between you and your employer. It contains the terms and conditions that you have agreed will apply to your employment relationship. Examples of common terms in an employment contract are: how much you will be paid, your ordinary hours of work, whether you will receive overtime pay (and at what rate), and the notice you must give your employer if you want to resign from your job. The terms and conditions of an employment contract can be agreed: • in a written document (sometimes even if it is not signed); • in a verbal discussion; • by the actions or behaviour of both you and your employer; or by any combination of these.
So - not bollocks at all, but fact. Sorry - you may choose to believe a contra
See how a verbal agreement works out for you when someone refuses to pay until you complete their understanding of what is contracted. I want it in writing.
Once you lose your pride the rest is easy. In the end, only three things matter: how much you loved, how gently you lived, and how gracefully you let go of things not meant for you. – Buddha Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
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Steve Wellens wrote:
ou run the risk of losing the gig or being labeled a trouble maker
Wow I have never heard of anyone losing a gig for negotiating a contract, I would consider it a basic precept to contracting that you understand and agree with the content of the contract. I regularly ask for changes to a contract if I am not comfortable with the terms.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity RAH
Mycroft Holmes wrote:
I have never heard of anyone losing a gig for negotiating a contract,
I was once asked to sign a thick contract that included the stipulation that I was familiar with the Foreign Corrupt Policies act. I told them I wasn't familiar with that act and it should be removed...I couldn't sign it. They agreed and promised to remove it. They encouraged me to give notice at my current job. They sent me a new contract but there were no changes! So I never took the gig. I did take the contract and show it to my current boss and negotiated a higher rate for myself!
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Mycroft Holmes wrote:
I have never heard of anyone losing a gig for negotiating a contract,
I was once asked to sign a thick contract that included the stipulation that I was familiar with the Foreign Corrupt Policies act. I told them I wasn't familiar with that act and it should be removed...I couldn't sign it. They agreed and promised to remove it. They encouraged me to give notice at my current job. They sent me a new contract but there were no changes! So I never took the gig. I did take the contract and show it to my current boss and negotiated a higher rate for myself!
Steve Wellens wrote:
I did take the contract and show it to my current boss and negotiated a higher rate for myself!
Always a good option!
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity RAH
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See how a verbal agreement works out for you when someone refuses to pay until you complete their understanding of what is contracted. I want it in writing.
Once you lose your pride the rest is easy. In the end, only three things matter: how much you loved, how gently you lived, and how gracefully you let go of things not meant for you. – Buddha Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
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I'm about to start new work. I specified that I wanted to keep ownership of software created on my own time (which hasn't been released yet but is making good progress) I have the work contract in front of me now and the following section leave me .. mmm.. unsure...
Intellectual Property Rights Any work or material created, discovered or improved by you during the course of your employment with the company which is capable of being protected by letters patent, design, registration copyright or any other form of protection will belong absolutely to the Company and you agree to execute any document required to give effect to this You agree to waive in favour if the Company, its licensees and successor in title and morals rights you may have in both existing and future works created by you in the course of your employments with the company. For avoidance of doubt, the company shall have no rights to any intellectual property developed by the employee prior to their employment with the company.
Now I wonder, what become of my (yet unreleased) home project in those condition? Should I simply released the unfinished version now and simply update it? How the prior development would be proved? Anyhow I won't start before 1 month so I can easily put out a simple installer and have an embryonic software and website ready...
All in one Menu-Ribbon Bar DirectX for WinRT/C# since 2013! Taking over the world since 1371!
I agree that what you quote is too vague. Here is a relevant snippet from one I signed for a contract: This is from an agency (Employer) that got me some work at a Client of theirs: " Employee agrees that any inventions (whether patentable or not), discoveries, creations (including programs, whether denominated software, firmware or otherwise), and improvements thereof, that Employee may develop or create or assist in developing or creating during employment, that are along the lines of the business, work or investigations of Employer, or that result from or are suggested by any work that Employee may do for or on behalf of Employer, shall be the sole and exclusive property of the Client. " (I added the underlining.) I thought I had others around, but I'm not finding them right now.
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JimmyRopes wrote:
It is a negotiation until you sign.
That's actually not true. The only reason you sign a contract is so that it is undeniable that you were aware of its contents; As soon as you have seen it you are bound by it unless you can show that negotiations are taking place. If you don't sign, but continue to work / get paid, then you are deemed to have agreed to the contract - unless you can show that it is still being negotiated. Of course, making modifications and then signing and returning to the employer puts the same conditions on them. In the real world, as opposed to a lawyers office, it's far easier just to ask the company to make the change / explain in writing!
PooperPig - Coming Soon
I think that you are confusing starting to work without having signed the contract (but "seeing" it) with not starting at all. If you never started to work and there's a contract saying something, it doesn't matter. You are not forced to work because you read a contract. That contract doesn't force you to do anything except, maybe, from deciding if you accept it or not. So, look the first message: "I'm about to start new work." That is, while the situation is still in "about to start" and no contract signed, it is in negotiation. The negotiation can very well end-up in nothing if they never agree.
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I agree that what you quote is too vague. Here is a relevant snippet from one I signed for a contract: This is from an agency (Employer) that got me some work at a Client of theirs: " Employee agrees that any inventions (whether patentable or not), discoveries, creations (including programs, whether denominated software, firmware or otherwise), and improvements thereof, that Employee may develop or create or assist in developing or creating during employment, that are along the lines of the business, work or investigations of Employer, or that result from or are suggested by any work that Employee may do for or on behalf of Employer, shall be the sole and exclusive property of the Client. " (I added the underlining.) I thought I had others around, but I'm not finding them right now.
Well, what I quoted was verbatim from the contract! At any rate 1. they are going to modify it for all developers! :D 2. QLD government has a nice and fair explanation of the meaning of the law!
All in one Menu-Ribbon Bar DirectX for WinRT/C# since 2013! Taking over the world since 1371!
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I think that you are confusing starting to work without having signed the contract (but "seeing" it) with not starting at all. If you never started to work and there's a contract saying something, it doesn't matter. You are not forced to work because you read a contract. That contract doesn't force you to do anything except, maybe, from deciding if you accept it or not. So, look the first message: "I'm about to start new work." That is, while the situation is still in "about to start" and no contract signed, it is in negotiation. The negotiation can very well end-up in nothing if they never agree.
Paulo Zemek wrote:
That is, while the situation is still in "about to start" and no contract signed, it is in negotiation. The negotiation can very well end-up in nothing if they never agree.
I'm not confused at all. Jimmy said "don't sign it" and I pointed out that whether he signs it or not, the clause will be in effect if he accepts the job and starts working. While the signature can be used to prove he read and agreed with the contract, simply not signing it means nothing if the OP actually starts work - because at that point, unless he can show he was negotiating some points, he could be deemed to have accepted the contract.
PooperPig - Coming Soon
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Isn't it you coming to work in Sunny Brisbane? Only I'm sure I recognise some of those words...
PooperPig - Coming Soon
Indeed I am! Only in one month though, working on said take over the world by storm in my spare time project right now! ;P
All in one Menu-Ribbon Bar DirectX for WinRT/C# since 2013! Taking over the world since 1371!
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Paulo Zemek wrote:
That is, while the situation is still in "about to start" and no contract signed, it is in negotiation. The negotiation can very well end-up in nothing if they never agree.
I'm not confused at all. Jimmy said "don't sign it" and I pointed out that whether he signs it or not, the clause will be in effect if he accepts the job and starts working. While the signature can be used to prove he read and agreed with the contract, simply not signing it means nothing if the OP actually starts work - because at that point, unless he can show he was negotiating some points, he could be deemed to have accepted the contract.
PooperPig - Coming Soon
I actually read this from Jimmy's post:
Change the contract to exclude work not pertaining to the company or industry the company is in. A lot of people do not know that you can alter the contract before signing. It is a negotiation until you sign.
So, as far as I understand, he never said that you can start working without signing and you are still able to negotiate. He is simply pointing out that, as long as you don't sign and don't start working, you are negotiating. I can see that he didn't said it directly, but it seems implicit that if we should only sign when (and if) terms are OK, it also means that we should not start before signing. It's like: Don't sign if the contract isn't OK. Don't start working if you don't have a signed contract. Having those assumed, saying: "You can negotiate until the contract is signed" is perfectly correct.
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Mycroft Holmes wrote:
I have never heard of anyone losing a gig for negotiating a contract,
I was once asked to sign a thick contract that included the stipulation that I was familiar with the Foreign Corrupt Policies act. I told them I wasn't familiar with that act and it should be removed...I couldn't sign it. They agreed and promised to remove it. They encouraged me to give notice at my current job. They sent me a new contract but there were no changes! So I never took the gig. I did take the contract and show it to my current boss and negotiated a higher rate for myself!
I was once asked to sign a contract that had 5 "phases" in it, obviously one bigger and more complex than the other. Verbally, I should only work on phase 1 and 2 and if everything was OK we will negotiate for the other phases. Yet the contract still showed me the 5 phases as an all or nothing situation. The only negotiation possible by the contract were the delivery times of the next phases. I asked them to change the contract. They did change the words in the contract, but all the problems were there. I said that I couldn't sign the contract and the guy told me that a contract is only a formality, that I shouldn't care about what it says. So I said that if it is a formality, we don't sign the contract at all. He could pay me and I will do the job. He didn't accept that, but he insisted that I should sign the contract. He said that he needed the contract to be signed that day, that I should sign it to avoid losing the chance of doing that job and later they would fix the details. Well, I lost the chance of working on that "amazing" contract.
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I actually read this from Jimmy's post:
Change the contract to exclude work not pertaining to the company or industry the company is in. A lot of people do not know that you can alter the contract before signing. It is a negotiation until you sign.
So, as far as I understand, he never said that you can start working without signing and you are still able to negotiate. He is simply pointing out that, as long as you don't sign and don't start working, you are negotiating. I can see that he didn't said it directly, but it seems implicit that if we should only sign when (and if) terms are OK, it also means that we should not start before signing. It's like: Don't sign if the contract isn't OK. Don't start working if you don't have a signed contract. Having those assumed, saying: "You can negotiate until the contract is signed" is perfectly correct.
Well, at one point I said
Quote:
any agreement between two people, whether verbally, in writing or dripped in morse code in blood, is enforceable as a contractual agreement; the reason for signatures is merely obtaining proof that both parties have the same understanding.
And Jimmy said
Quote:
bollocks
So any misunderstanding about whether his earlier posts meant "don't sign and don't start" or just "don't sign" are rather moot?
PooperPig - Coming Soon
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Well, at one point I said
Quote:
any agreement between two people, whether verbally, in writing or dripped in morse code in blood, is enforceable as a contractual agreement; the reason for signatures is merely obtaining proof that both parties have the same understanding.
And Jimmy said
Quote:
bollocks
So any misunderstanding about whether his earlier posts meant "don't sign and don't start" or just "don't sign" are rather moot?
PooperPig - Coming Soon
_Maxxx_ wrote:
So any misunderstanding about whether his earlier posts meant "don't sign and don't start" or just "don't sign and don't start" are rather moot?
FTFY :doh: I'm sure what you learned in business school was the letter of the law. If you want to make some liar lawyer a good amount of money then make oral agreements for the work you do.
Once you lose your pride the rest is easy. In the end, only three things matter: how much you loved, how gently you lived, and how gracefully you let go of things not meant for you. – Buddha Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
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_Maxxx_ wrote:
So any misunderstanding about whether his earlier posts meant "don't sign and don't start" or just "don't sign and don't start" are rather moot?
FTFY :doh: I'm sure what you learned in business school was the letter of the law. If you want to make some liar lawyer a good amount of money then make oral agreements for the work you do.
Once you lose your pride the rest is easy. In the end, only three things matter: how much you loved, how gently you lived, and how gracefully you let go of things not meant for you. – Buddha Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
JimmyRopes wrote:
I'm sure what you learned in business school was the letter of the law.
Sorry - I didn't know that's what "bollocks" meant!
JimmyRopes wrote:
If you want to make some liar lawyer a good amount of money then make oral agreements for the work you do.
I wouldn't dream of starting employment without a contract that I agreed with and had signed, and had counter signed by a company representative. You seem to be getting your knickers in a twist because you made an inaccurate statement
Quote:
It is a negotiation until you sign.
that I pointed out. that statement was incorrect or, at the very least, incomplete. Get over it.
PooperPig - Coming Soon
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JimmyRopes wrote:
I'm sure what you learned in business school was the letter of the law.
Sorry - I didn't know that's what "bollocks" meant!
JimmyRopes wrote:
If you want to make some liar lawyer a good amount of money then make oral agreements for the work you do.
I wouldn't dream of starting employment without a contract that I agreed with and had signed, and had counter signed by a company representative. You seem to be getting your knickers in a twist because you made an inaccurate statement
Quote:
It is a negotiation until you sign.
that I pointed out. that statement was incorrect or, at the very least, incomplete. Get over it.
PooperPig - Coming Soon
Said like a true liar lawyer.
_Maxxx_ wrote:
You seem to be getting your knickers in a twist because you made an inaccurate statement
Quote:
It is a negotiation until you sign.
that I pointed out. that statement was incorrect or, at the very least, incomplete.
No my knickers are not in a twist. Maybe I did leave it as an incomplete statement and yes there are liars lawyers that can argue the letter of the law, at a hefty fee. All I was trying to say is that he should not sign a contract that include clauses that are not in his best interest. I would in no way encourage him to start work without signing a contract. Until he does it is still a negotiation provided he does not start a working relationship with the other party. <editorial comment> Emphasis added to clarify my intent for those who need clarification before doing something that can come back to bite them in the ass. </editorial comment>
Once you lose your pride the rest is easy. In the end, only three things matter: how much you loved, how gently you lived, and how gracefully you let go of things not meant for you. – Buddha Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
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I was once asked to sign a contract that had 5 "phases" in it, obviously one bigger and more complex than the other. Verbally, I should only work on phase 1 and 2 and if everything was OK we will negotiate for the other phases. Yet the contract still showed me the 5 phases as an all or nothing situation. The only negotiation possible by the contract were the delivery times of the next phases. I asked them to change the contract. They did change the words in the contract, but all the problems were there. I said that I couldn't sign the contract and the guy told me that a contract is only a formality, that I shouldn't care about what it says. So I said that if it is a formality, we don't sign the contract at all. He could pay me and I will do the job. He didn't accept that, but he insisted that I should sign the contract. He said that he needed the contract to be signed that day, that I should sign it to avoid losing the chance of doing that job and later they would fix the details. Well, I lost the chance of working on that "amazing" contract.
Paulo Zemek wrote:
told me that a contract is only a formality
I was told exactly that about a contract similar to the OP's (i.e. they owned by soul for the duration of my employment) I suggested that, as it was only a formality, then simply removing that clause wouldn't make any difference. Their lawyer told them not to take it out, as others had signed it and they didn't want to have different sets of contracts (or some such rubbish) - so eventually the MD wrote me a letter confirming that any work I did on non-competitive products, outside of office hours, using my own equipment, while not on the company premises etc. etc. would not be claimed by the company. The copy of the contract I signed had a note hand-written and dated referring to the letter! Sometimes it's just too hard! (although it was a great job!)
PooperPig - Coming Soon
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I'm about to start new work. I specified that I wanted to keep ownership of software created on my own time (which hasn't been released yet but is making good progress) I have the work contract in front of me now and the following section leave me .. mmm.. unsure...
Intellectual Property Rights Any work or material created, discovered or improved by you during the course of your employment with the company which is capable of being protected by letters patent, design, registration copyright or any other form of protection will belong absolutely to the Company and you agree to execute any document required to give effect to this You agree to waive in favour if the Company, its licensees and successor in title and morals rights you may have in both existing and future works created by you in the course of your employments with the company. For avoidance of doubt, the company shall have no rights to any intellectual property developed by the employee prior to their employment with the company.
Now I wonder, what become of my (yet unreleased) home project in those condition? Should I simply released the unfinished version now and simply update it? How the prior development would be proved? Anyhow I won't start before 1 month so I can easily put out a simple installer and have an embryonic software and website ready...
All in one Menu-Ribbon Bar DirectX for WinRT/C# since 2013! Taking over the world since 1371!
This is always a tricky one. We all want to retain our personal IP, but on the other hand the company does not want you having a great idea while doing their work and then going home and developing that for ourselves. This is a pretty standard clause in my part of the world, by the way One company I worked for changed ownership and the new owners wanted this clause almost exactly as in yours. I started to discuss with them and found they were closed on the matter. Then I found that a number of others also were unhappy about it, so as a group we expressed our views. We had the wording changed that all personal IP prior to that date was ours, along with all IP for applications not related to the companies products. But it gets tricky if your product is along the same lines as theirs. In that instance, who is to say if a good idea you have is for your product or as a result of work? Do you know any others at this company? Do they also have this clause? Is the company actually open to you doing your own products? Usually, I have found that being up front and open with employers, there will be a way to come to a compromise as long as they are reasonable. If they are not, then maybe you need to ask if you really want to work there. Good luck.
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Whenever I have had clauses like that in a contract I have simply asked the question. Usually they say "Oh, no, that's just if you do something at work - outside work doesn't count!" At which point I ask them to change the contract and/or confirm that in writing.
.\\axxx
If your product is unrelated to the company's business, how can they claim ownership? Maybe you should get a written clarification from someone who is authorised to issue one.
I may not last forever but the mess I leave behind certainly will.
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I'm about to start new work. I specified that I wanted to keep ownership of software created on my own time (which hasn't been released yet but is making good progress) I have the work contract in front of me now and the following section leave me .. mmm.. unsure...
Intellectual Property Rights Any work or material created, discovered or improved by you during the course of your employment with the company which is capable of being protected by letters patent, design, registration copyright or any other form of protection will belong absolutely to the Company and you agree to execute any document required to give effect to this You agree to waive in favour if the Company, its licensees and successor in title and morals rights you may have in both existing and future works created by you in the course of your employments with the company. For avoidance of doubt, the company shall have no rights to any intellectual property developed by the employee prior to their employment with the company.
Now I wonder, what become of my (yet unreleased) home project in those condition? Should I simply released the unfinished version now and simply update it? How the prior development would be proved? Anyhow I won't start before 1 month so I can easily put out a simple installer and have an embryonic software and website ready...
All in one Menu-Ribbon Bar DirectX for WinRT/C# since 2013! Taking over the world since 1371!
You absolutely must modify this before employment or you will run into problems later down the line if you want to sell your own software. As you can see there is a clause that states the company has no rights to anything you developed before employment. At the minimum, you should write out a description of what you are working on and have developed on your own time and include that in the contract. Make an addendum that clearly states that you aren't giving up rights to what you have already started, and what you plan on continuing to work on in your own time. It is important to get that approved up front.