Language for non-programmers
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I argue that C# is simpler than VB.net anyway. It flows better and it has fewer reserved words -- and reserved words have a negative side-effect in that they tend to hinder globalization.
PIEBALDconsult wrote:
I argue that C# is simpler than VB.net anyway
Possibly but if they have already worked with VBA then they have been polluted with the VB syntax and there is a learning curve to moving to c#. It is worth the cost in effort just to access the support resources on the interweb.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity RAH
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Apologies if this has been posted to incorrect forum. Feel free to suggest alternatives. Requirement: University unit must cover Web Site creation and Programming Concepts. Audience: A mix of students. Some have programmed. Others have not. Some will seek career in IT but not as code developers. Some are business students who just want exposure to some simple Web Dev. Question: Which prog language? Current Plan (very flexible): Cover very basic concepts of Web Servers, Web Browsers, HTML5 / CSS3. Enough to understand that a web page is a collection of files etc . Students will create some very simple web pages. Next, use WordPress instead of 'low level' HTML5 & CSS3. Students experience Themes, Plug-ins, configuration, backups etc. Many students create quite sophisticated sites. Previously VB.NET and VBA (excel macros) were used for programming. Negatives: * .NET requires purchase of s/w and install and .Net framework * VB syntax does not help newbies read/understand c-style syntax used in most other languages that they may experience * Simple desktop apps don't fit into web space * C# is OK, but cost, install, framework etc are still an issue Pluses: * Simple to learn. Useful code. Allows students to automate excel, or have little trouble writing a small scripts or even manage to write a simple stored procedure (they also do some DB work in other units) So, any suggestions on which language you think would be best in such circumstances? (The reason I'm asking this question here is that many people in my workplace have set ideas that haven't changed in years (decades?)). Thanks, Peter
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MIT chose Python.
MIT === Mythology Institute of Technology
Skipper: We'll fix it. Alex: Fix it? How you gonna fix this? Skipper: Grit, spit and a whole lotta duct tape.
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MIT === Mythology Institute of Technology
Skipper: We'll fix it. Alex: Fix it? How you gonna fix this? Skipper: Grit, spit and a whole lotta duct tape.
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mr_peter wrote:
* C# is OK, but **cost**, install, framework etc are still an issue
What cost? It's free. And you don't even need Windows, so it's double free.
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Shouldn't they choose Delphi to be consistent with the Mythology thing ? :-D
Patrice “Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler.” Albert Einstein
Delphi belongs to the department of Archaeology... :-D
Skipper: We'll fix it. Alex: Fix it? How you gonna fix this? Skipper: Grit, spit and a whole lotta duct tape.
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Visual Studio Community Edition is free for use in classrooms or individual use[^]. And the few limitations[^] there are compared to Professional edition, is probably nothing to worry about for your needs. If you want another environment than windows you should check out Mono[^].
Wrong is evil and must be defeated. - Jeff Ello
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How about PERL. A book I once read explains that PERL is written in simple English. But seriously folks... I vote for Python simply because it is quite easy to learn and it is free.
I may not last forever but the mess I leave behind certainly will.
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Apologies if this has been posted to incorrect forum. Feel free to suggest alternatives. Requirement: University unit must cover Web Site creation and Programming Concepts. Audience: A mix of students. Some have programmed. Others have not. Some will seek career in IT but not as code developers. Some are business students who just want exposure to some simple Web Dev. Question: Which prog language? Current Plan (very flexible): Cover very basic concepts of Web Servers, Web Browsers, HTML5 / CSS3. Enough to understand that a web page is a collection of files etc . Students will create some very simple web pages. Next, use WordPress instead of 'low level' HTML5 & CSS3. Students experience Themes, Plug-ins, configuration, backups etc. Many students create quite sophisticated sites. Previously VB.NET and VBA (excel macros) were used for programming. Negatives: * .NET requires purchase of s/w and install and .Net framework * VB syntax does not help newbies read/understand c-style syntax used in most other languages that they may experience * Simple desktop apps don't fit into web space * C# is OK, but cost, install, framework etc are still an issue Pluses: * Simple to learn. Useful code. Allows students to automate excel, or have little trouble writing a small scripts or even manage to write a simple stored procedure (they also do some DB work in other units) So, any suggestions on which language you think would be best in such circumstances? (The reason I'm asking this question here is that many people in my workplace have set ideas that haven't changed in years (decades?)). Thanks, Peter
Answer is clearly javascript. It is an easy to learn but powerful language and it is very broadly used in the internet. Every modern browser has development tools for javascript on board for FREE. Dont get worried with the "script" in the name, it has modern object syntax and rich callback support.
Press F1 for help or google it. Greetings from Germany
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Apologies if this has been posted to incorrect forum. Feel free to suggest alternatives. Requirement: University unit must cover Web Site creation and Programming Concepts. Audience: A mix of students. Some have programmed. Others have not. Some will seek career in IT but not as code developers. Some are business students who just want exposure to some simple Web Dev. Question: Which prog language? Current Plan (very flexible): Cover very basic concepts of Web Servers, Web Browsers, HTML5 / CSS3. Enough to understand that a web page is a collection of files etc . Students will create some very simple web pages. Next, use WordPress instead of 'low level' HTML5 & CSS3. Students experience Themes, Plug-ins, configuration, backups etc. Many students create quite sophisticated sites. Previously VB.NET and VBA (excel macros) were used for programming. Negatives: * .NET requires purchase of s/w and install and .Net framework * VB syntax does not help newbies read/understand c-style syntax used in most other languages that they may experience * Simple desktop apps don't fit into web space * C# is OK, but cost, install, framework etc are still an issue Pluses: * Simple to learn. Useful code. Allows students to automate excel, or have little trouble writing a small scripts or even manage to write a simple stored procedure (they also do some DB work in other units) So, any suggestions on which language you think would be best in such circumstances? (The reason I'm asking this question here is that many people in my workplace have set ideas that haven't changed in years (decades?)). Thanks, Peter
Question is how far in the rabbit hole you'd like to venture. If you teach them web site things: HTML, CSS and javascript are a must and yes, somewhat at low level, however you could limit this be letting them do some selfstudy on eg. w3schools[^]. eg. you give them a assignment to build a small basic website that uses all the basic concepts, after that you can move to tools that generate html/css and the likes for more complex assignments. make sure they check the work accross browsers ;-) and also touch a bit on frameworks (jquery). There is Visual Studio Express, which is free. C# is closer to javascript concerning syntax. But I have the feeling that server side code might be too much for this course, ESPECIALLY if some are non-coders a standard coding assignment is already hard enough, let alone a web development. just my two cents.
V.
(MQOTD rules and previous solutions)
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Answer is clearly javascript. It is an easy to learn but powerful language and it is very broadly used in the internet. Every modern browser has development tools for javascript on board for FREE. Dont get worried with the "script" in the name, it has modern object syntax and rich callback support.
Press F1 for help or google it. Greetings from Germany
KarstenK wrote:
Dont get worried with the "script" in the name,
Sure. It's even better than C-64 BASIC and at least twice as awkward to use. The whole idea is to teach them something, not to scare them away.
The language is JavaScript. that of Mordor, which I will not utter here
This is Javascript. If you put big wheels and a racing stripe on a golf cart, it's still a fucking golf cart.
"I don't know, extraterrestrial?" "You mean like from space?" "No, from Canada." If software development were a circus, we would all be the clowns. -
Apologies if this has been posted to incorrect forum. Feel free to suggest alternatives. Requirement: University unit must cover Web Site creation and Programming Concepts. Audience: A mix of students. Some have programmed. Others have not. Some will seek career in IT but not as code developers. Some are business students who just want exposure to some simple Web Dev. Question: Which prog language? Current Plan (very flexible): Cover very basic concepts of Web Servers, Web Browsers, HTML5 / CSS3. Enough to understand that a web page is a collection of files etc . Students will create some very simple web pages. Next, use WordPress instead of 'low level' HTML5 & CSS3. Students experience Themes, Plug-ins, configuration, backups etc. Many students create quite sophisticated sites. Previously VB.NET and VBA (excel macros) were used for programming. Negatives: * .NET requires purchase of s/w and install and .Net framework * VB syntax does not help newbies read/understand c-style syntax used in most other languages that they may experience * Simple desktop apps don't fit into web space * C# is OK, but cost, install, framework etc are still an issue Pluses: * Simple to learn. Useful code. Allows students to automate excel, or have little trouble writing a small scripts or even manage to write a simple stored procedure (they also do some DB work in other units) So, any suggestions on which language you think would be best in such circumstances? (The reason I'm asking this question here is that many people in my workplace have set ideas that haven't changed in years (decades?)). Thanks, Peter
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Apologies if this has been posted to incorrect forum. Feel free to suggest alternatives. Requirement: University unit must cover Web Site creation and Programming Concepts. Audience: A mix of students. Some have programmed. Others have not. Some will seek career in IT but not as code developers. Some are business students who just want exposure to some simple Web Dev. Question: Which prog language? Current Plan (very flexible): Cover very basic concepts of Web Servers, Web Browsers, HTML5 / CSS3. Enough to understand that a web page is a collection of files etc . Students will create some very simple web pages. Next, use WordPress instead of 'low level' HTML5 & CSS3. Students experience Themes, Plug-ins, configuration, backups etc. Many students create quite sophisticated sites. Previously VB.NET and VBA (excel macros) were used for programming. Negatives: * .NET requires purchase of s/w and install and .Net framework * VB syntax does not help newbies read/understand c-style syntax used in most other languages that they may experience * Simple desktop apps don't fit into web space * C# is OK, but cost, install, framework etc are still an issue Pluses: * Simple to learn. Useful code. Allows students to automate excel, or have little trouble writing a small scripts or even manage to write a simple stored procedure (they also do some DB work in other units) So, any suggestions on which language you think would be best in such circumstances? (The reason I'm asking this question here is that many people in my workplace have set ideas that haven't changed in years (decades?)). Thanks, Peter
From your specification it looks to me like "web programming for beginners". As C# is marked "OK...but" I would suggest to go for C# added by basic ASP.NET because it can do indeed "simple web pages", and is completely free on Windows. I did a course like this on Windows + IIS some years ago and it was doable with C#, because C# is easy to explain and to teach. It is easy to show how to do web forms with clickable buttons etc in asp.net ... Regards,
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Apologies if this has been posted to incorrect forum. Feel free to suggest alternatives. Requirement: University unit must cover Web Site creation and Programming Concepts. Audience: A mix of students. Some have programmed. Others have not. Some will seek career in IT but not as code developers. Some are business students who just want exposure to some simple Web Dev. Question: Which prog language? Current Plan (very flexible): Cover very basic concepts of Web Servers, Web Browsers, HTML5 / CSS3. Enough to understand that a web page is a collection of files etc . Students will create some very simple web pages. Next, use WordPress instead of 'low level' HTML5 & CSS3. Students experience Themes, Plug-ins, configuration, backups etc. Many students create quite sophisticated sites. Previously VB.NET and VBA (excel macros) were used for programming. Negatives: * .NET requires purchase of s/w and install and .Net framework * VB syntax does not help newbies read/understand c-style syntax used in most other languages that they may experience * Simple desktop apps don't fit into web space * C# is OK, but cost, install, framework etc are still an issue Pluses: * Simple to learn. Useful code. Allows students to automate excel, or have little trouble writing a small scripts or even manage to write a simple stored procedure (they also do some DB work in other units) So, any suggestions on which language you think would be best in such circumstances? (The reason I'm asking this question here is that many people in my workplace have set ideas that haven't changed in years (decades?)). Thanks, Peter
I'd seriously consider JavaScript (More specifically, TypeScript). There's plenty of available information on the MEAN stack, and it has the distinct benefit of allowing you to tailor the experience to the capabilities of the students with little effort. Each stack element has a bit of a learning curve, but I strongly suspect that some of them (specifically Angular) are not so step if one doesn't walk in with preconceived notions. For tools, you can use JetBrains WebStorm (which is fantastic) with free licenses for classroom environments.
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"I thought C# ran only in a .Net / Windows environment" ... sorry, and YOU are teaching at which University? Business does not expect teaching institutions to be fully informed of the subject matter they prescribe to qualify their students in, but something as widely known as the above is a basic expectation. Brutally honest, but a fact - and scores a fail.
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There is also free C# via csc.exe and VB.net via vbc.exe. Each version of .NET on Windows comes with compilers. They probably won't help too much if you are targeting web platform, but sufficient for simple Console programming tasks like you might perform in an intro class. You could go old school and target a CGI type of web experience where the server runs executables that Console.WriteLine the web page output. (Not very transferable to the job market, but that is how it all started...) If this is for a grade, this approach would be easy to grade.
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How about PERL. A book I once read explains that PERL is written in simple English. But seriously folks... I vote for Python simply because it is quite easy to learn and it is free.
I may not last forever but the mess I leave behind certainly will.
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PIEBALDconsult wrote:
I argue that C# is simpler than VB.net anyway
Possibly but if they have already worked with VBA then they have been polluted with the VB syntax and there is a learning curve to moving to c#. It is worth the cost in effort just to access the support resources on the interweb.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity RAH
By the same token, with my C and C# experience I had difficulty learning the basics of VB.net ; old dog / new trick. I find VB.net just too restrictive and inflexible. I'm saying that for they with no experience in either of these two languages, the choice should be C#. A non-serious student with some experience with one of these two languages should probably continue in that language. Serious students, of course, need to learn several. I was speaking with one of my nephews-in-law this past weekend and he has learned some Java, Python, and C# so I think he'll be alright.
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How about PERL. A book I once read explains that PERL is written in simple English. But seriously folks... I vote for Python simply because it is quite easy to learn and it is free.
I may not last forever but the mess I leave behind certainly will.
Learn Perl or die? :-D
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Apologies if this has been posted to incorrect forum. Feel free to suggest alternatives. Requirement: University unit must cover Web Site creation and Programming Concepts. Audience: A mix of students. Some have programmed. Others have not. Some will seek career in IT but not as code developers. Some are business students who just want exposure to some simple Web Dev. Question: Which prog language? Current Plan (very flexible): Cover very basic concepts of Web Servers, Web Browsers, HTML5 / CSS3. Enough to understand that a web page is a collection of files etc . Students will create some very simple web pages. Next, use WordPress instead of 'low level' HTML5 & CSS3. Students experience Themes, Plug-ins, configuration, backups etc. Many students create quite sophisticated sites. Previously VB.NET and VBA (excel macros) were used for programming. Negatives: * .NET requires purchase of s/w and install and .Net framework * VB syntax does not help newbies read/understand c-style syntax used in most other languages that they may experience * Simple desktop apps don't fit into web space * C# is OK, but cost, install, framework etc are still an issue Pluses: * Simple to learn. Useful code. Allows students to automate excel, or have little trouble writing a small scripts or even manage to write a simple stored procedure (they also do some DB work in other units) So, any suggestions on which language you think would be best in such circumstances? (The reason I'm asking this question here is that many people in my workplace have set ideas that haven't changed in years (decades?)). Thanks, Peter
thing is like whatever
