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Apparently the customer knows best...

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  • Sander RosselS Sander Rossel

    I've been thinking exactly that. I'm guessing that he has about 15 years more experience than me though :laugh:

    Visit my blog at Sander's bits - Writing the code you need. Or read my articles at my CodeProject profile.

    Simplicity is prerequisite for reliability. — Edsger W. Dijkstra

    Regards, Sander

    L Offline
    L Offline
    Lost User
    wrote on last edited by
    #14

    Ask yourself why he needs you if he has so much experience. I would be inclined to call his bluff, and tell him your estimate stands. Then he has the choice, accept your estimate and pay, or do it himself. Unless, of course, you really need the money.

    Sander RosselS 1 Reply Last reply
    0
    • L Lost User

      Ask yourself why he needs you if he has so much experience. I would be inclined to call his bluff, and tell him your estimate stands. Then he has the choice, accept your estimate and pay, or do it himself. Unless, of course, you really need the money.

      Sander RosselS Offline
      Sander RosselS Offline
      Sander Rossel
      wrote on last edited by
      #15

      Richard MacCutchan wrote:

      Unless, of course, you really need the money.

      It's really a customer of my employer, so I'm getting paid either way :D Anyway, I'm just taking the time I need (which is three to four days) and my employer backs me up on this, so no problem :thumbsup: And no further complaints from the customer either :)

      Visit my blog at Sander's bits - Writing the code you need. Or read my articles at my CodeProject profile.

      Simplicity is prerequisite for reliability. — Edsger W. Dijkstra

      Regards, Sander

      1 Reply Last reply
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      • L Lost User

        Sander Rossel wrote:

        A non-developer bluffing to an experienced developer about the time something should take... :doh:

        They're called "salesmen", "manager" or "CEO".

        Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^][](X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett)

        Sander RosselS Offline
        Sander RosselS Offline
        Sander Rossel
        wrote on last edited by
        #16

        I've heard epic tales of their ignorance, yet now I've met one myself I'm still surprised :doh:

        Visit my blog at Sander's bits - Writing the code you need. Or read my articles at my CodeProject profile.

        Simplicity is prerequisite for reliability. — Edsger W. Dijkstra

        Regards, Sander

        M S 2 Replies Last reply
        0
        • Sander RosselS Sander Rossel

          So I have to make a little something for a customer. Basically they want to name a stored procedure and all of its parameters in the database after which a user can select a procedure in the application, fill in values for the parameters and have the data shown in a grid. So we have dynamic types (for parameters) with dynamic default values, dynamic forms, dynamic results, etc. Still, no problem. So I gave a estimate of three to four days for the entire thing. I get an email from the customer asking me to explain why it would take so long. His experience taught him it would take two days max. So I explained I need to have a little room for issues (I'm working in the customer's software, with third party tools, that aren't completely known to me), that I need to test, and that working with all that dynamic data can be tricky. I get another email back "In my experience working on this kind of solution isn't tricky at all!" So why have me do it then? :doh: I already ran into an issue and his proposed solution wasn't going to work. That's half a day on 'issues' already! :laugh:

          Visit my blog at Sander's bits - Writing the code you need. Or read my articles at my CodeProject profile.

          Simplicity is prerequisite for reliability. — Edsger W. Dijkstra

          Regards, Sander

          Mike HankeyM Offline
          Mike HankeyM Offline
          Mike Hankey
          wrote on last edited by
          #17

          Sounds like the biggest issue is going to be the customer.

          Sander Rossel wrote:

          So why have me do it then?

          Exactly if he has the experience!

          New version: WinHeist Version 2.1.1 new web site. When you are dead you don't know it, it's only difficult for others. It's the same when you're stupid.

          1 Reply Last reply
          0
          • Sander RosselS Sander Rossel

            So I have to make a little something for a customer. Basically they want to name a stored procedure and all of its parameters in the database after which a user can select a procedure in the application, fill in values for the parameters and have the data shown in a grid. So we have dynamic types (for parameters) with dynamic default values, dynamic forms, dynamic results, etc. Still, no problem. So I gave a estimate of three to four days for the entire thing. I get an email from the customer asking me to explain why it would take so long. His experience taught him it would take two days max. So I explained I need to have a little room for issues (I'm working in the customer's software, with third party tools, that aren't completely known to me), that I need to test, and that working with all that dynamic data can be tricky. I get another email back "In my experience working on this kind of solution isn't tricky at all!" So why have me do it then? :doh: I already ran into an issue and his proposed solution wasn't going to work. That's half a day on 'issues' already! :laugh:

            Visit my blog at Sander's bits - Writing the code you need. Or read my articles at my CodeProject profile.

            Simplicity is prerequisite for reliability. — Edsger W. Dijkstra

            Regards, Sander

            F Offline
            F Offline
            Forogar
            wrote on last edited by
            #18

            Is his name "Jeff"? I worked for a Jeff once that said things like that all the time. He had once written some software in COBOL which apparently showed him that he was an expert programmer and all things were easy. This is why he always thought software developers were obviously overpaid and were constantly lying to him about how long things would take.

            - I would love to change the world, but they won’t give me the source code.

            Sander RosselS S A 3 Replies Last reply
            0
            • F Forogar

              Is his name "Jeff"? I worked for a Jeff once that said things like that all the time. He had once written some software in COBOL which apparently showed him that he was an expert programmer and all things were easy. This is why he always thought software developers were obviously overpaid and were constantly lying to him about how long things would take.

              - I would love to change the world, but they won’t give me the source code.

              Sander RosselS Offline
              Sander RosselS Offline
              Sander Rossel
              wrote on last edited by
              #19

              No, his name isn't Jeff :laugh:

              Visit my blog at Sander's bits - Writing the code you need. Or read my articles at my CodeProject profile.

              Simplicity is prerequisite for reliability. — Edsger W. Dijkstra

              Regards, Sander

              1 Reply Last reply
              0
              • Sander RosselS Sander Rossel

                I've heard epic tales of their ignorance, yet now I've met one myself I'm still surprised :doh:

                Visit my blog at Sander's bits - Writing the code you need. Or read my articles at my CodeProject profile.

                Simplicity is prerequisite for reliability. — Edsger W. Dijkstra

                Regards, Sander

                M Offline
                M Offline
                Mycroft Holmes
                wrote on last edited by
                #20

                But... I get this sort of shit all the time, a manager who used to be a developer 25 years ago, in VB, concludes a meeting by saying, oh that should take about x days/weeks/months so I want it delivered in x-10%. 3 days later will also give you another project to complete in parallel, no change to the deadline!.

                Never underestimate the power of human stupidity RAH

                Sander RosselS 1 Reply Last reply
                0
                • Sander RosselS Sander Rossel

                  Sounds like a Dilbert thing :laugh:

                  Visit my blog at Sander's bits - Writing the code you need. Or read my articles at my CodeProject profile.

                  Simplicity is prerequisite for reliability. — Edsger W. Dijkstra

                  Regards, Sander

                  S Offline
                  S Offline
                  Stefan_Lang
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #21

                  There is indeed a comic about just that, but I can't seem to find it. Take this instead: http://dilbert.com/strip/2013-10-19[^] ;)

                  GOTOs are a bit like wire coat hangers: they tend to breed in the darkness, such that where there once were few, eventually there are many, and the program's architecture collapses beneath them. (Fran Poretto)

                  1 Reply Last reply
                  0
                  • Sander RosselS Sander Rossel

                    I've heard epic tales of their ignorance, yet now I've met one myself I'm still surprised :doh:

                    Visit my blog at Sander's bits - Writing the code you need. Or read my articles at my CodeProject profile.

                    Simplicity is prerequisite for reliability. — Edsger W. Dijkstra

                    Regards, Sander

                    S Offline
                    S Offline
                    Stefan_Lang
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #22

                    You do know how they get salesmen? http://dilbert.com/strip/2006-07-29[^] ;P

                    GOTOs are a bit like wire coat hangers: they tend to breed in the darkness, such that where there once were few, eventually there are many, and the program's architecture collapses beneath them. (Fran Poretto)

                    Sander RosselS 1 Reply Last reply
                    0
                    • F Forogar

                      Is his name "Jeff"? I worked for a Jeff once that said things like that all the time. He had once written some software in COBOL which apparently showed him that he was an expert programmer and all things were easy. This is why he always thought software developers were obviously overpaid and were constantly lying to him about how long things would take.

                      - I would love to change the world, but they won’t give me the source code.

                      S Offline
                      S Offline
                      Stefan_Lang
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #23

                      People lying is a reasonable expectation. Just think about it: http://dilbert.com/strip/2011-02-20[^]:cool:

                      GOTOs are a bit like wire coat hangers: they tend to breed in the darkness, such that where there once were few, eventually there are many, and the program's architecture collapses beneath them. (Fran Poretto)

                      1 Reply Last reply
                      0
                      • S Stefan_Lang

                        You do know how they get salesmen? http://dilbert.com/strip/2006-07-29[^] ;P

                        GOTOs are a bit like wire coat hangers: they tend to breed in the darkness, such that where there once were few, eventually there are many, and the program's architecture collapses beneath them. (Fran Poretto)

                        Sander RosselS Offline
                        Sander RosselS Offline
                        Sander Rossel
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #24

                        :laugh:

                        Visit my blog at Sander's bits - Writing the code you need. Or read my articles at my CodeProject profile.

                        Simplicity is prerequisite for reliability. — Edsger W. Dijkstra

                        Regards, Sander

                        1 Reply Last reply
                        0
                        • M Mycroft Holmes

                          But... I get this sort of shit all the time, a manager who used to be a developer 25 years ago, in VB, concludes a meeting by saying, oh that should take about x days/weeks/months so I want it delivered in x-10%. 3 days later will also give you another project to complete in parallel, no change to the deadline!.

                          Never underestimate the power of human stupidity RAH

                          Sander RosselS Offline
                          Sander RosselS Offline
                          Sander Rossel
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #25

                          It's absurd that logic and reasoning seem to be the opposite of one's power... :doh:

                          Visit my blog at Sander's bits - Writing the code you need. Or read my articles at my CodeProject profile.

                          Simplicity is prerequisite for reliability. — Edsger W. Dijkstra

                          Regards, Sander

                          M 1 Reply Last reply
                          0
                          • Sander RosselS Sander Rossel

                            It's absurd that logic and reasoning seem to be the opposite of one's power... :doh:

                            Visit my blog at Sander's bits - Writing the code you need. Or read my articles at my CodeProject profile.

                            Simplicity is prerequisite for reliability. — Edsger W. Dijkstra

                            Regards, Sander

                            M Offline
                            M Offline
                            Mycroft Holmes
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #26

                            Actually said manager is brilliant, just not at estimating development resources, or managing minions. He manages senior management rather well!

                            Never underestimate the power of human stupidity RAH

                            1 Reply Last reply
                            0
                            • Sander RosselS Sander Rossel

                              Sounds like a Dilbert thing :laugh:

                              Visit my blog at Sander's bits - Writing the code you need. Or read my articles at my CodeProject profile.

                              Simplicity is prerequisite for reliability. — Edsger W. Dijkstra

                              Regards, Sander

                              O Offline
                              O Offline
                              Orlin Georgiev
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #27

                              Yes, that's from Dilbert

                              1 Reply Last reply
                              0
                              • Sander RosselS Sander Rossel

                                So I have to make a little something for a customer. Basically they want to name a stored procedure and all of its parameters in the database after which a user can select a procedure in the application, fill in values for the parameters and have the data shown in a grid. So we have dynamic types (for parameters) with dynamic default values, dynamic forms, dynamic results, etc. Still, no problem. So I gave a estimate of three to four days for the entire thing. I get an email from the customer asking me to explain why it would take so long. His experience taught him it would take two days max. So I explained I need to have a little room for issues (I'm working in the customer's software, with third party tools, that aren't completely known to me), that I need to test, and that working with all that dynamic data can be tricky. I get another email back "In my experience working on this kind of solution isn't tricky at all!" So why have me do it then? :doh: I already ran into an issue and his proposed solution wasn't going to work. That's half a day on 'issues' already! :laugh:

                                Visit my blog at Sander's bits - Writing the code you need. Or read my articles at my CodeProject profile.

                                Simplicity is prerequisite for reliability. — Edsger W. Dijkstra

                                Regards, Sander

                                M Offline
                                M Offline
                                MikeD 2
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #28

                                I once helped staff an industry specific software presentation where loads of people were invited to come along for demonstrations cake and coffee I had one potential who, for every aspect of the software I demonstrated, told me that his existing self made solution was faster, better, wider and cheaper. I took this for a while and then stood up, handed him back his business card, and told him that we couldn't help him. He seemed shocked and I know everyone else in the room was as well but you just cannot help some people It depends on how confident you are in your own abilities and how desperate you are for the work. That was about 30 years ago and I am still working in the same market place today and also still have some of the same clients that became customers around that time (I would love to have said that particular demo day but cannot remember for sure)

                                Sander RosselS 1 Reply Last reply
                                0
                                • Sander RosselS Sander Rossel

                                  So I have to make a little something for a customer. Basically they want to name a stored procedure and all of its parameters in the database after which a user can select a procedure in the application, fill in values for the parameters and have the data shown in a grid. So we have dynamic types (for parameters) with dynamic default values, dynamic forms, dynamic results, etc. Still, no problem. So I gave a estimate of three to four days for the entire thing. I get an email from the customer asking me to explain why it would take so long. His experience taught him it would take two days max. So I explained I need to have a little room for issues (I'm working in the customer's software, with third party tools, that aren't completely known to me), that I need to test, and that working with all that dynamic data can be tricky. I get another email back "In my experience working on this kind of solution isn't tricky at all!" So why have me do it then? :doh: I already ran into an issue and his proposed solution wasn't going to work. That's half a day on 'issues' already! :laugh:

                                  Visit my blog at Sander's bits - Writing the code you need. Or read my articles at my CodeProject profile.

                                  Simplicity is prerequisite for reliability. — Edsger W. Dijkstra

                                  Regards, Sander

                                  M Offline
                                  M Offline
                                  MikeTheFid
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #29

                                  "Good, Quick, Cheap. Pick any two." Said with a smile, it can be tactfully delivered. Doesn't work worth a damn in an email or text. :)

                                  Cheers, Mike Fidler "I intend to live forever - so far, so good." Steven Wright "I almost had a psychic girlfriend but she left me before we met." Also Steven Wright

                                  1 Reply Last reply
                                  0
                                  • F Forogar

                                    Is his name "Jeff"? I worked for a Jeff once that said things like that all the time. He had once written some software in COBOL which apparently showed him that he was an expert programmer and all things were easy. This is why he always thought software developers were obviously overpaid and were constantly lying to him about how long things would take.

                                    - I would love to change the world, but they won’t give me the source code.

                                    A Offline
                                    A Offline
                                    Alister Morton
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #30

                                    Funny you mention that - I had a spookily similar experience with a Geoff except in his case he'd written an application in MS basic so this made him an expert in high performance comms (serial data at 4800 baud) and real time programming (displaying said data on the screen, picking a colour at random for each new data item).

                                    1 Reply Last reply
                                    0
                                    • M MikeD 2

                                      I once helped staff an industry specific software presentation where loads of people were invited to come along for demonstrations cake and coffee I had one potential who, for every aspect of the software I demonstrated, told me that his existing self made solution was faster, better, wider and cheaper. I took this for a while and then stood up, handed him back his business card, and told him that we couldn't help him. He seemed shocked and I know everyone else in the room was as well but you just cannot help some people It depends on how confident you are in your own abilities and how desperate you are for the work. That was about 30 years ago and I am still working in the same market place today and also still have some of the same clients that became customers around that time (I would love to have said that particular demo day but cannot remember for sure)

                                      Sander RosselS Offline
                                      Sander RosselS Offline
                                      Sander Rossel
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #31

                                      That's awesome. You weren't rude or anything and just told him the truth. Probably everyone in the room, including that guy, thought the same :thumbsup:

                                      Visit my blog at Sander's bits - Writing the code you need. Or read my articles at my CodeProject profile.

                                      Simplicity is prerequisite for reliability. — Edsger W. Dijkstra

                                      Regards, Sander

                                      1 Reply Last reply
                                      0
                                      • Sander RosselS Sander Rossel

                                        So I have to make a little something for a customer. Basically they want to name a stored procedure and all of its parameters in the database after which a user can select a procedure in the application, fill in values for the parameters and have the data shown in a grid. So we have dynamic types (for parameters) with dynamic default values, dynamic forms, dynamic results, etc. Still, no problem. So I gave a estimate of three to four days for the entire thing. I get an email from the customer asking me to explain why it would take so long. His experience taught him it would take two days max. So I explained I need to have a little room for issues (I'm working in the customer's software, with third party tools, that aren't completely known to me), that I need to test, and that working with all that dynamic data can be tricky. I get another email back "In my experience working on this kind of solution isn't tricky at all!" So why have me do it then? :doh: I already ran into an issue and his proposed solution wasn't going to work. That's half a day on 'issues' already! :laugh:

                                        Visit my blog at Sander's bits - Writing the code you need. Or read my articles at my CodeProject profile.

                                        Simplicity is prerequisite for reliability. — Edsger W. Dijkstra

                                        Regards, Sander

                                        K Offline
                                        K Offline
                                        Kirk Wood
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #32

                                        Seems you have a choice to make. If you find yourself with enough work, simply stand by your estimate and let them either agree or go elsewhere. If you are short enough you are willing to risk being wrong then accept the counter offer.

                                        1 Reply Last reply
                                        0
                                        • Sander RosselS Sander Rossel

                                          So I have to make a little something for a customer. Basically they want to name a stored procedure and all of its parameters in the database after which a user can select a procedure in the application, fill in values for the parameters and have the data shown in a grid. So we have dynamic types (for parameters) with dynamic default values, dynamic forms, dynamic results, etc. Still, no problem. So I gave a estimate of three to four days for the entire thing. I get an email from the customer asking me to explain why it would take so long. His experience taught him it would take two days max. So I explained I need to have a little room for issues (I'm working in the customer's software, with third party tools, that aren't completely known to me), that I need to test, and that working with all that dynamic data can be tricky. I get another email back "In my experience working on this kind of solution isn't tricky at all!" So why have me do it then? :doh: I already ran into an issue and his proposed solution wasn't going to work. That's half a day on 'issues' already! :laugh:

                                          Visit my blog at Sander's bits - Writing the code you need. Or read my articles at my CodeProject profile.

                                          Simplicity is prerequisite for reliability. — Edsger W. Dijkstra

                                          Regards, Sander

                                          R Offline
                                          R Offline
                                          Robert g Blair
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #33

                                          Way back (in 1996) I was the new guy in a software shop. Graeme, one of the Directors, said "Robert, we have great new project for you to lead. Visual Basic, right up your alley, large budget, big multinational. The deal is all signed - fixed price contract. Dave will tell you all about it." Dave, apparently, came up with the fixed price quote. The fixed price covered about 6 man-months at the then rate for developers. Dave showed me his spec document, about 70 pages. It appeared to be a series of style notes for Win Forms. After listening to Dave for a while I said: "Dave - how many input forms are there in this system?". "I don't know", says Dave, "you can figure that out when you design the system.". "Dave, how did you come up with a fixed price for this system if you don't know what it does?". "Oh", says Dave, smiling. "It doesn't really matter. We've got a huge budget, AND ... it's going to be written in VB which is really fast and easy!". At this point I was thinking to myself: "Dave must be a total VB hacker with no real world smarts. I need to let him know that what seems really easy for him may not be for ordinary folk". "So Dave", I said, "how much VB have you done?". "Oh", says Dave, "none at all. But I've heard that it's really easy". And yes, I did quit that company not long after ...

                                          Sander RosselS 1 Reply Last reply
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