Time dilation example
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Speaking from the heights of my B.Sc. in Physics :) :) :) The description of the clocks' behaviour is accurate, but exaggerated; the effects of orbiting the Earth are much smaller than indicated. I would further nit-pick that the two observers on the Earth do not share a clock - they are moving at different velocities because one is closer to the Earth's axis than the other, and because they are not at the same longitude. A simple example of space-time dilation due to Special Relativity may be seen in the Michelson-Morley experiment, [^] which may be performed with an interferometer. The "problem" is that you would only see something if space-time dilation does not occur. Gravitational Space-Time dilation is a little more difficult to demonstrate; the best demonstrations are astronomical. IIRC, there is a demonstration of gravitational red shift using the Mossbauer Effect, but I forget the details.
If you have an important point to make, don't try to be subtle or clever. Use a pile driver. Hit the point once. Then come back and hit it again. Then hit it a third time - a tremendous whack. --Winston Churchill
The record holder in time travel by time travel time dilation, as far as I know, is still the Russian who was stuck on the space station Mir 25 years ago when the Soviet Union came to an end and they took their time to get him down. He gained something like half a second total.
The language is JavaScript. that of Mordor, which I will not utter here
This is Javascript. If you put big wheels and a racing stripe on a golf cart, it's still a fucking golf cart.
"I don't know, extraterrestrial?" "You mean like from space?" "No, from Canada." If software development were a circus, we would all be the clowns. -
What helped me understand time dilation, not that I 'understand' it, was the explanation of how the speed of light is constant within a reference point. In order to maintain this constant speed of light, time dilation takes place. So for a person travelling in a car, at 50 mph, for their reference point the light coming out of the headlamps is not the speed of light +50mph but the speed of light(i.e. if they measured the speed of the light coming out of their headlamps) as their time dilates due to the 50mph speed their car is travelling at. Now it gets more interesting when two cars are moving towards each other with a closing speed of 100mph - the light from the opposite car is still perceived as travelling at the speed of light and not the speed of light +50mph(the light speed measuring car's 50mph having been explained in the previous paragraph). If someone can explain how time dilation works in this context that would be great :)
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”
― Christopher Hitchens
As far as I understood, space is bent stronger around a fast object (or a large mass, which is essentially the same due to E = mc^2). The light has to travel a longer distance through the curvature.
The language is JavaScript. that of Mordor, which I will not utter here
This is Javascript. If you put big wheels and a racing stripe on a golf cart, it's still a fucking golf cart.
"I don't know, extraterrestrial?" "You mean like from space?" "No, from Canada." If software development were a circus, we would all be the clowns. -
As far as I understood, space is bent stronger around a fast object (or a large mass, which is essentially the same due to E = mc^2). The light has to travel a longer distance through the curvature.
The language is JavaScript. that of Mordor, which I will not utter here
This is Javascript. If you put big wheels and a racing stripe on a golf cart, it's still a fucking golf cart.
"I don't know, extraterrestrial?" "You mean like from space?" "No, from Canada." If software development were a circus, we would all be the clowns.You are confusing gravitational lensing (an effect due to General Relativity) with time dilation (and effect due to Special Relativity). The essential difference between Special and General Relativity is that Special Relativity ignores gravity and only gives a partial treatment of acceleration, while General Relativity assumes that as we cannot tell the difference between gravity and acceleration, they should be treated as equivalent. All manner of problems are solved (and created) by this assumption...
If you have an important point to make, don't try to be subtle or clever. Use a pile driver. Hit the point once. Then come back and hit it again. Then hit it a third time - a tremendous whack. --Winston Churchill
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In accordance with lounge rules "discussing anything in a software developer's life that takes your fancy except programming questions", here's a request for feedback on a time dilation example - The movie Interstellar includes examples of time dilation. My objective is to be able to provide a simple explanation and example of time dilation. Is my link below a good time dilation example or does it require correction or more clarification? http://www.oproot.com/a/nav/if/time-dilation.html[^] To access via mobile device, go to oproot.com > experiments > time dilation example Position and time were once thought to be absolute. Newton's laws of motion discredit absolute position in space. Einstein's theory of relativity discredits absolute time. The time dilation effect comes from the nature of spacetime. Time and space are now seen as dynamic quantities with each individual particle, or planet, having its own unique measure of time depending on where and how each is moving. - The Illustrated A Brief History of Time, Stephen Hawking, Page 45 In the example link, there are 4 observers with 4 synchronized clocks. 2 observers are on the surface of the earth. 1 observer is in space above the earth. 1 observer has returned from a high-speed space mission. When regrouping the clocks are different - Observer 1 surface clock is 12:25. (O1) Observer 2 surface clock is 12:25. (O2) Astronaut 1 clock is 12:28. (A1) Astronaut 2 clock is 12:21. (A2) Extra credit question - Are there any science experiment ideas (on a budget) that can be performed to demonstrate time dilation?
Sorry. No time.
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In accordance with lounge rules "discussing anything in a software developer's life that takes your fancy except programming questions", here's a request for feedback on a time dilation example - The movie Interstellar includes examples of time dilation. My objective is to be able to provide a simple explanation and example of time dilation. Is my link below a good time dilation example or does it require correction or more clarification? http://www.oproot.com/a/nav/if/time-dilation.html[^] To access via mobile device, go to oproot.com > experiments > time dilation example Position and time were once thought to be absolute. Newton's laws of motion discredit absolute position in space. Einstein's theory of relativity discredits absolute time. The time dilation effect comes from the nature of spacetime. Time and space are now seen as dynamic quantities with each individual particle, or planet, having its own unique measure of time depending on where and how each is moving. - The Illustrated A Brief History of Time, Stephen Hawking, Page 45 In the example link, there are 4 observers with 4 synchronized clocks. 2 observers are on the surface of the earth. 1 observer is in space above the earth. 1 observer has returned from a high-speed space mission. When regrouping the clocks are different - Observer 1 surface clock is 12:25. (O1) Observer 2 surface clock is 12:25. (O2) Astronaut 1 clock is 12:28. (A1) Astronaut 2 clock is 12:21. (A2) Extra credit question - Are there any science experiment ideas (on a budget) that can be performed to demonstrate time dilation?
I feel you would be better off concentrating on one effect at a time, and first discuss the effects of speed/acceleration, then maybe adding in gravity. Einstein once said (supposedly) 'moving clocks run slow' - this doesn't explain anything, but confirms what needs explaining.
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In accordance with lounge rules "discussing anything in a software developer's life that takes your fancy except programming questions", here's a request for feedback on a time dilation example - The movie Interstellar includes examples of time dilation. My objective is to be able to provide a simple explanation and example of time dilation. Is my link below a good time dilation example or does it require correction or more clarification? http://www.oproot.com/a/nav/if/time-dilation.html[^] To access via mobile device, go to oproot.com > experiments > time dilation example Position and time were once thought to be absolute. Newton's laws of motion discredit absolute position in space. Einstein's theory of relativity discredits absolute time. The time dilation effect comes from the nature of spacetime. Time and space are now seen as dynamic quantities with each individual particle, or planet, having its own unique measure of time depending on where and how each is moving. - The Illustrated A Brief History of Time, Stephen Hawking, Page 45 In the example link, there are 4 observers with 4 synchronized clocks. 2 observers are on the surface of the earth. 1 observer is in space above the earth. 1 observer has returned from a high-speed space mission. When regrouping the clocks are different - Observer 1 surface clock is 12:25. (O1) Observer 2 surface clock is 12:25. (O2) Astronaut 1 clock is 12:28. (A1) Astronaut 2 clock is 12:21. (A2) Extra credit question - Are there any science experiment ideas (on a budget) that can be performed to demonstrate time dilation?
I'm sorry but... The only thing I can say for sure about the movie "Interstellar" and time (dilated or otherwise) is that it was a complete waste of mine :sigh:
Sometimes, it just is, OK!
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In accordance with lounge rules "discussing anything in a software developer's life that takes your fancy except programming questions", here's a request for feedback on a time dilation example - The movie Interstellar includes examples of time dilation. My objective is to be able to provide a simple explanation and example of time dilation. Is my link below a good time dilation example or does it require correction or more clarification? http://www.oproot.com/a/nav/if/time-dilation.html[^] To access via mobile device, go to oproot.com > experiments > time dilation example Position and time were once thought to be absolute. Newton's laws of motion discredit absolute position in space. Einstein's theory of relativity discredits absolute time. The time dilation effect comes from the nature of spacetime. Time and space are now seen as dynamic quantities with each individual particle, or planet, having its own unique measure of time depending on where and how each is moving. - The Illustrated A Brief History of Time, Stephen Hawking, Page 45 In the example link, there are 4 observers with 4 synchronized clocks. 2 observers are on the surface of the earth. 1 observer is in space above the earth. 1 observer has returned from a high-speed space mission. When regrouping the clocks are different - Observer 1 surface clock is 12:25. (O1) Observer 2 surface clock is 12:25. (O2) Astronaut 1 clock is 12:28. (A1) Astronaut 2 clock is 12:21. (A2) Extra credit question - Are there any science experiment ideas (on a budget) that can be performed to demonstrate time dilation?
I would recommend the book: "Why Does E=mc2? (And Why Should We Care?)" by Brian Cox, Jeff Forshaw. [The authors are Scottish Physicists and if you get the audio book and listen to them rea it with their accents it's even better!] They talk about experiments where radioactive particles were run in a particle accelerator and compared with particles of the same material not run. They could measure the half life and the difference between the two samples was exactly as Einstein's theory would predict.
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In accordance with lounge rules "discussing anything in a software developer's life that takes your fancy except programming questions", here's a request for feedback on a time dilation example - The movie Interstellar includes examples of time dilation. My objective is to be able to provide a simple explanation and example of time dilation. Is my link below a good time dilation example or does it require correction or more clarification? http://www.oproot.com/a/nav/if/time-dilation.html[^] To access via mobile device, go to oproot.com > experiments > time dilation example Position and time were once thought to be absolute. Newton's laws of motion discredit absolute position in space. Einstein's theory of relativity discredits absolute time. The time dilation effect comes from the nature of spacetime. Time and space are now seen as dynamic quantities with each individual particle, or planet, having its own unique measure of time depending on where and how each is moving. - The Illustrated A Brief History of Time, Stephen Hawking, Page 45 In the example link, there are 4 observers with 4 synchronized clocks. 2 observers are on the surface of the earth. 1 observer is in space above the earth. 1 observer has returned from a high-speed space mission. When regrouping the clocks are different - Observer 1 surface clock is 12:25. (O1) Observer 2 surface clock is 12:25. (O2) Astronaut 1 clock is 12:28. (A1) Astronaut 2 clock is 12:21. (A2) Extra credit question - Are there any science experiment ideas (on a budget) that can be performed to demonstrate time dilation?
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In accordance with lounge rules "discussing anything in a software developer's life that takes your fancy except programming questions", here's a request for feedback on a time dilation example - The movie Interstellar includes examples of time dilation. My objective is to be able to provide a simple explanation and example of time dilation. Is my link below a good time dilation example or does it require correction or more clarification? http://www.oproot.com/a/nav/if/time-dilation.html[^] To access via mobile device, go to oproot.com > experiments > time dilation example Position and time were once thought to be absolute. Newton's laws of motion discredit absolute position in space. Einstein's theory of relativity discredits absolute time. The time dilation effect comes from the nature of spacetime. Time and space are now seen as dynamic quantities with each individual particle, or planet, having its own unique measure of time depending on where and how each is moving. - The Illustrated A Brief History of Time, Stephen Hawking, Page 45 In the example link, there are 4 observers with 4 synchronized clocks. 2 observers are on the surface of the earth. 1 observer is in space above the earth. 1 observer has returned from a high-speed space mission. When regrouping the clocks are different - Observer 1 surface clock is 12:25. (O1) Observer 2 surface clock is 12:25. (O2) Astronaut 1 clock is 12:28. (A1) Astronaut 2 clock is 12:21. (A2) Extra credit question - Are there any science experiment ideas (on a budget) that can be performed to demonstrate time dilation?
I believe that this fits your requirements I was going through my e-mails for some information on atomic frequency standards, when I came across an e-mail that I had sent to Tom Van Baak in 2007 congratulating him for his family-friendly time dilation experiment. If you are not familiar with his work, I heartily recommend that you explore his precision-time-keeping webpage at LeapSecond.com. Tom wanted to demonstrate Relativity to his children, so in September 2005 he loaded the family’s minivan with portable power supplies, monitoring equipment, and three HP 5071 cesium clocks. With his three kids and some camping gear in tow, he drove the winding roads spiraling up Washington’s Mt. Rainier and checked the family into a lodge 5,319 feet above sea level. By keeping the clocks at altitude for a weekend they were able to detect and measure the effects of relativistic time dilation compared to atomic clocks they left at home. The amazing thing is that the experiment worked! The predicted and measured effect was just over 20 nanoseconds. For more information, go to Tom’s excellent webpage “Project GREAT: General Relativity Einstein/Essen Anniversary Test – Clocks, Kids, and General Relativity on Mt Rainier” http://www.diyphysics.com/2012/03/15/tom-van-baaks-family-friendly-relativistic-time-dilation-experiment/
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In accordance with lounge rules "discussing anything in a software developer's life that takes your fancy except programming questions", here's a request for feedback on a time dilation example - The movie Interstellar includes examples of time dilation. My objective is to be able to provide a simple explanation and example of time dilation. Is my link below a good time dilation example or does it require correction or more clarification? http://www.oproot.com/a/nav/if/time-dilation.html[^] To access via mobile device, go to oproot.com > experiments > time dilation example Position and time were once thought to be absolute. Newton's laws of motion discredit absolute position in space. Einstein's theory of relativity discredits absolute time. The time dilation effect comes from the nature of spacetime. Time and space are now seen as dynamic quantities with each individual particle, or planet, having its own unique measure of time depending on where and how each is moving. - The Illustrated A Brief History of Time, Stephen Hawking, Page 45 In the example link, there are 4 observers with 4 synchronized clocks. 2 observers are on the surface of the earth. 1 observer is in space above the earth. 1 observer has returned from a high-speed space mission. When regrouping the clocks are different - Observer 1 surface clock is 12:25. (O1) Observer 2 surface clock is 12:25. (O2) Astronaut 1 clock is 12:28. (A1) Astronaut 2 clock is 12:21. (A2) Extra credit question - Are there any science experiment ideas (on a budget) that can be performed to demonstrate time dilation?
The problem with the time dilation examples are the inaccuracies in it make almost everything unknown. Where is the orbit relative to Earth? Once you get far enough out, the orbit with earth will lose to the orbit around the sun. How long does it take to get a three minute change in time? What's the mechanism for tracking time? If it is a grandfather clock movement, it will take 3 minutes in orbit to get a 3 minute time difference. If it is atomic resonance, I'd guess (WAG) it would take 3 million days to get 3 minutes difference in synchronous orbit. Being able to accelerate infinitely while reaching 99.9999999999% of the speed of light it would take 1.5 minutes out, reverse direction and 1.5 minutes back to get a 3 minute difference and it would have to have an incredibly strong machine to withstand the G forces and very fast computing to be able to tell when you are 1.5 light minutes away to stop and come back. If you went with it, you would be gelatinous goo when you get back. IE The web site doesn't do any real explaining of what is happening to cause the dilation or how long it takes to see that dilation.
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I would recommend the book: "Why Does E=mc2? (And Why Should We Care?)" by Brian Cox, Jeff Forshaw. [The authors are Scottish Physicists and if you get the audio book and listen to them rea it with their accents it's even better!] They talk about experiments where radioactive particles were run in a particle accelerator and compared with particles of the same material not run. They could measure the half life and the difference between the two samples was exactly as Einstein's theory would predict.
Scottish? Wow! People really are accent blind. I never believed it before! Brian Cox hails from Oldham in Lancashire. I've not been able to find a birthplace for Jeff Forshaw but has a similar accent though whether this has been acquired from working at Manchester University I cannot say. However they are both very much English. Northern English but definitively not Scottish!
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The problem with the time dilation examples are the inaccuracies in it make almost everything unknown. Where is the orbit relative to Earth? Once you get far enough out, the orbit with earth will lose to the orbit around the sun. How long does it take to get a three minute change in time? What's the mechanism for tracking time? If it is a grandfather clock movement, it will take 3 minutes in orbit to get a 3 minute time difference. If it is atomic resonance, I'd guess (WAG) it would take 3 million days to get 3 minutes difference in synchronous orbit. Being able to accelerate infinitely while reaching 99.9999999999% of the speed of light it would take 1.5 minutes out, reverse direction and 1.5 minutes back to get a 3 minute difference and it would have to have an incredibly strong machine to withstand the G forces and very fast computing to be able to tell when you are 1.5 light minutes away to stop and come back. If you went with it, you would be gelatinous goo when you get back. IE The web site doesn't do any real explaining of what is happening to cause the dilation or how long it takes to see that dilation.
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Being able to accelerate infinitely while reaching 99.9999999999% of the speed of light
Er ... this and other self-contradictory statements suggest that you really haven't got to grips with this at all. Sorry!
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it make almost everything unknown
But are they known unknowns or unknown unknowns?
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Scottish? Wow! People really are accent blind. I never believed it before! Brian Cox hails from Oldham in Lancashire. I've not been able to find a birthplace for Jeff Forshaw but has a similar accent though whether this has been acquired from working at Manchester University I cannot say. However they are both very much English. Northern English but definitively not Scottish!
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The problem with the time dilation examples are the inaccuracies in it make almost everything unknown. Where is the orbit relative to Earth? Once you get far enough out, the orbit with earth will lose to the orbit around the sun. How long does it take to get a three minute change in time? What's the mechanism for tracking time? If it is a grandfather clock movement, it will take 3 minutes in orbit to get a 3 minute time difference. If it is atomic resonance, I'd guess (WAG) it would take 3 million days to get 3 minutes difference in synchronous orbit. Being able to accelerate infinitely while reaching 99.9999999999% of the speed of light it would take 1.5 minutes out, reverse direction and 1.5 minutes back to get a 3 minute difference and it would have to have an incredibly strong machine to withstand the G forces and very fast computing to be able to tell when you are 1.5 light minutes away to stop and come back. If you went with it, you would be gelatinous goo when you get back. IE The web site doesn't do any real explaining of what is happening to cause the dilation or how long it takes to see that dilation.
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You are really off base. This can be measured and has been. It's real. You are making the mistake of trying to relate relativity physics to your personal experience and common sense. Doesn't work.
Quantum physics seems full of self-contradictory statements. That's why I self-contradicted myself. The examples always have spaceships going near the speed of light without ever explaining how you got the ship moving that fast. Nor do they use the math needed because the ship is already moving that fast when you start measuring the time effects. Of course they have proof they are right. The great wizard of OZ knows all, just ignore the man you see behind the curtain. The theory of relativity was and still is a theory. Even though the light shifting effects of binary stars can be seen and measured as their orbital positions shift relative to us, we aren't seeing anything in space moving near the speed of light to us. The speed of light is about 300000000 m/s, Earth gravity is about 9.75 m/s^2. The time to reach the speed of light in "normal" physics accelerating at "Earth gravity" would approximately be 300000000/(9.75*3600*24) or about 356 days. You being in the space ship using quantum physics, the perceived time becomes less than the actual time so you need to slow the acceleration down to match perceived time. (You would start at a force of 2 Gs so the initial acceleration is 1 G away from earth and cut down on the force as you reach escape velocity.) This also ignores how your propelent can work since it is almost stationary as you near light speed. There isn't any way to reach the speed of light using quantum physics because as you near the speed of light, the power needed increases exponentially to maintain the perceived 1G acceleration until the power doesn't exist. I don't know the math to calculate it, but if you perceive one object from earth moving at 0.6 times the speed of light (SOL) in one direction and another moving at 0.6 SOL in the opposite direction, it appears like they are approaching at 1.2 times the SOL while each object sees the other object is moving at less than SOL towards them. (These "ships" should have view screens with stickers saying "objects you see are moving faster than they appear to be moving")
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You are really off base. This can be measured and has been. It's real. You are making the mistake of trying to relate relativity physics to your personal experience and common sense. Doesn't work.
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Should have said, "Other than light, we aren't seeing anything in space close to us, moving near the speed of light to us."
From "Why Does e=mc^2 and Why Does It Matter?":
In the late 1990s, the scientists at Brookhaven built a machine that produced beams of muons circulating around a 14-meter-diameter ring at a speed of 99.94 percent of the speed of light. If muons live for only 2.2 microseconds when they are speeding around the ring, then they would manage only 15 laps of the ring before they died. 4 In reality, they managed more like 400 laps, which means their lifetime is extended by a factor of 29 to just over 60 microseconds.
Cox, Brian; Forshaw, Jeff (2009-07-14). Why Does E=mc2?: (And Why Should We Care?) (pp. 51-52). Perseus Books Group. Kindle Edition.
and then this:
We can therefore use our equation to predict by how much time should slow down when traveling at 99.94 percent of the speed of light, and therefore by how much a muon’s lifetime should be extended. Einstein predicts that the muons in Brookhaven should have their time stretched by a factor of γ = 1/ √ 1— υ2/ c2 with υ/ c = 0.9994. If you have a calculator handy, then type the numbers in and see what happens. Einstein’s formula gives 29, exactly as the Brookhaven experimenters found.
Cox, Brian; Forshaw, Jeff (2009-07-14). Why Does E=mc2?: (And Why Should We Care?) (p. 52). Perseus Books Group. Kindle Edition.
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From "Why Does e=mc^2 and Why Does It Matter?":
In the late 1990s, the scientists at Brookhaven built a machine that produced beams of muons circulating around a 14-meter-diameter ring at a speed of 99.94 percent of the speed of light. If muons live for only 2.2 microseconds when they are speeding around the ring, then they would manage only 15 laps of the ring before they died. 4 In reality, they managed more like 400 laps, which means their lifetime is extended by a factor of 29 to just over 60 microseconds.
Cox, Brian; Forshaw, Jeff (2009-07-14). Why Does E=mc2?: (And Why Should We Care?) (pp. 51-52). Perseus Books Group. Kindle Edition.
and then this:
We can therefore use our equation to predict by how much time should slow down when traveling at 99.94 percent of the speed of light, and therefore by how much a muon’s lifetime should be extended. Einstein predicts that the muons in Brookhaven should have their time stretched by a factor of γ = 1/ √ 1— υ2/ c2 with υ/ c = 0.9994. If you have a calculator handy, then type the numbers in and see what happens. Einstein’s formula gives 29, exactly as the Brookhaven experimenters found.
Cox, Brian; Forshaw, Jeff (2009-07-14). Why Does E=mc2?: (And Why Should We Care?) (p. 52). Perseus Books Group. Kindle Edition.
The speed of light is 299792458 m/s, 299792458*0.9994~=299612582 14 m diameter is about 43.98 m circumference,distance traveled about 17592 m 17592/299612582 is about 5.872e-5 seconds or just under 60 microseconds. I'm surprised there is a measuring device accurate enough that it can count 400 loops being made on a 44 meter track in about 60 microseconds. I know muons is or is like a light emitting particle, so, how do you get it to stand still so you can measure the 2.2 microsecond lifespan it normally has when it isn't moving? Doesn't the Heisenberg principle apply when making these measurements? I can't help but think that running a car into a brick wall at 60 mph (m is miles here) would severely shorten the lifespan of the car. (wrong analogy if muons are normally stationary.)
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Being able to accelerate infinitely while reaching 99.9999999999% of the speed of light
Er ... this and other self-contradictory statements suggest that you really haven't got to grips with this at all. Sorry!
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it make almost everything unknown
But are they known unknowns or unknown unknowns?
I'm contradictory? I intentionally made it that way because of the web link that synchronized two clocks and kept one on earth and installed the other one on a ship going nearly the speed of light. The web site certainly didn't explain how gravity or speed affects time. I believe gravity affects it because space around a heavy body is bent changing the speed light moves through space near a heavy body and that somehow affects time. I certainly don't know enough about it to properly explain how it all works, but I know enough to recognize when I see a poorly made example that doesn't really explain anything.