Welcome, Newcomer to Code Project QA : but, first, let us insult you, and down-vote your question
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The problem won't be resolved until all the old programmers are retired or dead. Us old guys are part of the pre-internet era, where you had to muscle through coding problems alone because your network of truly knowledgeable peers was quite small. Along came the internet, and we were glad that we didn't have to read endless unrelated texts to get to the solution of our problem. Google made it even simpler for us. Overall, we developed a certain work ethic regarding coding. By habit, we look for the solution BEFORE asking for help. It's a completely different mind set nowadays, and I'm willing to bet that instructors are even suggesting getting help off the internet.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013I do agree that there may be a "generational experience" aspect to this that helps explain the negative behavior of some members. The key thing, I suggest, is not to let those few who are socially destructive, set the "tone" for the process, and/or, drive other people away. And, I distinguish between being "blunt" and "forceful" in comments and interactions with newcomers, from being insulting. I have seen you give very solid technical answers in a very "blunt" way without insulting anyone, and I enjoy that aspect of your on-line persona. cheers, Bill
«There is a spectrum, from "clearly desirable behaviour," to "possibly dodgy behavior that still makes some sense," to "clearly undesirable behavior." We try to make the latter into warnings or, better, errors. But stuff that is in the middle category you don’t want to restrict unless there is a clear way to work around it.» Eric Lippert, May 14, 2008
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[^] : the comments Apparently this pattern of insulting and down-voting newcomers, and others, is just not going to stop. It literally makes me sick to see this. I made a "vow" a few years ago to express my satisfaction and appreciation for many years (14+ now) of learning here on CodeProject by taking an active role on QA. Over the last few years, I have observed a very small number of individuals who have exhibited consistent anti-social, and hostile, behavior towards newcomers, and other CP members active in answering QA questions, etc. Another disturbing pattern I have observed is that the "reputation at any cost" behavior or a few very high-rep QA posters has, in my humble opinion, had the effect of "modeling" gaming the rep system for some bright, relatively new, posters. I have observed some of the most respected, and high-ranking, members of CP, like Marc Clifton, and Pete O'Hanlon publicly express that they ceased any regular participation in QA because of the negative behavior encountered there. Other CP members who I know are very technically competent, like Nagy Vilmos, have also publicly stated they withdrew from QA because of negative behavior there. Yes, I have spoken out about what I observe in QA, many times over the years. I have reported comments, or solutions, as abusive when I thought it appropriate ... but, always "reluctantly." My respected technical peers and mentors, I think "we" can do better than this. Yes, it's "sticky:" no one wishes to see the relative (say, compared to StackOverFlow) laissez-faire ambiance of CodeProject turn into a rigid, draconian, "by the book," environment. And, we do get people posting on QA who are obviously ... or soon prove they ... are shirking homework, are, indeed, lazy, or, who are almost hopelessly confused. imho, some of those folks deserve down-voting and removal of posts asap. But, I think no one deserves being belittled, demeaned. As someone who has spent a significant percentage of his adult life living in Asia, I am aware of the possible difficulties for people whose mother-tongue is not English in using this site, and I am aware of the fact that for some Asian cultures what, for a western person, is a casual slight or "teasing," for an Asian person is much more than casual when seen through the lens of "face." I'm near the point (rep level as "Authority") where I have almost reached
This exact same person shat all over me in my newbie experiences. I posted this [^] question asking where to start with web development. At the time I was a seasoned Win32 and .Net developer. That was all. I have since added Android, a lot of SQL, and yes, lots of web to my resume. But at the time I didn't know where to start and how to make heads or tails of anything. I realize in hind site how stupid my question was. Really what I wanted was for someone to explain what items like CSS, JavaScript, HTML, ASP, PHP, jQuery, etc all meant. I didn't know what I should learn because I didn't know how they tied together or where to even begin.
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[^] : the comments Apparently this pattern of insulting and down-voting newcomers, and others, is just not going to stop. It literally makes me sick to see this. I made a "vow" a few years ago to express my satisfaction and appreciation for many years (14+ now) of learning here on CodeProject by taking an active role on QA. Over the last few years, I have observed a very small number of individuals who have exhibited consistent anti-social, and hostile, behavior towards newcomers, and other CP members active in answering QA questions, etc. Another disturbing pattern I have observed is that the "reputation at any cost" behavior or a few very high-rep QA posters has, in my humble opinion, had the effect of "modeling" gaming the rep system for some bright, relatively new, posters. I have observed some of the most respected, and high-ranking, members of CP, like Marc Clifton, and Pete O'Hanlon publicly express that they ceased any regular participation in QA because of the negative behavior encountered there. Other CP members who I know are very technically competent, like Nagy Vilmos, have also publicly stated they withdrew from QA because of negative behavior there. Yes, I have spoken out about what I observe in QA, many times over the years. I have reported comments, or solutions, as abusive when I thought it appropriate ... but, always "reluctantly." My respected technical peers and mentors, I think "we" can do better than this. Yes, it's "sticky:" no one wishes to see the relative (say, compared to StackOverFlow) laissez-faire ambiance of CodeProject turn into a rigid, draconian, "by the book," environment. And, we do get people posting on QA who are obviously ... or soon prove they ... are shirking homework, are, indeed, lazy, or, who are almost hopelessly confused. imho, some of those folks deserve down-voting and removal of posts asap. But, I think no one deserves being belittled, demeaned. As someone who has spent a significant percentage of his adult life living in Asia, I am aware of the possible difficulties for people whose mother-tongue is not English in using this site, and I am aware of the fact that for some Asian cultures what, for a western person, is a casual slight or "teasing," for an Asian person is much more than casual when seen through the lens of "face." I'm near the point (rep level as "Authority") where I have almost reached
I think the reporting system lacks the nuance to address this problem, so here's what I propose. Please send me an email (sean@codeproject.com) when you see people behaving improperly in QA -- especially if it is in the comment section (something tells me a lot of the problems occur there). I'll narrow the examples into a "Code of Conduct" we'll look at, approve, and hammer up somewhere. Someone breaks the code? Report their account and link to the question / answer where it happened. Break the code, you get an email and a timeout (temporary de-activation). Break the code repeatedly, your account may be forfeit. Seem fair enough?
Thanks, Sean Ewington CodeProject
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I do agree that there may be a "generational experience" aspect to this that helps explain the negative behavior of some members. The key thing, I suggest, is not to let those few who are socially destructive, set the "tone" for the process, and/or, drive other people away. And, I distinguish between being "blunt" and "forceful" in comments and interactions with newcomers, from being insulting. I have seen you give very solid technical answers in a very "blunt" way without insulting anyone, and I enjoy that aspect of your on-line persona. cheers, Bill
«There is a spectrum, from "clearly desirable behaviour," to "possibly dodgy behavior that still makes some sense," to "clearly undesirable behavior." We try to make the latter into warnings or, better, errors. But stuff that is in the middle category you don’t want to restrict unless there is a clear way to work around it.» Eric Lippert, May 14, 2008
BillWoodruff wrote:
I enjoy that aspect of your on-line persona.
That's not just my online persona (and that's why I walk around armed to the teeth). :)
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
-----
When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013 -
[^] : the comments Apparently this pattern of insulting and down-voting newcomers, and others, is just not going to stop. It literally makes me sick to see this. I made a "vow" a few years ago to express my satisfaction and appreciation for many years (14+ now) of learning here on CodeProject by taking an active role on QA. Over the last few years, I have observed a very small number of individuals who have exhibited consistent anti-social, and hostile, behavior towards newcomers, and other CP members active in answering QA questions, etc. Another disturbing pattern I have observed is that the "reputation at any cost" behavior or a few very high-rep QA posters has, in my humble opinion, had the effect of "modeling" gaming the rep system for some bright, relatively new, posters. I have observed some of the most respected, and high-ranking, members of CP, like Marc Clifton, and Pete O'Hanlon publicly express that they ceased any regular participation in QA because of the negative behavior encountered there. Other CP members who I know are very technically competent, like Nagy Vilmos, have also publicly stated they withdrew from QA because of negative behavior there. Yes, I have spoken out about what I observe in QA, many times over the years. I have reported comments, or solutions, as abusive when I thought it appropriate ... but, always "reluctantly." My respected technical peers and mentors, I think "we" can do better than this. Yes, it's "sticky:" no one wishes to see the relative (say, compared to StackOverFlow) laissez-faire ambiance of CodeProject turn into a rigid, draconian, "by the book," environment. And, we do get people posting on QA who are obviously ... or soon prove they ... are shirking homework, are, indeed, lazy, or, who are almost hopelessly confused. imho, some of those folks deserve down-voting and removal of posts asap. But, I think no one deserves being belittled, demeaned. As someone who has spent a significant percentage of his adult life living in Asia, I am aware of the possible difficulties for people whose mother-tongue is not English in using this site, and I am aware of the fact that for some Asian cultures what, for a western person, is a casual slight or "teasing," for an Asian person is much more than casual when seen through the lens of "face." I'm near the point (rep level as "Authority") where I have almost reached
> Marc Clifton... publicly express that they ceased any regular participation in QA because of the negative behavior encountered there. Actually, I don't believe I ever said that. The reason I don't participate in QA is because of the inane questions, of which your link is a great example. You might ask why is it inane? Because it clearly demonstrates a lack of basic programming skills and because it smells of homework. I suspect that this is a person taking a computer programming class, doesn't grok anything, and has a very simple homework example. God forbid this was a task given by his/her employer. So I will respectfully disagree with you -- in my particular experience, the disrespectful behavior has more often than not come from the very people that have posted their question, in answer to a legitimate reply. Marc
Imperative to Functional Programming Succinctly Contributors Wanted for Higher Order Programming Project! Learning to code with python is like learning to swim with those little arm floaties. It gives you undeserved confidence and will eventually drown you. - DangerBunny
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I think the reporting system lacks the nuance to address this problem, so here's what I propose. Please send me an email (sean@codeproject.com) when you see people behaving improperly in QA -- especially if it is in the comment section (something tells me a lot of the problems occur there). I'll narrow the examples into a "Code of Conduct" we'll look at, approve, and hammer up somewhere. Someone breaks the code? Report their account and link to the question / answer where it happened. Break the code, you get an email and a timeout (temporary de-activation). Break the code repeatedly, your account may be forfeit. Seem fair enough?
Thanks, Sean Ewington CodeProject
I doubt that will work. People with technical prowess are frequently terrible when dealing with people (at least in my limited experience). If you disable their accounts, most of the Authority accounts will get wiped out. (there are exceptions obviously, I've noticed a couple in my time here, I'm sure everyone knows who I mean)
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BillWoodruff wrote:
most respected, and high-ranking, members of CP, like Marc Clifton, and Pete O'Hanlon, as well as other CP members like Nagy Vilmos
Brilliant. :thumbsup:
LOL - that's what I thought too :-)
Regards, Nish
Website: www.voidnish.com Blog: voidnish.wordpress.com
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I think the reporting system lacks the nuance to address this problem, so here's what I propose. Please send me an email (sean@codeproject.com) when you see people behaving improperly in QA -- especially if it is in the comment section (something tells me a lot of the problems occur there). I'll narrow the examples into a "Code of Conduct" we'll look at, approve, and hammer up somewhere. Someone breaks the code? Report their account and link to the question / answer where it happened. Break the code, you get an email and a timeout (temporary de-activation). Break the code repeatedly, your account may be forfeit. Seem fair enough?
Thanks, Sean Ewington CodeProject
It's kinda like the elephant in the room, huh :-) No one wants to mention him by name. But really it's just one guy, one single person behind all this unrest! I know you guys don't want to lose a high-value contributor, but you also gotta consider if he's causing more damage than he's doing good here. Also, maybe he's just a nice guy but with a not so socially compatible outer temperament. Perhaps, a few nice words from you (in private) would help here?
Regards, Nish
Website: www.voidnish.com Blog: voidnish.wordpress.com
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> Marc Clifton... publicly express that they ceased any regular participation in QA because of the negative behavior encountered there. Actually, I don't believe I ever said that. The reason I don't participate in QA is because of the inane questions, of which your link is a great example. You might ask why is it inane? Because it clearly demonstrates a lack of basic programming skills and because it smells of homework. I suspect that this is a person taking a computer programming class, doesn't grok anything, and has a very simple homework example. God forbid this was a task given by his/her employer. So I will respectfully disagree with you -- in my particular experience, the disrespectful behavior has more often than not come from the very people that have posted their question, in answer to a legitimate reply. Marc
Imperative to Functional Programming Succinctly Contributors Wanted for Higher Order Programming Project! Learning to code with python is like learning to swim with those little arm floaties. It gives you undeserved confidence and will eventually drown you. - DangerBunny
Personally speaking, if I was relaxing on a weekend, and someone posted a homework question, I'd do it for them. With explanations. Who am I to judge how other people pursue their academics? :-)
Regards, Nish
Website: www.voidnish.com Blog: voidnish.wordpress.com
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It's kinda like the elephant in the room, huh :-) No one wants to mention him by name. But really it's just one guy, one single person behind all this unrest! I know you guys don't want to lose a high-value contributor, but you also gotta consider if he's causing more damage than he's doing good here. Also, maybe he's just a nice guy but with a not so socially compatible outer temperament. Perhaps, a few nice words from you (in private) would help here?
Regards, Nish
Website: www.voidnish.com Blog: voidnish.wordpress.com
Nish Nishant wrote:
Also, maybe he's just a nice guy but with a not so socially compatible outer temperament. Perhaps, a few nice words from you (in private) would help here?
:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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Please note he said "others like Nagy". This did not necessarily include Nagy in the "respected" group but had him in another group which by boolean analysis is therefore not respected. However, I do have respect for Nagy anyway.
- I would love to change the world, but they won’t give me the source code.
Forogar wrote:
However, I do have respect for Nagy anyway.
But will you have respect for him in the morning?
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"As far as we know, our computer has never had an undetected error." - Weisert
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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I've seen that too. For me, I'm always reluctant to post a question because of that exact reason. Same goes for answering. I've had the situation where I answered the question, the person in question realized he should put more detail and does so and my answer is downvoted later on because it doesn't "answer" the OP's (new) question. I'll not claim to never make a mistake in answering, but at least I try to be helpful. I'm always curious why everyone is against "homework" questions though. I don't really care as long as that person proves he put in some work already to get it done (has done his/her own research), which many of "professional" people don't do either :-) Don't give up on answering QA's in a descent manner, if the one's giving the good (behavioral) examples disappear, who knows what will happen ;-).
V.
(MQOTD rules and previous solutions)
Homework is supposed to be just that - and assuming the instructor isn't trying to be an ass, the learning is in the struggle. So - when I see a question that says "do my homework for me" I usually bypass it - it's usually addressed already, anyway. On the other hand, if they seem to be work and have just gotten stuck on something then I prefer to give the a nudge or even a push in the right direction so that they can get the answer but still learn it. There are certainly nuances to this. And, as mentioned elsewhere in this thread, there are some that seem to scream out "Do My Work For Me So I Get Paid For Your Efforts". Definitely a bypass. Q&A - if it's really done right - is a forum for teaching and not just answering. That's the good stuff - especially when they recognize what you've done is lasting.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"As far as we know, our computer has never had an undetected error." - Weisert
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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> Marc Clifton... publicly express that they ceased any regular participation in QA because of the negative behavior encountered there. Actually, I don't believe I ever said that. The reason I don't participate in QA is because of the inane questions, of which your link is a great example. You might ask why is it inane? Because it clearly demonstrates a lack of basic programming skills and because it smells of homework. I suspect that this is a person taking a computer programming class, doesn't grok anything, and has a very simple homework example. God forbid this was a task given by his/her employer. So I will respectfully disagree with you -- in my particular experience, the disrespectful behavior has more often than not come from the very people that have posted their question, in answer to a legitimate reply. Marc
Imperative to Functional Programming Succinctly Contributors Wanted for Higher Order Programming Project! Learning to code with python is like learning to swim with those little arm floaties. It gives you undeserved confidence and will eventually drown you. - DangerBunny
Hi Marc, I apologize if I mis-characteraized your words; I do have a very clear memory of you describing why you had withdrawn from QA from years ago, but, unfortunately, I did not save a link to that statement (on the Lounge). cheers, Bill
«There is a spectrum, from "clearly desirable behaviour," to "possibly dodgy behavior that still makes some sense," to "clearly undesirable behavior." We try to make the latter into warnings or, better, errors. But stuff that is in the middle category you don’t want to restrict unless there is a clear way to work around it.» Eric Lippert, May 14, 2008
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I think the reporting system lacks the nuance to address this problem, so here's what I propose. Please send me an email (sean@codeproject.com) when you see people behaving improperly in QA -- especially if it is in the comment section (something tells me a lot of the problems occur there). I'll narrow the examples into a "Code of Conduct" we'll look at, approve, and hammer up somewhere. Someone breaks the code? Report their account and link to the question / answer where it happened. Break the code, you get an email and a timeout (temporary de-activation). Break the code repeatedly, your account may be forfeit. Seem fair enough?
Thanks, Sean Ewington CodeProject
I would appreciate any effort to address this recurring negative pattern of on-line behavior in QA. I've said this before (in posts to Suggs&Buggs): I think requiring the question poster to check off such basic key points of information about their post as (off the top-of-my-head examples): Language: C#, C++, JavaScript, Ruby, Python, Swift, Rust, Go OS : Windows, Mac, Linux, Android .NET FrameWork: 2, 3, 4, 4.5 .NET Stack: WinForms, WPF, ASP, MVC IDE : VS 2012, VS2013, VS 2015, Eclipse before they can post the question ... would contribute to "grounding the questions" and eliminating the frequent tea-leaf reading going on to figure out what the OP is talking about. I believe that might also serve to constrain some of the off-topic sniping by responders. cheers, Bill
«There is a spectrum, from "clearly desirable behaviour," to "possibly dodgy behavior that still makes some sense," to "clearly undesirable behavior." We try to make the latter into warnings or, better, errors. But stuff that is in the middle category you don’t want to restrict unless there is a clear way to work around it.» Eric Lippert, May 14, 2008
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Forogar wrote:
However, I do have respect for Nagy anyway.
But will you have respect for him in the morning?
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"As far as we know, our computer has never had an undetected error." - Weisert
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
-
I think the reporting system lacks the nuance to address this problem, so here's what I propose. Please send me an email (sean@codeproject.com) when you see people behaving improperly in QA -- especially if it is in the comment section (something tells me a lot of the problems occur there). I'll narrow the examples into a "Code of Conduct" we'll look at, approve, and hammer up somewhere. Someone breaks the code? Report their account and link to the question / answer where it happened. Break the code, you get an email and a timeout (temporary de-activation). Break the code repeatedly, your account may be forfeit. Seem fair enough?
Thanks, Sean Ewington CodeProject
For an oiled up mankini freak, you have some cracking ideas!
veni bibi saltavi
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Hi Marc, I apologize if I mis-characteraized your words; I do have a very clear memory of you describing why you had withdrawn from QA from years ago, but, unfortunately, I did not save a link to that statement (on the Lounge). cheers, Bill
«There is a spectrum, from "clearly desirable behaviour," to "possibly dodgy behavior that still makes some sense," to "clearly undesirable behavior." We try to make the latter into warnings or, better, errors. But stuff that is in the middle category you don’t want to restrict unless there is a clear way to work around it.» Eric Lippert, May 14, 2008
BillWoodruff wrote:
I do have a very clear memory of you describing why you had withdrawn from QA from years ago
Well, your memory is probably better than mine! :) Marc
Imperative to Functional Programming Succinctly Contributors Wanted for Higher Order Programming Project! Learning to code with python is like learning to swim with those little arm floaties. It gives you undeserved confidence and will eventually drown you. - DangerBunny
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Personally speaking, if I was relaxing on a weekend, and someone posted a homework question, I'd do it for them. With explanations. Who am I to judge how other people pursue their academics? :-)
Regards, Nish
Website: www.voidnish.com Blog: voidnish.wordpress.com
Nish Nishant wrote:
if I was relaxing on a weekend, and someone posted a homework question, I'd do it for them. With explanations. Who am I to judge how other people pursue their academics?
Same here, but then I get razzed by the folks here, haha. Marc
Imperative to Functional Programming Succinctly Contributors Wanted for Higher Order Programming Project! Learning to code with python is like learning to swim with those little arm floaties. It gives you undeserved confidence and will eventually drown you. - DangerBunny
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[^] : the comments Apparently this pattern of insulting and down-voting newcomers, and others, is just not going to stop. It literally makes me sick to see this. I made a "vow" a few years ago to express my satisfaction and appreciation for many years (14+ now) of learning here on CodeProject by taking an active role on QA. Over the last few years, I have observed a very small number of individuals who have exhibited consistent anti-social, and hostile, behavior towards newcomers, and other CP members active in answering QA questions, etc. Another disturbing pattern I have observed is that the "reputation at any cost" behavior or a few very high-rep QA posters has, in my humble opinion, had the effect of "modeling" gaming the rep system for some bright, relatively new, posters. I have observed some of the most respected, and high-ranking, members of CP, like Marc Clifton, and Pete O'Hanlon publicly express that they ceased any regular participation in QA because of the negative behavior encountered there. Other CP members who I know are very technically competent, like Nagy Vilmos, have also publicly stated they withdrew from QA because of negative behavior there. Yes, I have spoken out about what I observe in QA, many times over the years. I have reported comments, or solutions, as abusive when I thought it appropriate ... but, always "reluctantly." My respected technical peers and mentors, I think "we" can do better than this. Yes, it's "sticky:" no one wishes to see the relative (say, compared to StackOverFlow) laissez-faire ambiance of CodeProject turn into a rigid, draconian, "by the book," environment. And, we do get people posting on QA who are obviously ... or soon prove they ... are shirking homework, are, indeed, lazy, or, who are almost hopelessly confused. imho, some of those folks deserve down-voting and removal of posts asap. But, I think no one deserves being belittled, demeaned. As someone who has spent a significant percentage of his adult life living in Asia, I am aware of the possible difficulties for people whose mother-tongue is not English in using this site, and I am aware of the fact that for some Asian cultures what, for a western person, is a casual slight or "teasing," for an Asian person is much more than casual when seen through the lens of "face." I'm near the point (rep level as "Authority") where I have almost reached
While I'm certainly not disagreeing with anything you wrote, if one's goal as a newcomer is to get berated by a clique, I'd say the biggest offender has gotta be Stack Overflow. I'm not saying they're not valuable, I often find great answers on there, but the only time I'm on there is after following links from Google--I've actually given up on the idea of posting anything there myself. And this is coming from someone who's been on the net since '93 or so.
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While I'm certainly not disagreeing with anything you wrote, if one's goal as a newcomer is to get berated by a clique, I'd say the biggest offender has gotta be Stack Overflow. I'm not saying they're not valuable, I often find great answers on there, but the only time I'm on there is after following links from Google--I've actually given up on the idea of posting anything there myself. And this is coming from someone who's been on the net since '93 or so.
I think he's saying SO is pretty bad on that front and now CP is heading in that direction.
Regards, Nish
Website: www.voidnish.com Blog: voidnish.wordpress.com
