Interesting Article on the demise of StackOverflow as being useful for beginners
-
Kevin Marois wrote:
I disagree.
With what, exactly?
Kevin Marois wrote:
Right at the top of the pages is are both Questions and Ask Question button.
Actually, even closer to the top of the page is a menu option titled 'help' - the very first option of which is "Tour" - Start here for a quick overview of the site. I dont find anything presented there ambiguous. Many(most?) of the posts that receive a hostile reception are ones which have clearly not given consideration to the directions contained in this introduction page. The very first words on the page are in fact, "Stack Overflow is a question and answer site for professional and enthusiast programmers."- that in itself clearly and unequivocally (to me) says the site is not for beginners.
Kevin Marois wrote:
I've been coding for 30 years and seen a lot of forums. SO is the only one where I get regularly flamed. I agree with the article.. the member and mods seems to go out of their way to ridicule and insult OP's because of a typo or some other non-question related issue.
Same, you've about 5 years on me - but don't you remember Usenet? Now that was a truly frosty and hostile environment with a far less clear mission statement. I've been flamed at SO once that I can recall - from some fella working as an Aus defence contractor with a rep of 400,000 or so. I guess my experiences have more fortunate than yours. I think the fact that it's aimed primarily at professional programmers speaks volumes for why some people are treated like fools. Walking into SO and asking how to put together a Hello World program is just begging for a smacking.
Kevin Marois wrote:
To be blunt - if someone doesn't have an answer, DON'T ANSWER... how hard is that?
It's all well and good to say that someone shouldn't answer if they don't have one, but it's an entirely different thing to read the Tour page and do as is said to be expected. Its expected that clarification will be sought, errors fixed and strident effort applied to make the site good. I agree that in many cases, an insulting comment will be supplied, rather than a simple, silent edit of the question. But surely political correctness for the sake of the thin-skinned does more damage than good? Poor answers should be discouraged, as should poor questions. Failure to do so si
Your points are very constructive. However when you require 'articulate' I would qualify that a little. People who do not have English as a first language can be assisted to get the question clear. Also I see no reason why a beginner cannot ask a reasonable question so making them feel excluded as part of a mission statement is not necessary. Just apply the same rules to all. I agree fully with your comments about maintaining quality and discouraging dud answers.
Peter Wasser "The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell
-
Your points are very constructive. However when you require 'articulate' I would qualify that a little. People who do not have English as a first language can be assisted to get the question clear. Also I see no reason why a beginner cannot ask a reasonable question so making them feel excluded as part of a mission statement is not necessary. Just apply the same rules to all. I agree fully with your comments about maintaining quality and discouraging dud answers.
Peter Wasser "The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell
Another well considered response, as always. :thumbsup: I find it amusing that my touching on the topic of being articulate was not particularly articulate itself. You've qualified it nicely. It's common to see questions written in pidgin English which display far more effort than those of many native speakers - I for one am disappointed when conscientious non-native speakers are punished. Its precisely these types of questions that I find so enriching and often, the biggest take-away with real use in the face-face world. If my German was 1/2 as good as the pidgin English usually is, I'd feel very fortunate.
-
Super Lloyd wrote:
All hail CodeProject for doing an excellent work so far! :-D
So far. But I do see it slipping. Years ago CP was a very good place to both ask and answer questions. Though lately, especially in the Q&A section it is not so anymore. At least not for me. If someone asks a question about 'A' then answer the question about 'A', do not tell them that 'A' is the wrong approach and they had better use 'B' instead. I also see beginner questions being down voted, probably for being too simple. We all started knowing nothing and we learn by asking. Most times beginners just need a point in the right direction, and Google is not the direction they need. I also find that the more difficult or obscure questions do not get answered. The powers that be at CP had better be careful of this or soon CP will go the same way as SO.
Within you lies the power for good - Use it!
A lot of the "beginner" questions that get down-voted earn it because the person isn't really asking a question. You get stuff like a post of a homework assignment. No question, just the homework assignment, like they want you to do their work for them and just hand them the code. You get stuff like, "how do I fix the error in this code?" and then they don't supply the error message, the line it throws on or post a huge code snippet and expect you to hunt through the code to find any and all problems. How about opposite? "I got this error message ... How do I fix it?" and don't show the code at all. Well, you might want to start with showing us the code that threw it! Stuff like "How do I use this library?" and give you some name of a library nobody has ever heard of. No other questions or specifics about what they're doing or any problem they're having. After 10+ years around here we have noticed the quality of questions going down hill. It's not so much a technical, "beginner" problems that get down-voted. It's usually the OP's lack of communications skills in merely asking the question, such as the ability to provide a context or even has some comprehension of "what would someone need to know about this problem to help me solve it?" Asking a question is a skill. With the passage of time, it seems that this is becoming a lost art instead of a basic educational necessity.
A guide to posting questions on CodeProject
Click this: Asking questions is a skill. Seriously, do it.
Dave Kreskowiak -
Super Lloyd wrote:
All hail CodeProject for doing an excellent work so far! :-D
So far. But I do see it slipping. Years ago CP was a very good place to both ask and answer questions. Though lately, especially in the Q&A section it is not so anymore. At least not for me. If someone asks a question about 'A' then answer the question about 'A', do not tell them that 'A' is the wrong approach and they had better use 'B' instead. I also see beginner questions being down voted, probably for being too simple. We all started knowing nothing and we learn by asking. Most times beginners just need a point in the right direction, and Google is not the direction they need. I also find that the more difficult or obscure questions do not get answered. The powers that be at CP had better be careful of this or soon CP will go the same way as SO.
Within you lies the power for good - Use it!
I see it too. I've been trolled twice in the past month on here; not too bad, but it irked me. I don't like to answer a question correctly and have it down-voted. Unfortunately, people have the safety of anonymity on the web, similarly as they do in their car; trolling the left lane (or right in GB). We're in the silly season and we should all probably think twice before posting or down voting a question on here or any other site. Even when someone posts a beginner level tip under article that is really bad, we should thank them for their effort and not be mean; just inform them how they could improve it. This is a very good site, yet we should all be a bit more understanding and polite. Thanks for your pov.
-
A lot of the "beginner" questions that get down-voted earn it because the person isn't really asking a question. You get stuff like a post of a homework assignment. No question, just the homework assignment, like they want you to do their work for them and just hand them the code. You get stuff like, "how do I fix the error in this code?" and then they don't supply the error message, the line it throws on or post a huge code snippet and expect you to hunt through the code to find any and all problems. How about opposite? "I got this error message ... How do I fix it?" and don't show the code at all. Well, you might want to start with showing us the code that threw it! Stuff like "How do I use this library?" and give you some name of a library nobody has ever heard of. No other questions or specifics about what they're doing or any problem they're having. After 10+ years around here we have noticed the quality of questions going down hill. It's not so much a technical, "beginner" problems that get down-voted. It's usually the OP's lack of communications skills in merely asking the question, such as the ability to provide a context or even has some comprehension of "what would someone need to know about this problem to help me solve it?" Asking a question is a skill. With the passage of time, it seems that this is becoming a lost art instead of a basic educational necessity.
A guide to posting questions on CodeProject
Click this: Asking questions is a skill. Seriously, do it.
Dave KreskowiakYour points are valid.
Dave Kreskowiak wrote:
basic educational necessity
It is very apparent that many questioners have very little basic education. If they did they would know some simple mathematics, how to consult documentation and use Google to do research. Many of us are professionals who learnt to program because a computer was a better tool than a slide rule. So we are used to mingling with a certain cohort and take certain rules for granted. The internet has brought us in contact with many and different people. This is a challenge which I have thought a lot about. Laziness accompanied by a complete lack of shame should not be rewarded but a genuine effort to learn can only be applauded. How to adjudicate this is the conundrum.
Peter Wasser "The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell
-
https://medium.com/@johnslegers/the-decline-of-stack-overflow-7cb69faa575d#.w2e4w8u93[^] I am still reading it myself but can certainly attest that the new user experience over there is more like working at the United States Postal office or the Department of Motor Vehicles.
I second the article, did very well on experts exchange 'in the old days' until amongst other reasons it closed itself in a way. I see wannebees that are hunting points inflating the qualtity of it all, and that is not just on stack overflow unfortunately. Too bad.
-
I can't really speak for all, in my quests to find answers I found StackOverFlow pretty much useless this caused me to find CP and all is well, questions got answered with no abuse. Can't say I am surprised though!
I have never actually asked a question on SO, however I get 90% of my answers from them. If I can't find an answer on SO I ask the question on CP :-O
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity RAH
-
https://medium.com/@johnslegers/the-decline-of-stack-overflow-7cb69faa575d#.w2e4w8u93[^] I am still reading it myself but can certainly attest that the new user experience over there is more like working at the United States Postal office or the Department of Motor Vehicles.
I'm reluctant to post questions on SO, despite having 18 years experience as a software developer. There is definitely an elitist mindset amongst many who post over there. Downvoting is common even for sensible questions, and it is very competitive in terms of gaining rep points. As an example, I posted a question on there a couple of months ago. We've just begun looking into using TeamCity as our Continuous Integration server. I have a lot of previous experience with CruiseControl.NET so am not some noobie. I understand the theory and concepts, so just wanted some general guidance on approaches to configuring TeamCity with TFS. So my question was open-ended as I was looking for advice and guidance. I checked my question later at lunch time to find that it had been downvoted twice and closed - "Question closed as vague and cannot be answered”. I had to delete the question for fear of losing more rep points. CP is a far more welcoming and helpful place to visit, and I want to see that continuing. CP is (IMO) the best technical resource on the Internet by a long way :-D
"There are two ways of constructing a software design: One way is to make it so simple that there are obviously no deficiencies, and the other way is to make it so complicated that there are no obvious deficiencies. The first method is far more difficult." - C.A.R. Hoare Home | LinkedIn | Google+ | Twitter
-
https://medium.com/@johnslegers/the-decline-of-stack-overflow-7cb69faa575d#.w2e4w8u93[^] I am still reading it myself but can certainly attest that the new user experience over there is more like working at the United States Postal office or the Department of Motor Vehicles.
-
https://medium.com/@johnslegers/the-decline-of-stack-overflow-7cb69faa575d#.w2e4w8u93[^] I am still reading it myself but can certainly attest that the new user experience over there is more like working at the United States Postal office or the Department of Motor Vehicles.
I don't ask questions - I read documentation. The only reason in my company we asked for unlocking CP and SO is that MSDN redirects here or there in most of the search results. That bein said, EVERY time I clicked on a SO answer I did not only NOT get what I wanted but read many flaming / useless answers and the common "what are you trying to do is the wrong way" (I know but it's the only one I have access to so answer me or shut up), "the technology you're using is outdated" (I know that too I must stick to that so answer or shut up) ans d so on. Here I normally find at least an article covering it, sometimes even an answered question - having been in the dreaded Linux forums I know it is a rare occasion indeed. Regarding the behaviour of some high-rep users here closing or downvoting beginners question I find it on the very limit of abuse - if a question has been already answered or there are article covering it at least link to them, and do it nicely. Most poeple cannot Google their way out because they DO NOT KNOW WHAT TO ASK. You can help them or smear them - if you do the latter remember that karma is a bit and it's always behind the corner.
GCS d--- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L- E-- W++ N++ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t++ 5? X R++ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++>+++ h--- ++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP. -- TNCaver "When you have eliminated the JavaScript, whatever remains must be an empty page." -- Mike Hankey "just eat it, eat it"."They're out to mold, better eat while you can" -- HobbyProggy
-
https://medium.com/@johnslegers/the-decline-of-stack-overflow-7cb69faa575d#.w2e4w8u93[^] I am still reading it myself but can certainly attest that the new user experience over there is more like working at the United States Postal office or the Department of Motor Vehicles.
I created an account on stack overflow and found all my answers were downvoted or heavily criticised for what amounted to petty reasons. While on codeproject I tend to find that people are much more appreciative of help. My take on stackoverflow is that it has been taken over by petty minded people who will downvote low-status members no matter how good their answers are - this then helps maintain their own position in their petty hierarchy. The problem with this is that stackoverflow is replete with good answers that have been downvoted and decent questions that are closed because they don't meet some weird criteria set on the basis of the fiat of some cliquey in-group. So while as a source stackoverflow is fairly decent - as a community it simply sucks!
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”
― Christopher Hitchens
-
I'm reluctant to post questions on SO, despite having 18 years experience as a software developer. There is definitely an elitist mindset amongst many who post over there. Downvoting is common even for sensible questions, and it is very competitive in terms of gaining rep points. As an example, I posted a question on there a couple of months ago. We've just begun looking into using TeamCity as our Continuous Integration server. I have a lot of previous experience with CruiseControl.NET so am not some noobie. I understand the theory and concepts, so just wanted some general guidance on approaches to configuring TeamCity with TFS. So my question was open-ended as I was looking for advice and guidance. I checked my question later at lunch time to find that it had been downvoted twice and closed - "Question closed as vague and cannot be answered”. I had to delete the question for fear of losing more rep points. CP is a far more welcoming and helpful place to visit, and I want to see that continuing. CP is (IMO) the best technical resource on the Internet by a long way :-D
"There are two ways of constructing a software design: One way is to make it so simple that there are obviously no deficiencies, and the other way is to make it so complicated that there are no obvious deficiencies. The first method is far more difficult." - C.A.R. Hoare Home | LinkedIn | Google+ | Twitter
I find myself in the same position as you - petty downvoting appears to be the norm at stackoverflow. Which was why after a week of creating an account, I had closed it.
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”
― Christopher Hitchens
-
A lot of the "beginner" questions that get down-voted earn it because the person isn't really asking a question. You get stuff like a post of a homework assignment. No question, just the homework assignment, like they want you to do their work for them and just hand them the code. You get stuff like, "how do I fix the error in this code?" and then they don't supply the error message, the line it throws on or post a huge code snippet and expect you to hunt through the code to find any and all problems. How about opposite? "I got this error message ... How do I fix it?" and don't show the code at all. Well, you might want to start with showing us the code that threw it! Stuff like "How do I use this library?" and give you some name of a library nobody has ever heard of. No other questions or specifics about what they're doing or any problem they're having. After 10+ years around here we have noticed the quality of questions going down hill. It's not so much a technical, "beginner" problems that get down-voted. It's usually the OP's lack of communications skills in merely asking the question, such as the ability to provide a context or even has some comprehension of "what would someone need to know about this problem to help me solve it?" Asking a question is a skill. With the passage of time, it seems that this is becoming a lost art instead of a basic educational necessity.
A guide to posting questions on CodeProject
Click this: Asking questions is a skill. Seriously, do it.
Dave KreskowiakDave Kreskowiak wrote:
Asking a question is a skill. With the passage of time, it seems that this is becoming a lost art instead of a basic educational necessity.
THIS
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
-----
You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
-----
When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013 -
Super Lloyd wrote:
All hail CodeProject for doing an excellent work so far! :-D
So far. But I do see it slipping. Years ago CP was a very good place to both ask and answer questions. Though lately, especially in the Q&A section it is not so anymore. At least not for me. If someone asks a question about 'A' then answer the question about 'A', do not tell them that 'A' is the wrong approach and they had better use 'B' instead. I also see beginner questions being down voted, probably for being too simple. We all started knowing nothing and we learn by asking. Most times beginners just need a point in the right direction, and Google is not the direction they need. I also find that the more difficult or obscure questions do not get answered. The powers that be at CP had better be careful of this or soon CP will go the same way as SO.
Within you lies the power for good - Use it!
-
https://medium.com/@johnslegers/the-decline-of-stack-overflow-7cb69faa575d#.w2e4w8u93[^] I am still reading it myself but can certainly attest that the new user experience over there is more like working at the United States Postal office or the Department of Motor Vehicles.
I both like and dislike stack exchange. I think the community is to harsh. Nowadays I might be to blame but when I got a small problem that I'm having trouble to explain or just need some quick answers/directions I use stack exchange. Just to have a baited hook in the sea. But I do try to explain my current question as detailed as possible as well as what research I've done. If it's something bigger where I also have a greater chance of bettering myself I use CP. Mainly because of the community.
-
Super Lloyd wrote:
All hail CodeProject for doing an excellent work so far! :-D
So far. But I do see it slipping. Years ago CP was a very good place to both ask and answer questions. Though lately, especially in the Q&A section it is not so anymore. At least not for me. If someone asks a question about 'A' then answer the question about 'A', do not tell them that 'A' is the wrong approach and they had better use 'B' instead. I also see beginner questions being down voted, probably for being too simple. We all started knowing nothing and we learn by asking. Most times beginners just need a point in the right direction, and Google is not the direction they need. I also find that the more difficult or obscure questions do not get answered. The powers that be at CP had better be careful of this or soon CP will go the same way as SO.
Within you lies the power for good - Use it!
PJ Arends wrote:
If someone asks a question about 'A' then answer the question about 'A', do not tell them that 'A' is the wrong approach and they had better use 'B' instead.
I see your point. However, it's also a good idea for them to point out how to do B if B indeed is a better approach.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
-
https://medium.com/@johnslegers/the-decline-of-stack-overflow-7cb69faa575d#.w2e4w8u93[^] I am still reading it myself but can certainly attest that the new user experience over there is more like working at the United States Postal office or the Department of Motor Vehicles.
-
A lot of the "beginner" questions that get down-voted earn it because the person isn't really asking a question. You get stuff like a post of a homework assignment. No question, just the homework assignment, like they want you to do their work for them and just hand them the code. You get stuff like, "how do I fix the error in this code?" and then they don't supply the error message, the line it throws on or post a huge code snippet and expect you to hunt through the code to find any and all problems. How about opposite? "I got this error message ... How do I fix it?" and don't show the code at all. Well, you might want to start with showing us the code that threw it! Stuff like "How do I use this library?" and give you some name of a library nobody has ever heard of. No other questions or specifics about what they're doing or any problem they're having. After 10+ years around here we have noticed the quality of questions going down hill. It's not so much a technical, "beginner" problems that get down-voted. It's usually the OP's lack of communications skills in merely asking the question, such as the ability to provide a context or even has some comprehension of "what would someone need to know about this problem to help me solve it?" Asking a question is a skill. With the passage of time, it seems that this is becoming a lost art instead of a basic educational necessity.
A guide to posting questions on CodeProject
Click this: Asking questions is a skill. Seriously, do it.
Dave KreskowiakSo far I feel I have been well received here with my questions and some may have not been the best or clearest but from my experience I've been well rewarded when trying to improve the question and get a small discussion going. Maybe not the best way to work with QA but I think that having a good spirit around this sort of thing helps a lot. Even my more diffuse questions that doesn't contain specific technicalities as netted me worthwhile information allowing me to progress with solving my problems. Maybe one problem is that a lot of questions are better suited in a discussion forum or rather in a chat where the poster might then find that they asked about the wrong thing. Maybe a multilayered QA site could solve this. A way to have QA, forum and chat semi integrated. A chat with short-lived topics which wither can evolve in to topics for discussion or distilled into a question more fitting QA. Sometimes you see questions at stack overflow which gets edited by both contributors and poster as the question evolves as the poster or someone else realizes that another question is more fitting, and that when answered will actually solve the original problem. Just trying to express this I feel my communication skills lacking and I'm unsure if I manage to express what I want said. In QA places this is usually compounded by multiple people on different levels when it comes to language and communication skills as well as technical skills.
-
https://medium.com/@johnslegers/the-decline-of-stack-overflow-7cb69faa575d#.w2e4w8u93[^] I am still reading it myself but can certainly attest that the new user experience over there is more like working at the United States Postal office or the Department of Motor Vehicles.
-
Super Lloyd wrote:
All hail CodeProject for doing an excellent work so far! :-D
So far. But I do see it slipping. Years ago CP was a very good place to both ask and answer questions. Though lately, especially in the Q&A section it is not so anymore. At least not for me. If someone asks a question about 'A' then answer the question about 'A', do not tell them that 'A' is the wrong approach and they had better use 'B' instead. I also see beginner questions being down voted, probably for being too simple. We all started knowing nothing and we learn by asking. Most times beginners just need a point in the right direction, and Google is not the direction they need. I also find that the more difficult or obscure questions do not get answered. The powers that be at CP had better be careful of this or soon CP will go the same way as SO.
Within you lies the power for good - Use it!
PJ Arends wrote:
Years ago CP was a very good place to both ask and answer questions.
I don't think CP was ever a very good Q&A community. It's the articles that make it a great place. Years ago, there were also good technology-related discussions in the Lounge, but that's gone.
