Letting them die: parents refuse medical help for children in the name of Christ
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Have just reported them - the name gives everything away showing them to be a troll.
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”
― Christopher Hitchens
GuyThiebaut wrote:
Have just reported them
For what?
GuyThiebaut wrote:
the name gives everything away showing them to be a troll.
A stupid name but not against the rules?
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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Quote:
James 5:15 - And the prayer of faith shall save the sick
Evidence appears to suggest otherwise, I would suggest you cite scientifically valid statistics to back up your statement.
GStrad wrote:
Evidence appears to suggest otherwise,
Actually, if you look, you'll find way more examples where it would appear faith healed someone than cases like the OP posted.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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Seriously, keep your fairy tales to yourself - in my experience, they are not welcomed at Code-Project. Never in my 10 years of membership have posts like yours been received favourably. Worse yet for you, the tolerance for such material is trending downwards. Do you even know what DNFTT stands for, or why it keeps getting said to people that respond to you? Hint: it's not something to be proud of. ;)
enhzflep wrote:
Seriously, keep your fairy tales to yourself - in my experience, they are not welcomed at Code-Project.
Because the site is full of atheists and agnostics. But if you are allowed to have your atheistic view why are you mad that he is sharing the religious view? Seems very bigoted of you to not allow someone to explain the religious side of the story. :^)
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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Can we be quite clear at least that these are not mediaeval values. The history of medicine begins in that period with the monasteries creating hospitals after all. The refusal of medical treatment on the grounds of religion, which flies in the face of all scriptural logic* and church doctrine is a thoroughly modern age invention of the evangelical sects that formed in the 19th and 20th Centuries arising from an extreme reaction to the huge developments in medicine and science generally. The practice has always been condemned by the mainline Churches and denominations.
I am not a number. I am a ... no, wait!
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If I stick my genitals in a wasps nest in the name of Cornelius does that show your approval or my insanity? As previously stated, nowt in the Bible supports this stupidity. Disclosure: I am a Christian.
veni bibi saltavi
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GStrad wrote:
Evidence appears to suggest otherwise,
Actually, if you look, you'll find way more examples where it would appear faith healed someone than cases like the OP posted.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
More examples isn't a significant statistic though is it? What are the survival (or maybe full recovery rates) in the two groups - I would put a pretty large sum of money on the fact that modern medicine has a higher success rate than prayer alone. That is the whole point behind why these parents are delinquent.
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More examples isn't a significant statistic though is it? What are the survival (or maybe full recovery rates) in the two groups - I would put a pretty large sum of money on the fact that modern medicine has a higher success rate than prayer alone. That is the whole point behind why these parents are delinquent.
GStrad wrote:
That is the whole point behind why these parents are delinquent.
I can't speak for this example, but I can give several specific examples that I lived through where deciding to not listen to modern medicine and instead use "old-fashioned" techniques proved to be the better choice. You only hear about this "news" story because the child is dead/dying (didn't read the whole thing). But parents, religious and not, every single day refuse medical help that never makes the news.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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Letting them die: parents refuse medical help for children in the name of Christ[^] It seems some in Idaho belong back in the Dark Ages. Parents like these do not belong in a modern, civilized society. Let them rot in jail! Why do they get away with these medieval values in a modern society? :mad: Quote: "Idaho is one of only six states that offer a faith-based shield for felony crimes such as manslaughter."
Get me coffee and no one gets hurt!
Sad, this. I always think back to the case of Madeline Kara Neumann[^]. She died of diabetic ketoacidosis in 2008 while her holy roller parents sat around and prayed. I developed ketoacidosis in 2006 so I know a little about what this child endured before she died. The pain is unbearable. The really tragic part of it is that it's so simple to treat: Insulin and fluids. That's it. I was released from the hospital in less than 48 hours. Left untreated, it's 100% fatal. Religious faith and the ignorance it fosters has no place in the 21st (or any other) century.
Sometimes the true reward for completing a task is not the money, but instead the satisfaction of a job well done. But it's usually the money.
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GStrad wrote:
Evidence appears to suggest otherwise,
Actually, if you look, you'll find way more examples where it would appear faith healed someone than cases like the OP posted.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
"Appear" being the important word in the sentence. :)
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined." - Homer
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"Appear" being the important word in the sentence. :)
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined." - Homer
Richard Deeming wrote:
"Appear" being the important word in the sentence.
Indeed. I was attempting to not de-rail the conversation into a different topic. But I'd love to go there with you, if you dare. :-\
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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"Appear" being the important word in the sentence. :)
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined." - Homer
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Letting them die: parents refuse medical help for children in the name of Christ[^] It seems some in Idaho belong back in the Dark Ages. Parents like these do not belong in a modern, civilized society. Let them rot in jail! Why do they get away with these medieval values in a modern society? :mad: Quote: "Idaho is one of only six states that offer a faith-based shield for felony crimes such as manslaughter."
Get me coffee and no one gets hurt!
I'm ok with that... The kid dies and does not propagate the evidently rotten family genes, the parents get jailed and maybe someone learns that no, faith does not substitute medicine. Remember that we are still apes: we learn that the snake is poisonous when we see the ape who didn't know die for the bite. We learn that fire burns when we get burned by it. Want confirmation? look at children - tell them 1000 times doing something hurts and they'll do it anyway until they get hurt. It's too much time that there exist layers and layers of protection that allow the unlearned apes to survive and thrive... in the smug confidence that all the other simians are dumb. I sincerely hope in a high rise of cases like this, also I'd legally force several extremist segments of the population to actually live to what they preach. Either they drop the mask (many people are just egomaniacs which secretly do just as anybody else, except they carry political weight) or they die - so the other apes learn again what's good for their health.
GCS d--- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L- E-- W++ N++ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t++ 5? X R++ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++>+++ h--- ++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP. -- TNCaver "When you have eliminated the JavaScript, whatever remains must be an empty page." -- Mike Hankey If a coffee bean is between the Earth and the Sun, is it a Java Eclipse? -- Sascha Lefèvre /xml>
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I'm ok with that... The kid dies and does not propagate the evidently rotten family genes, the parents get jailed and maybe someone learns that no, faith does not substitute medicine. Remember that we are still apes: we learn that the snake is poisonous when we see the ape who didn't know die for the bite. We learn that fire burns when we get burned by it. Want confirmation? look at children - tell them 1000 times doing something hurts and they'll do it anyway until they get hurt. It's too much time that there exist layers and layers of protection that allow the unlearned apes to survive and thrive... in the smug confidence that all the other simians are dumb. I sincerely hope in a high rise of cases like this, also I'd legally force several extremist segments of the population to actually live to what they preach. Either they drop the mask (many people are just egomaniacs which secretly do just as anybody else, except they carry political weight) or they die - so the other apes learn again what's good for their health.
GCS d--- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L- E-- W++ N++ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t++ 5? X R++ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++>+++ h--- ++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP. -- TNCaver "When you have eliminated the JavaScript, whatever remains must be an empty page." -- Mike Hankey If a coffee bean is between the Earth and the Sun, is it a Java Eclipse? -- Sascha Lefèvre /xml>
den2k88 wrote:
the parents get jailed
Except they don't.
Quote:
... laws exempt dogmatic faith healers from prosecution ... ... those who believe that prayer is the only way to cure illness are exempted from this law ...
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined." - Homer
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Richard Deeming wrote:
"Appear" being the important word in the sentence. :)
And also why I said it would need statistically valid data to prove it either way :-).
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When a person is sick and it appears that he was healed by faith, it is simply a case of his or her immune system overcoming the disease, and religious zealots taking the credit for it.
Get me coffee and no one gets hurt!
That's a very simplistic analysis. We know from placebo studies that faith plays a very important part in healing even if it's only faith in your doctor's 'magic'. Studies have also shown that the knowledge that you are being prayed for has a significant beneficial effect in healing even for 'unbelievers'. I'm not for one second suggesting that this is proof of divine miracle but it would be foolish to dismiss out of hand something which aids the healing process just because it's not 'science'.
I am not a number. I am a ... no, wait!
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I'm ok with that... The kid dies and does not propagate the evidently rotten family genes, the parents get jailed and maybe someone learns that no, faith does not substitute medicine. Remember that we are still apes: we learn that the snake is poisonous when we see the ape who didn't know die for the bite. We learn that fire burns when we get burned by it. Want confirmation? look at children - tell them 1000 times doing something hurts and they'll do it anyway until they get hurt. It's too much time that there exist layers and layers of protection that allow the unlearned apes to survive and thrive... in the smug confidence that all the other simians are dumb. I sincerely hope in a high rise of cases like this, also I'd legally force several extremist segments of the population to actually live to what they preach. Either they drop the mask (many people are just egomaniacs which secretly do just as anybody else, except they carry political weight) or they die - so the other apes learn again what's good for their health.
GCS d--- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L- E-- W++ N++ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t++ 5? X R++ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++>+++ h--- ++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP. -- TNCaver "When you have eliminated the JavaScript, whatever remains must be an empty page." -- Mike Hankey If a coffee bean is between the Earth and the Sun, is it a Java Eclipse? -- Sascha Lefèvre /xml>
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enhzflep wrote:
Seriously, keep your fairy tales to yourself - in my experience, they are not welcomed at Code-Project.
Because the site is full of atheists and agnostics. But if you are allowed to have your atheistic view why are you mad that he is sharing the religious view? Seems very bigoted of you to not allow someone to explain the religious side of the story. :^)
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
Yep, and that's just fine. When was the last time you ever had an aethiest/agnostic knock on your door and try relentlessly to sell you the virtues of disbelief? How about the last time you saw an organization representing either of these two groups being made tax-exempt? The difference my friend, in this case, is that aethiests/ags don't bang on about it like this chap did and most particularly and humanly - people aren't irritated by the constant barrage of calls for people to live their lives according to the book of law, rather than the book of suppositions (not intended to be superstitions) that belongs to one mob or another. As a member of the peanut gallery, I look around and find some other members to be making more noise for the affirmative than the negative. I guess we're all wrong and in the wrong place... To be fair mate - its no secret that you and I have very different views on the matter - we've discussed them on more than 1 occasion. But you know what differentiates you and I from the member I replied to? The amount of unsolicited talking on the topic we each do - put together for a month, you and I still couldn't hold a torch to what this fella did in a week. Reasoned debate is one thing. Continually banging on about a particular thing is another. (am I making my point yet, by deliberately re-using the term banging-on?)
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Letting them die: parents refuse medical help for children in the name of Christ[^] It seems some in Idaho belong back in the Dark Ages. Parents like these do not belong in a modern, civilized society. Let them rot in jail! Why do they get away with these medieval values in a modern society? :mad: Quote: "Idaho is one of only six states that offer a faith-based shield for felony crimes such as manslaughter."
Get me coffee and no one gets hurt!
Seems to me that this is evolution in action; simply behavioral instead of genetic. If you let it continue, it will go away on its own. If you try to regulate it, you just make it stick around longer. Incidentally, incarceration for socially punitive purposes (rather than rehabilitative) is ACTUAL medieval philosophy.
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics." - Benjamin Disraeli
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That's a very simplistic analysis. We know from placebo studies that faith plays a very important part in healing even if it's only faith in your doctor's 'magic'. Studies have also shown that the knowledge that you are being prayed for has a significant beneficial effect in healing even for 'unbelievers'. I'm not for one second suggesting that this is proof of divine miracle but it would be foolish to dismiss out of hand something which aids the healing process just because it's not 'science'.
I am not a number. I am a ... no, wait!
9082365 wrote:
That's a very simplistic analysis. We know from placebo studies that faith plays a very important part in healing even if it's only faith in your doctor's 'magic'.
This is a common misunderstanding of the placebo effect. The placebo effect does not reflect a clinical benefit to patients, it is a form of measurement error in clinical trials due to various forms of bias (procedural bias, self-reporting, etc). Secondly, prayer and faith has not been dismissed out of hand, there have been many (probably too many, given the low plausibility) studies of intercessory prayer, overall showing very mixed results probably due to mixed methodology and publication bias.
9082365 wrote:
Studies have also shown that the knowledge that you are being prayed for has a significant beneficial effect in healing even for 'unbelievers'.
The opposite has also been observed - at least one RCT has shown that the knowledge of being prayed for was associated with a greater degree of post-operative complications. Intercessory prayer for the alleviation of ill health. - PubMed - NCBI[^]
- F
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Yep, and that's just fine. When was the last time you ever had an aethiest/agnostic knock on your door and try relentlessly to sell you the virtues of disbelief? How about the last time you saw an organization representing either of these two groups being made tax-exempt? The difference my friend, in this case, is that aethiests/ags don't bang on about it like this chap did and most particularly and humanly - people aren't irritated by the constant barrage of calls for people to live their lives according to the book of law, rather than the book of suppositions (not intended to be superstitions) that belongs to one mob or another. As a member of the peanut gallery, I look around and find some other members to be making more noise for the affirmative than the negative. I guess we're all wrong and in the wrong place... To be fair mate - its no secret that you and I have very different views on the matter - we've discussed them on more than 1 occasion. But you know what differentiates you and I from the member I replied to? The amount of unsolicited talking on the topic we each do - put together for a month, you and I still couldn't hold a torch to what this fella did in a week. Reasoned debate is one thing. Continually banging on about a particular thing is another. (am I making my point yet, by deliberately re-using the term banging-on?)
enhzflep wrote:
we've discussed them on more than 1 occasion.
To be honest, I don't ever recall that. I guess you must have responded with politeness and logic. :-D
enhzflep wrote:
to what this fella did in a week.
I see. So, it wasn't really this one post that you were responding to, it was an accumulation of other things. Thank you for explaining because I was struggling to figure out how your reaction was justified. But still, we are all allowed to share our opinion and in this post he only did it once.
enhzflep wrote:
When was the last time you ever had an aethiest/agnostic knock on your door and try relentlessly to sell you the virtues of disbelief?
I think you're trying to suggest that religious people relentlessly try to convert you? Not sure where you live but I've had plenty of people stop by my house to share a religious message. They have always been polite. I've even had people stop by and try to sell me candy bars, coupon books, or other items. In fact, it's the salespeople that are the most rude in my experience, the religious people are quite polite. :^)
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.