"I refuse to work in C#"

[Member 9116320]

You can have your panhead, I'm enjoying my BMWR1200R.

[Pablo_Go]

I'm so happy to see that there are programmers out there that still want to use their brains instead of the fingers for "autocomplete" their code. I use notepad++ for programing but most of all Gedit. For those that think that could only do "basic" things, it does not matter to me that limited vision (cause they do not know what they are talking about), with those "basic tools" i can write, Java, PHP, Asp, HTML, CSS, JavaScript, etc... . If you can not do a "visual debugging", that is, debugging only looking at the code and having in your mind values of variables / objects passing from method to method, you become what i call an "IDE user". "Doing AJAX?, oh God, where is the magic 'drag and drop' thing that let me do that 'obscure' things that take bunch of unnecessary code and use lots of bandwidth for making get that a 'div' a value from server?" There are plenty of articles out there about how software is going worst instead of better because of the waste of the amount of resources that we have now. "Freeing unused objects? no way, it is garbage's collector work, even if it is only one line of code". That's is an example of not knowing what you are doing. Happy to see that there people that shares my thoughts, sad too see that other only want to hide behind a tool. Finally, IDEs are ok if you want to use them, but if you do not know you can do things without them, it's a mistake that sooner or later you will pay for.

[jupiter218103]

"I have to actually install Visual Studio" Er....Doesn't he have to install the Python environment? (Plus all the add on libraries for mathematics and image manipulation etc.) All the right versions installed in the right order. Otherwise they don't work. If there's a problem he can always sit there for weeks looking through the source code. Looking through the source code of all that stuff is enough to convince anybody that it is not something you should be wasting your time on. Believe me. I did this the other way around. I left 'cos I refused to struggle any more with their antiquated Python command line rubbish. I wanted to work with C# and an IDE:) The only crime people like that commit is they think they are cleverer than everybody else. They think they know it all. They have long since stopped learning. They then waste their lives tangling themselves up in knots working with first principles stuff in an ever increasingly complex world. This is their crime. This is also their punishment. The only problem I have, is that it's always me that ends up looking for a new job.

[Asday]

Sometimes tools get in the way. You're the elitist here.

[AndrewJacksonZA]

Poe's law?

[Dan Neely]

+5 I'm shocked it took this long for someone to resist the urge to flame the heathen and point out the obvious. :laugh:

Did you ever see history portrayed as an old man with a wise brow and pulseless heart, waging all things in the balance of reason? Is not rather the genius of history like an eternal, imploring maiden, full of fire, with a burning heart and flaming soul, humanly warm and humanly beautiful? --Zachris Topelius Training a telescope on one’s own belly button will only reveal lint. You like that? You go right on staring at it. I prefer looking at galaxies. -- Sarah Hoyt

[John Crumpton]

I agree. Using an IDE because it does a lot of the grunt work for me doesn't imply that I've forgotten how or was never capable of doing it manually, only that I have other things to do with my time. I know how to use a broom and vacuum... but I prefer to let my Roomba do it for me.

[timallard]

To code & build software IDE's save a lot of time to code, and drag-n-drop is replacing scripting for builds, TFS a good example of mixing them with scripting to handle all needs. I like F# & VB for .Net as they translate easily to move something into the functional, mgr's want only C#, don't like VB and zero F# is the current fashion. Just sayin', C# has all the emphasis but hard to program in a functional way, have the wrox book on that, IDE or not, if you look at the rants it's over declarative vs imperative as well as command-line vs IDE. If someone is that hot on cmd, cool, that's one out of how many coders? Perspective says IDE's are needed for a lot of people vs those that are good at the manual entry.

[Stuart Dootson]

I liked the OpenVMS debugger... Better than any of the alternatives for embedded systems debugging back in the day...

Java, Basic, who cares - it's all a bunch of tree-hugging hippy cr*p

[R Giskard Reventlov]

Mookie Baylock wrote:

your's is the ability to think that there is no coding without an IDE.

If you read what I said properly you'll see that's not what I said. When I started programming I had to write it out by hand to start with so I'm perfectly at home using everything from the command line to a sophisticated IDE. I prefer the IDE because it makes my working life easier & gives me access to other useful tool sand technologies all in one easy to use package and because I have not got some outdated and ridiculously romantic notion about development. I am a professional and have been since probably before you were even a zygote. Fine, if you want to use the command line or notepad, go for it - it's great when you're a script kiddie 'coding' php or some other scripting language. For real coding, you can't beat a well made and easy to use IDE. ;P

[David Myerscough]

One of the first things I learned when I started fixing / building things was, use the right tool for the job. Every job is different and requires different tools. Your "friend" is obviously closed minded, but don't discount the idea that his tools might actually be the right answer for this particular problem. Learn from his strengths. Live with his weaknesses and combine it all to be a better, more valuable asset yourself. Don't close yourself off to other ideas. Managers appreciate employees who can offer multiple solutions for them to choose from. Linux offers very low cost solutions with open source transparency. Windows / Visual Studio is an excellent RAD platform but comes at a cost. Return on investment is key in the "real world".

[R Giskard Reventlov]

Asday wrote:

Sometimes tools get in the way.

Not if you use them properly.

Asday wrote:

You're the elitist here.

You have that ass-backward, I'm an anti-elitist. Presumably, you're one of the elitists using notepad to produce the next version of Word. Good luck with that. Here's another analogy: if I'm working on a 50 year old car, then I'd expect my toolkit to be a little different than the one I use for a 3 year old car. I might be able to sue some of those old tools on the new car but that would probably not be the most efficient use when the manufacturer would have produced specialist tools for the job. (We're ignoring the fact that you can make your own tools; from experience I can tell you that is only effective in very few cases).

[User 11783308]

I have used dozens of languages and C# is nothing special. The only reason that I see to use it is that Microsoft has placed a lot of their libraries in .NET. But, if you really need to use it, use C++/CLR because its a lot faster. That's what Microsoft does. As far as Visual Studio and an IDE, I personally don't like them. Microsoft has done a very good job on the C++ compiler (except for eliminating inline assembly in x64). Its really hard to beat the generated assembly most of the time. When I have tested it, it has given results that are usually better than most other compilers. Intel's compiler is also good but I haven't used it in some years. Sometimes GCC is really good and sometimes not (for example, it can f**k up integer overflow by just deleting code, Microsoft gets it right regardless of the C and C++ standards). I have, in the past, had to develop so that my code would run on multiple platforms. Consequently, I use the command line for compilation so that it will work cross platform. I use a mixture of tools and develop under Windows for convenience. Then I just compile my target code. I have never seen an IDE I like. They usually force me to use a coding style I don't like and won't use. They all suck almost as badly as Notepad for editing. I use an editor with several thousand lines of extensions that is extremely powerful. That is critical to my performance. Just as importantly, I use a NorthGate OmniKey/ULTRA keyboard (always looking for more of those).

[PIEBALDconsult]

John Crumpton wrote:

I prefer to let my Roomba do it for me.

My wife does that. Sometimes. Maybe. Or we just move. :shrug: Generally I use Visual Studio when I need the Designer or debugger or to explore an unfamiliar namespace. If a particualr task doesn't require any of those, then VS isn't helping. Oh, one other reason I use VS is for manipulating TFS; I treat the TFS repository as a Project on its own.

[s ort]

I know this discussion is getting kind of old, but I thought I'd add my two cents. For years, I've been coding in a Linux environment with EMACS (I know, that's another topic for discussion) which in my dev env had no autocomplete, but had syntax coloring. I started out in school with emacs on a dumb terminal which was awesome in that you had pretty good control of the text (which is what emacs was good at and was created for in the first place). Point being, there was no crutch as far as syntax was concerned because you were tested on that sort of thing in school. So, now, in my professional world it has been a slow migration toward IDEs with all its functionality to allow me to not have to think about how to implement something on a micro level but think about the big picture. I think that when I use languages with a big API, I don't want to have to remember all the methods used in a standard Map or List to get my work done. I know the syntax of the base keywords in many languages and THAT is required because that goes down to basic language functionality. You need to know how to create a for loop and use if-else and switch statements, etc. to even get a start on implementing code in your project. So then I migrated to using Netbeans and eclipse for C++ and it had autocomplete and syntax coloring and could wire in a compiler and debugger. I now develop in C# and use Visual Studio. These tools now allow me to code much quicker and my SLOC counts are much larger because of these because I can think about the big picture and allow the tools to help me implement on a lower level much easier and quicker. Because, after all, quicker means cheaper and that's the name of the game these days. It looks like I added more like $2. Cheers...Steve--

[User 10300468]

It could always be worse. You could be required to build an app with nothing but Access and macros. It's like opening that nice red toolbox and finding only a bag of sporks.

[PIEBALDconsult]

How many sporks are we talking about here?

[PIEBALDconsult]

You're not comparing VS with fine German engineering, are you? :wtf: Just a BMW's ABS means it shouldn't crash as often as VS. :laugh:

[User 10300468]

It's a bonus bag, there's at least fifty in there. With a little time, practice and the incandescent bulb in your desklamp, you can morph them into barely adequate approximations of necessary tools.

[PIEBALDconsult]

OK, I can work with that. Thanks.