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Headphones

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  • S Slacker007

    Wow! I rather liked this one: https://soundcloud.com/ravibee/trying-to-be-gilmour[^]

    R Offline
    R Offline
    Ravi Bhavnani
    wrote on last edited by
    #51

    Thanks.  You might enjoy the video[^] I created for this song. /ravi

    My new year resolution: 2048 x 1536 Home | Articles | My .NET bits | Freeware ravib(at)ravib(dot)com

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    • L Lost User

      Colin Mullikin wrote:

      After re-reading the whole page on (The?) Audio Transparency, it seems they don't actually do active noise cancellation (or at least there is no mention of it). They rely on the nature of it being an in-ear headphone to block out ambient noise, but they can, as you say, amplify that ambient noise so that you can hear it.

      Yeah I thought their description was more oriented that way, but it does noise cancelation as well. Go back to the main page where the "Audio Transparency" is. They say "Hear the world around you, or swipe to mute it". Trust me, they are cancelling the ambient sound if you set it that way. I am not sure how effective it is, but it is there. So little bit of info I haven't said yet, but I work for Starkey Hearing Technologies who recently announced a partnership with Bragi. As an an engineer who works (and plays with) hearing aids, trust me in that the noise cancellation has very little to do with being in the ear to block. There is massive engineering in the feature. In fact, here at Starkey we have different features around it even. For example, picture yourself driving down the road with your window partially open. There is a loud wind noise coming from it. The right ear is however not receiving the same wind attenuation and the signals received can be used to filter out the undesired wind noise in the left ear (and even the right but with a different filter of course). Honestly, I think most of the Noise Cancelation headphones I see are cheating. They are using over the ear headphones to reduce any filtering they in fact need to do. While it works, they end up very bulky. A small hearing aid must have the calculations of the cancellation signal much more accurate.

      Computers have been intelligent for a long time now. It just so happens that the program writers are about as effective as a room full of monkeys trying to crank out a copy of Hamlet. The interesting thing about software is it can not reproduce, until it can.

      C Offline
      C Offline
      Colin Mullikin
      wrote on last edited by
      #52

      Yes, I know quite a bit of technology goes in to active noise cancellation, but I also know that a decent pair of in-ear headphones (I own these[^]) can do a pretty good job of muting the outside world with only good sleeve design and no audio processing.

      The United States invariably does the right thing, after having exhausted every other alternative. -Winston Churchill America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between. -Oscar Wilde Wow, even the French showed a little more spine than that before they got their sh*t pushed in.[^] -Colin Mullikin

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      • M megaadam

        I need a pair of headphones! And I had to resist a powerful impulse to put HPQOTD as a subject... My multinational megacorp employer has decide it will be a magical productivity boost to move all departments into large open offices, where images from Orson Welles' The Trial[^] come to my mind. I am extremely sensitive to noise (cannot concentrate) and on bad days the first solution I think of is a decent XXL baseball bat. The second idea, to constantly walk around to remind colleagues of their acoustically pollutive behavior will soon make me the black sheep of the office floor. So I often listen to music, whale-song, ocean surf etc in my cheapo headphones. Not good enuff. I can distinguish seven conversations through the soundtrack. The "noise-cancelling" models from BOSE etc are not doing much to human noises so I think I really need something that blocks noise out mechanically. So they need to be super tight and extremely comfortable. No contradiction there eh! Cordless would be nifty but arent they often suffering from crackling etc? I would like decent sound quality but mega-hifi is not important. Suggestions, ideas, your experiences? Or even mental techniques? Thanks

        Life is too shor

        J Offline
        J Offline
        Julijan Sribar
        wrote on last edited by
        #53

        Hi, I have purchased a pair of these[^] few years ago for the same reason and they proved excellent. The only drawback is that they are tight so it takes time to get used to them and in warm ambient you will probably sweat under cans. You may check user reviews at Amazon before the purchase. Actually, any better closed-type headphones should help. Hope this helps, Julijan

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        • M megaadam

          I need a pair of headphones! And I had to resist a powerful impulse to put HPQOTD as a subject... My multinational megacorp employer has decide it will be a magical productivity boost to move all departments into large open offices, where images from Orson Welles' The Trial[^] come to my mind. I am extremely sensitive to noise (cannot concentrate) and on bad days the first solution I think of is a decent XXL baseball bat. The second idea, to constantly walk around to remind colleagues of their acoustically pollutive behavior will soon make me the black sheep of the office floor. So I often listen to music, whale-song, ocean surf etc in my cheapo headphones. Not good enuff. I can distinguish seven conversations through the soundtrack. The "noise-cancelling" models from BOSE etc are not doing much to human noises so I think I really need something that blocks noise out mechanically. So they need to be super tight and extremely comfortable. No contradiction there eh! Cordless would be nifty but arent they often suffering from crackling etc? I would like decent sound quality but mega-hifi is not important. Suggestions, ideas, your experiences? Or even mental techniques? Thanks

          Life is too shor

          9 Offline
          9 Offline
          9082365
          wrote on last edited by
          #54

          Of course, there are certain hazards[^] accompanying noise cancelling!

          I am not a number. I am a ... no, wait!

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          • R Ravi Bhavnani

            Sure, help yourself! :-D  https://soundcloud.com/ravibee[^] /ravi

            My new year resolution: 2048 x 1536 Home | Articles | My .NET bits | Freeware ravib(at)ravib(dot)com

            M Offline
            M Offline
            MKJCP
            wrote on last edited by
            #55

            I paid you a compliment but my message is marked as potential spam and awaiting review. :wtf:

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            • R Ravi Bhavnani

              Sure, help yourself! :-D  https://soundcloud.com/ravibee[^] /ravi

              My new year resolution: 2048 x 1536 Home | Articles | My .NET bits | Freeware ravib(at)ravib(dot)com

              M Offline
              M Offline
              MKJCP
              wrote on last edited by
              #56

              That's very cool, Ravi. Listened to several. Got Slow Blues in A going now, sweet. It's not good though as it makes me want to leave my desk, go home and crank up the amp. Been too long since I have drenched myself in the warm river of tube distortion. :thumbsup:

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              • M megaadam

                I need a pair of headphones! And I had to resist a powerful impulse to put HPQOTD as a subject... My multinational megacorp employer has decide it will be a magical productivity boost to move all departments into large open offices, where images from Orson Welles' The Trial[^] come to my mind. I am extremely sensitive to noise (cannot concentrate) and on bad days the first solution I think of is a decent XXL baseball bat. The second idea, to constantly walk around to remind colleagues of their acoustically pollutive behavior will soon make me the black sheep of the office floor. So I often listen to music, whale-song, ocean surf etc in my cheapo headphones. Not good enuff. I can distinguish seven conversations through the soundtrack. The "noise-cancelling" models from BOSE etc are not doing much to human noises so I think I really need something that blocks noise out mechanically. So they need to be super tight and extremely comfortable. No contradiction there eh! Cordless would be nifty but arent they often suffering from crackling etc? I would like decent sound quality but mega-hifi is not important. Suggestions, ideas, your experiences? Or even mental techniques? Thanks

                Life is too shor

                U Offline
                U Offline
                User 10342306
                wrote on last edited by
                #57

                I also have the same problem. Ended up picking up a pair of Audiotechnica Ath-anc 9b over ear. Just as good as Bose and half the price. I also quit my job and left the noisy startup I was working at!

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                • M megaadam

                  I need a pair of headphones! And I had to resist a powerful impulse to put HPQOTD as a subject... My multinational megacorp employer has decide it will be a magical productivity boost to move all departments into large open offices, where images from Orson Welles' The Trial[^] come to my mind. I am extremely sensitive to noise (cannot concentrate) and on bad days the first solution I think of is a decent XXL baseball bat. The second idea, to constantly walk around to remind colleagues of their acoustically pollutive behavior will soon make me the black sheep of the office floor. So I often listen to music, whale-song, ocean surf etc in my cheapo headphones. Not good enuff. I can distinguish seven conversations through the soundtrack. The "noise-cancelling" models from BOSE etc are not doing much to human noises so I think I really need something that blocks noise out mechanically. So they need to be super tight and extremely comfortable. No contradiction there eh! Cordless would be nifty but arent they often suffering from crackling etc? I would like decent sound quality but mega-hifi is not important. Suggestions, ideas, your experiences? Or even mental techniques? Thanks

                  Life is too shor

                  S Offline
                  S Offline
                  Snorri Kristjansson
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #58

                  I have these at work [^] but the noise cancellation is not enough to block the noise from coworkers so I listen to ocean sounds also when I use the headphones [^]. But the main problem for me and those headphones is that they are to hot to wear for long periods. At home I have these [^] and can work for hours on end listening to ocean sounds at lowish volume - just enought to block my loud wife and children :)

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                  • M MKJCP

                    That's very cool, Ravi. Listened to several. Got Slow Blues in A going now, sweet. It's not good though as it makes me want to leave my desk, go home and crank up the amp. Been too long since I have drenched myself in the warm river of tube distortion. :thumbsup:

                    R Offline
                    R Offline
                    Ravi Bhavnani
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #59

                    MKJCP wrote:

                    It's not good though as it makes me want to leave my desk, go home and crank up the amp. Been too long since I have drenched myself in the warm river of tube distortion.

                    Ha ha!  Thanks! :) /ravi

                    My new year resolution: 2048 x 1536 Home | Articles | My .NET bits | Freeware ravib(at)ravib(dot)com

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                    • M megaadam

                      I need a pair of headphones! And I had to resist a powerful impulse to put HPQOTD as a subject... My multinational megacorp employer has decide it will be a magical productivity boost to move all departments into large open offices, where images from Orson Welles' The Trial[^] come to my mind. I am extremely sensitive to noise (cannot concentrate) and on bad days the first solution I think of is a decent XXL baseball bat. The second idea, to constantly walk around to remind colleagues of their acoustically pollutive behavior will soon make me the black sheep of the office floor. So I often listen to music, whale-song, ocean surf etc in my cheapo headphones. Not good enuff. I can distinguish seven conversations through the soundtrack. The "noise-cancelling" models from BOSE etc are not doing much to human noises so I think I really need something that blocks noise out mechanically. So they need to be super tight and extremely comfortable. No contradiction there eh! Cordless would be nifty but arent they often suffering from crackling etc? I would like decent sound quality but mega-hifi is not important. Suggestions, ideas, your experiences? Or even mental techniques? Thanks

                      Life is too shor

                      J Offline
                      J Offline
                      Jon Rynn
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #60

                      go to soma.fm, there are a bunch of channels, but by far the best for me is groovesalad, almost no vocals, nice, relaxing music with a bit of a beat. Also, spend at least $50 on a good pair of in-ear earphones, groovesalad will block most everything out (I got some bower and wilkins 200 dollar earphones, but you might not be that picky)

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                      • M megaadam

                        I need a pair of headphones! And I had to resist a powerful impulse to put HPQOTD as a subject... My multinational megacorp employer has decide it will be a magical productivity boost to move all departments into large open offices, where images from Orson Welles' The Trial[^] come to my mind. I am extremely sensitive to noise (cannot concentrate) and on bad days the first solution I think of is a decent XXL baseball bat. The second idea, to constantly walk around to remind colleagues of their acoustically pollutive behavior will soon make me the black sheep of the office floor. So I often listen to music, whale-song, ocean surf etc in my cheapo headphones. Not good enuff. I can distinguish seven conversations through the soundtrack. The "noise-cancelling" models from BOSE etc are not doing much to human noises so I think I really need something that blocks noise out mechanically. So they need to be super tight and extremely comfortable. No contradiction there eh! Cordless would be nifty but arent they often suffering from crackling etc? I would like decent sound quality but mega-hifi is not important. Suggestions, ideas, your experiences? Or even mental techniques? Thanks

                        Life is too shor

                        K Offline
                        K Offline
                        Kirk 10389821
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #61

                        I found the large shell soft foam style for shooting to be the best if you wear them a long time. I too cannot use noise cancellation headphones, they produce a cycle hum that drives me batty (The good BOSE ones, in this case). But the ones I have for shooting work nice. Although, coming into the office with those, some shooting glasses, fatigues, and a long package... Could get you "searched" or otherwise cause a panic. (You might even get an offer to be an Uber driver in MI, LOL)

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                        • M megaadam

                          I need a pair of headphones! And I had to resist a powerful impulse to put HPQOTD as a subject... My multinational megacorp employer has decide it will be a magical productivity boost to move all departments into large open offices, where images from Orson Welles' The Trial[^] come to my mind. I am extremely sensitive to noise (cannot concentrate) and on bad days the first solution I think of is a decent XXL baseball bat. The second idea, to constantly walk around to remind colleagues of their acoustically pollutive behavior will soon make me the black sheep of the office floor. So I often listen to music, whale-song, ocean surf etc in my cheapo headphones. Not good enuff. I can distinguish seven conversations through the soundtrack. The "noise-cancelling" models from BOSE etc are not doing much to human noises so I think I really need something that blocks noise out mechanically. So they need to be super tight and extremely comfortable. No contradiction there eh! Cordless would be nifty but arent they often suffering from crackling etc? I would like decent sound quality but mega-hifi is not important. Suggestions, ideas, your experiences? Or even mental techniques? Thanks

                          Life is too shor

                          S Offline
                          S Offline
                          Slow Eddie
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #62

                          Whale song? Ocean Surf? Pink Noise? You guys must be from the West Coast! It's not your earphones it is what you are listening to! Crank up some ACDC, James Gang (Thirds album - made loud to be played loud),The Who (Who's next would be favorite), Derek and the Dominoes, Neil Young, etc. (you get my drift...):cool: You won't hear anything else while listening. Or for some time after you stop for that matter. ;P Because music activates a different part of your brain than speech and logic it dose not interfere with your productivity. I went to BestBuy and got some "JAM" model HX-HP420A (house brand I guess - wireless) cheap and a Bluetooth usb plug-in and they do the trick.

                          A giraffe is a horse spec'd by a committee and created by an Agile team...

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                          • M megaadam

                            I need a pair of headphones! And I had to resist a powerful impulse to put HPQOTD as a subject... My multinational megacorp employer has decide it will be a magical productivity boost to move all departments into large open offices, where images from Orson Welles' The Trial[^] come to my mind. I am extremely sensitive to noise (cannot concentrate) and on bad days the first solution I think of is a decent XXL baseball bat. The second idea, to constantly walk around to remind colleagues of their acoustically pollutive behavior will soon make me the black sheep of the office floor. So I often listen to music, whale-song, ocean surf etc in my cheapo headphones. Not good enuff. I can distinguish seven conversations through the soundtrack. The "noise-cancelling" models from BOSE etc are not doing much to human noises so I think I really need something that blocks noise out mechanically. So they need to be super tight and extremely comfortable. No contradiction there eh! Cordless would be nifty but arent they often suffering from crackling etc? I would like decent sound quality but mega-hifi is not important. Suggestions, ideas, your experiences? Or even mental techniques? Thanks

                            Life is too shor

                            M Offline
                            M Offline
                            Member 3941408
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #63

                            I have used a combination of Pioneer SE-NC31C-K earbuds and an app called SimplyNoise (available as a webpage too) to block out ambient noises so I can concentrate. The ear tips make a decent mechanical seal and the noise canceling is very effective, especially at slightly higher volume. A fairly low volume is all that is needed to block out most conversation while still being able to hear people addressing me directly.

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                            • M megaadam

                              I need a pair of headphones! And I had to resist a powerful impulse to put HPQOTD as a subject... My multinational megacorp employer has decide it will be a magical productivity boost to move all departments into large open offices, where images from Orson Welles' The Trial[^] come to my mind. I am extremely sensitive to noise (cannot concentrate) and on bad days the first solution I think of is a decent XXL baseball bat. The second idea, to constantly walk around to remind colleagues of their acoustically pollutive behavior will soon make me the black sheep of the office floor. So I often listen to music, whale-song, ocean surf etc in my cheapo headphones. Not good enuff. I can distinguish seven conversations through the soundtrack. The "noise-cancelling" models from BOSE etc are not doing much to human noises so I think I really need something that blocks noise out mechanically. So they need to be super tight and extremely comfortable. No contradiction there eh! Cordless would be nifty but arent they often suffering from crackling etc? I would like decent sound quality but mega-hifi is not important. Suggestions, ideas, your experiences? Or even mental techniques? Thanks

                              Life is too shor

                              L Offline
                              L Offline
                              loctrice
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #64

                              I messed around with several different types. I found some that worked, but only in the quiet office I WAS in. They don't work where I'm at now, at least not all the time. The place I work at now has low rise cubicals (they are only chest high if you're standing) and more than one department on the floor. One thing I've learned that needs to be considered is the amount of noise that escapes them. I mean, if you turn the volume up on music you can distract others, which is not ideal. You want to be listening to something loud without having it heard outside the head set (i.e. the old walkman ones won't be a good choice).

                              Elephant elephant elephant, sunshine sunshine sunshine

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                              • S Slacker007

                                Wow! I rather liked this one: https://soundcloud.com/ravibee/trying-to-be-gilmour[^]

                                T Offline
                                T Offline
                                TNCaver
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #65

                                My favorite, too. Nice, Ravi! Do you ever collaborate with folks through the interwebs?

                                If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP.

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                                • M megaadam

                                  I need a pair of headphones! And I had to resist a powerful impulse to put HPQOTD as a subject... My multinational megacorp employer has decide it will be a magical productivity boost to move all departments into large open offices, where images from Orson Welles' The Trial[^] come to my mind. I am extremely sensitive to noise (cannot concentrate) and on bad days the first solution I think of is a decent XXL baseball bat. The second idea, to constantly walk around to remind colleagues of their acoustically pollutive behavior will soon make me the black sheep of the office floor. So I often listen to music, whale-song, ocean surf etc in my cheapo headphones. Not good enuff. I can distinguish seven conversations through the soundtrack. The "noise-cancelling" models from BOSE etc are not doing much to human noises so I think I really need something that blocks noise out mechanically. So they need to be super tight and extremely comfortable. No contradiction there eh! Cordless would be nifty but arent they often suffering from crackling etc? I would like decent sound quality but mega-hifi is not important. Suggestions, ideas, your experiences? Or even mental techniques? Thanks

                                  Life is too shor

                                  O Offline
                                  O Offline
                                  Old Ed
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #66

                                  I am similar to you when it comes to noise. My office is also an open-plan to encourage "collaboration". Recently we moved to a separate, quieter space. Not perfect but much, much, better. If only people a) Didn't feel the need to babble incessantly; b) Realized and regulated the volume of their speaking voices. Over the years I spent thousands of dollars on Bose noise cancelling headphones and earbuds, Shure earbuds, and noise isolating headphones. I found that noise cancelling headphones/earbuds simply didn't reduce enough outside noise. They provided some relief but I was hoping for close to 100%. Noise isolating/attenuating headphones can remove more background noise but the fit can be extremely tight so you'll have to experiment. Look for the highest noise attenuation value you can find (in db). You'll sacrifice music quality but it doesn't sound like that would be an issue for you. Good luck!

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                                  • M megaadam

                                    I need a pair of headphones! And I had to resist a powerful impulse to put HPQOTD as a subject... My multinational megacorp employer has decide it will be a magical productivity boost to move all departments into large open offices, where images from Orson Welles' The Trial[^] come to my mind. I am extremely sensitive to noise (cannot concentrate) and on bad days the first solution I think of is a decent XXL baseball bat. The second idea, to constantly walk around to remind colleagues of their acoustically pollutive behavior will soon make me the black sheep of the office floor. So I often listen to music, whale-song, ocean surf etc in my cheapo headphones. Not good enuff. I can distinguish seven conversations through the soundtrack. The "noise-cancelling" models from BOSE etc are not doing much to human noises so I think I really need something that blocks noise out mechanically. So they need to be super tight and extremely comfortable. No contradiction there eh! Cordless would be nifty but arent they often suffering from crackling etc? I would like decent sound quality but mega-hifi is not important. Suggestions, ideas, your experiences? Or even mental techniques? Thanks

                                    Life is too shor

                                    D Offline
                                    D Offline
                                    dsrich01
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #67

                                    I had the same set of problems - I changed jobs. If the idiot managers think that everyone is like them, then they deserve to have everyone like them.

                                    1 Reply Last reply
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                                    • M megaadam

                                      I need a pair of headphones! And I had to resist a powerful impulse to put HPQOTD as a subject... My multinational megacorp employer has decide it will be a magical productivity boost to move all departments into large open offices, where images from Orson Welles' The Trial[^] come to my mind. I am extremely sensitive to noise (cannot concentrate) and on bad days the first solution I think of is a decent XXL baseball bat. The second idea, to constantly walk around to remind colleagues of their acoustically pollutive behavior will soon make me the black sheep of the office floor. So I often listen to music, whale-song, ocean surf etc in my cheapo headphones. Not good enuff. I can distinguish seven conversations through the soundtrack. The "noise-cancelling" models from BOSE etc are not doing much to human noises so I think I really need something that blocks noise out mechanically. So they need to be super tight and extremely comfortable. No contradiction there eh! Cordless would be nifty but arent they often suffering from crackling etc? I would like decent sound quality but mega-hifi is not important. Suggestions, ideas, your experiences? Or even mental techniques? Thanks

                                      Life is too shor

                                      S Offline
                                      S Offline
                                      Steve 2
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #68

                                      I like my AKG K-271 MKII for exactly that purpose - with the alternative ear pads of fluffy stuff (not the artificial leather ones), I can wear them for hours. They are self-adjusting (it does work), very comfy, and sound great (for closed-system cans, which is what you want in your scenario) They helped me survive in a game company with 30 or so people in one giant room, no walls to the kitchen area with huge coffee grinder, elevator opened directly into the room, wooden floor with some people having noisy shoes... Let me add that I am not one to crank his music up to ear damage levels. The phones do dampen outside noise somewhat. Alternatively, try soft silicone ear-plugs. Like Alpine "Sleep Soft" for only moderate reduction. Be sure not to show the packaging to your boss, there could be misunderstandings. :-D I wear those every night, so I guess you won't be uncomfortable wearing them during working hours. They last about a year if you clean them once in a while. There are similar types of ear plugs with more "discs" than two which reduce noise more, like those made for concerts. I don't remember a particular product.

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                                      • M megaadam

                                        I need a pair of headphones! And I had to resist a powerful impulse to put HPQOTD as a subject... My multinational megacorp employer has decide it will be a magical productivity boost to move all departments into large open offices, where images from Orson Welles' The Trial[^] come to my mind. I am extremely sensitive to noise (cannot concentrate) and on bad days the first solution I think of is a decent XXL baseball bat. The second idea, to constantly walk around to remind colleagues of their acoustically pollutive behavior will soon make me the black sheep of the office floor. So I often listen to music, whale-song, ocean surf etc in my cheapo headphones. Not good enuff. I can distinguish seven conversations through the soundtrack. The "noise-cancelling" models from BOSE etc are not doing much to human noises so I think I really need something that blocks noise out mechanically. So they need to be super tight and extremely comfortable. No contradiction there eh! Cordless would be nifty but arent they often suffering from crackling etc? I would like decent sound quality but mega-hifi is not important. Suggestions, ideas, your experiences? Or even mental techniques? Thanks

                                        Life is too shor

                                        P Offline
                                        P Offline
                                        patbob
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #69

                                        I have a pair of these Ultra Phones[^] and really like them. My ears don't get sore even when having them on all day, I only need to crank the music up to about 5% to drown out the conversations around me, and they have a really nice sound.

                                        We can program with only 1's, but if all you've got are zeros, you've got nothing.

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                                        • M megaadam

                                          I need a pair of headphones! And I had to resist a powerful impulse to put HPQOTD as a subject... My multinational megacorp employer has decide it will be a magical productivity boost to move all departments into large open offices, where images from Orson Welles' The Trial[^] come to my mind. I am extremely sensitive to noise (cannot concentrate) and on bad days the first solution I think of is a decent XXL baseball bat. The second idea, to constantly walk around to remind colleagues of their acoustically pollutive behavior will soon make me the black sheep of the office floor. So I often listen to music, whale-song, ocean surf etc in my cheapo headphones. Not good enuff. I can distinguish seven conversations through the soundtrack. The "noise-cancelling" models from BOSE etc are not doing much to human noises so I think I really need something that blocks noise out mechanically. So they need to be super tight and extremely comfortable. No contradiction there eh! Cordless would be nifty but arent they often suffering from crackling etc? I would like decent sound quality but mega-hifi is not important. Suggestions, ideas, your experiences? Or even mental techniques? Thanks

                                          Life is too shor

                                          T Offline
                                          T Offline
                                          T800G
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #70

                                          >whale-song, ocean surf problem detected www.youtube.com/watch?v=419wYmC8ggo

                                          M 1 Reply Last reply
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