How many of you believe in alien life?
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Brit wrote: The Star Trek idea of multiple races of roughly equivalent technology is next to impossible on a statistical basis; Not really. It becomes impossible only if you consider that all civilizations end after a while. If they never end but just keep improving technologically, socially and culturally; it means that as time increases in the forward direction, then the chances of two intelligent races meeting each other keeps increasing substantially. If humans survive for the next 100 million years I am pretty sure we'd encounter a minimum of 3 intelligent races elsewhere. Nish
Author of the romantic comedy Summer Love and Some more Cricket [New Win] Review by Shog9 Click here for review[NW]
The key in my statement was "roughly equivalent technology". What I was saying is this: The universe needs to form stars and solar systems and there needs to be a buildup of some crucial heavy atoms before life can form. This takes some time. Right now, the universe is about 13 billion years old. I'll assume for a moment that conditions were right for intelligent life to form after about 12 billion years. Now, if we encounter an alien life form, we have to ask: how long ago did they reach a level of civilization equivalent to present-day earth? The answer would be anywhere from (a) their civilization is currently at the same level as earth's, and (b) their civilization reached earth-like civilization 1 billion years ago. It could be anywhere in between. Now, imagine a random number generator picking a number between 0 and 1 billion. Is it likely to be close to 0? No. The numbers are likely to be something like: 834 million, 45 million, 460 million. Those numbers represent the the number of years the alien civilization had to progress beyond our own. To say that we discover an alien race which has similar technology and civilization would mean the number would have to be somewhere around 500 or less (i.e. 500 years ahead of us or less). Statistically unlikely. Further, the "elder" race would seem almost magical and would have virtually limitless power compared to our own. One of the premises of Star Trek is that races are roughly equivalent in power. In other words, they'd be within a couple hundred years of each other in terms of technological advancement. (Note: once races encounter each other and technology transfer occurs, the technology difference between the races would narrow significantly.) ------------------------------------------ "What happened in that Rhode Island club is shocking. To think that over a hundred people would attend a Great White concert." - The Onion
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The key in my statement was "roughly equivalent technology". What I was saying is this: The universe needs to form stars and solar systems and there needs to be a buildup of some crucial heavy atoms before life can form. This takes some time. Right now, the universe is about 13 billion years old. I'll assume for a moment that conditions were right for intelligent life to form after about 12 billion years. Now, if we encounter an alien life form, we have to ask: how long ago did they reach a level of civilization equivalent to present-day earth? The answer would be anywhere from (a) their civilization is currently at the same level as earth's, and (b) their civilization reached earth-like civilization 1 billion years ago. It could be anywhere in between. Now, imagine a random number generator picking a number between 0 and 1 billion. Is it likely to be close to 0? No. The numbers are likely to be something like: 834 million, 45 million, 460 million. Those numbers represent the the number of years the alien civilization had to progress beyond our own. To say that we discover an alien race which has similar technology and civilization would mean the number would have to be somewhere around 500 or less (i.e. 500 years ahead of us or less). Statistically unlikely. Further, the "elder" race would seem almost magical and would have virtually limitless power compared to our own. One of the premises of Star Trek is that races are roughly equivalent in power. In other words, they'd be within a couple hundred years of each other in terms of technological advancement. (Note: once races encounter each other and technology transfer occurs, the technology difference between the races would narrow significantly.) ------------------------------------------ "What happened in that Rhode Island club is shocking. To think that over a hundred people would attend a Great White concert." - The Onion
Brit wrote: To say that we discover an alien race which has similar technology and civilization would mean the number would have to be somewhere around 500 or less (i.e. 500 years ahead of us or less). Statistically unlikely. Ah, okay. I got you now. Brit wrote: (Note: once races encounter each other and technology transfer occurs, the technology difference between the races would narrow significantly.) Assuming the other race is developed enough to assimilate that technology. The basic issue here is how we define intelligence. Will a race that has been intelligent for a million years consider us intelligent? Are we evolved enough to be considered intelligent by species that have had millions of years head start on us? I doubt so. The saddest part is that we have drastically reduced all hope of further evolution now. Perhaps we should not have developed civilization and culture so early in our evolution history. Maybe if we had delayed it by a million years or so humans (or whatever we are then) would probably have had intelligence levels that would be able to achieve things which we cannot even conceive properly now. Tha scariest scenario is one where an intelligent race comes somewhere near the solar system, observes us and then leaves thinking we are just some kind of developed apes. That'd be the saddest cruelest thing that could happen to mankind :( Nish
Author of the romantic comedy Summer Love and Some more Cricket [New Win] Review by Shog9 Click here for review[NW]
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There are billions and billions of stars stars in our galaxy and there are billions of galaxies like ours out there. Only a baby would say (if it knew how to speak of course) that earth is the only planet with life. Yet I find that there are unbelievers everywhere. Just wanted to know how of you believe there are alien life forms out there. The others (if they decide to participate in this thread) please give valid reasonable points. And kindly dont mention religion, god and brit spears. Nish
Author of the romantic comedy Summer Love and Some more Cricket [New Win] Review by Shog9 Click here for review[NW]
Nishant S wrote: brit spears. I didn't realize that the Brits still use spears. Didn't we give them their guns back after we kicked them out of the colonies? Anyone who doesn't believe in aliens should join me for a tour of the bars around here about closing time. Alien intelligence may not exist, but the lifeforms are certainly real. The odd thing is that, come closing time, they're not nearly as unattractive as science fiction writers have made them out to be... some of them are kinda cute after a few dozen beers. Seriously, though, it's hard to imagine that all that real estate out there serves no other purpose than to decorate our nighttime sky. If there is a God directing the Universe, it would seem to be a waste of Her talent to focus entirely on one insignificant corner of it. If not, it is naive to assume that the fortuitous accident that led to the evolution of intelligent life here would happen only here and nowhere else in the cosmos. In either case, it makes no sense to base any conclusion on the fact that we've detected no sign of other intelligent species thus far. We've only had the capacity to contact others for a few decades, a mere blink of an eye in the history of the Universe. Indeed, it would be more surprising if we had proof so early in our development! I, for one, feel certain that others exist, or will in time evolve, elsewhere in our reality. Whether they have actually visited us is very questionable, but as to their existence, I have little doubt. "Please don't put cigarette butts in the urinal. It makes them soggy and hard to light" - Sign in a Bullhead City, AZ Restroom
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Brit wrote: To say that we discover an alien race which has similar technology and civilization would mean the number would have to be somewhere around 500 or less (i.e. 500 years ahead of us or less). Statistically unlikely. Ah, okay. I got you now. Brit wrote: (Note: once races encounter each other and technology transfer occurs, the technology difference between the races would narrow significantly.) Assuming the other race is developed enough to assimilate that technology. The basic issue here is how we define intelligence. Will a race that has been intelligent for a million years consider us intelligent? Are we evolved enough to be considered intelligent by species that have had millions of years head start on us? I doubt so. The saddest part is that we have drastically reduced all hope of further evolution now. Perhaps we should not have developed civilization and culture so early in our evolution history. Maybe if we had delayed it by a million years or so humans (or whatever we are then) would probably have had intelligence levels that would be able to achieve things which we cannot even conceive properly now. Tha scariest scenario is one where an intelligent race comes somewhere near the solar system, observes us and then leaves thinking we are just some kind of developed apes. That'd be the saddest cruelest thing that could happen to mankind :( Nish
Author of the romantic comedy Summer Love and Some more Cricket [New Win] Review by Shog9 Click here for review[NW]
Nishant S wrote: The saddest part is that we have drastically reduced all hope of further evolution now. Perhaps we should not have developed civilization and culture so early in our evolution history. Maybe if we had delayed it by a million years or so humans (or whatever we are then) would probably have had intelligence levels that would be able to achieve things which we cannot even conceive properly now. Essentially what you are saying is that we should've become more intelligent before creating civilization. The flip-side is that it means that our species would spend tens or hundreds of thousands of years passing through it's current intelligence without creating civilization. It seems difficult to figure out how that could occur. Another thought about alien species: I heard somewhere that preditors are almost always smarter than their prey - i.e. perhaps being a preditor creates evolutionary pressure towards a larger, smarter brain. That's a little scary when you think about the fact that aliens are likely to evolve from preditory creatures. I wonder how true it is, though. ( Thinking out loud: Apes are omnivores. They're not really preditors in the way that cats are. Apes are probably smart because of the heavy social interaction (which is true of all the primates from humans to chimps to gorillas, but not so true of orangutans). The great cats are intelligent, social, and preditory. Dolphins are intelligent, social, and prey on fish. Dogs are smart, social, and preditors. (Wild) Pigs are smart, social, though not preditors (they eat berries, grass, small animals, etc). Elephants are social, but not preditory. And, reptiles are generally not smart nor are they very social, although they are commonly preditors. I wonder if "social" is the primary factor in developing intelligence. Certainly, navigating the social landscape requires some degree of intelligence. ) ------------------------------------------ "What happened in that Rhode Island club is shocking. To think that over a hundred people would attend a Great White concert." - The Onion
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There are billions and billions of stars stars in our galaxy and there are billions of galaxies like ours out there. Only a baby would say (if it knew how to speak of course) that earth is the only planet with life. Yet I find that there are unbelievers everywhere. Just wanted to know how of you believe there are alien life forms out there. The others (if they decide to participate in this thread) please give valid reasonable points. And kindly dont mention religion, god and brit spears. Nish
Author of the romantic comedy Summer Love and Some more Cricket [New Win] Review by Shog9 Click here for review[NW]
Nishant S wrote: And kindly dont mention religion, god and brit spears. I won't mention the singer, so I have actually fulfilled this request. Evolution is unproved, illogical, and in violation of natural law. ( There's a statement to get my post count back up ) I believe that the only way for anything to exist is that something greater makes it. The need for a Creator makes the size of space irrelevant, and gives me no reason to believe in alien life. If it exists, fine, that will not change my views on God, but I simply don't believe in life on other planets, or the face of Elvis on the surface of Mars, or any similar theories. Christian NO MATTER HOW MUCH BIG IS THE WORD SIZE ,THE DATA MUCT BE TRANSPORTED INTO THE CPU. - Vinod Sharma Anonymous wrote: OK. I read a c++ book. Or...a bit of it anyway. I'm sick of that evil looking console window. I think you are a good candidate for Visual Basic. - Nemanja Trifunovic
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Nishant S wrote: Only a baby would say that earth is the only planet with life. and only a dreamer would conclude that there Must be life on other planets based on nothing but numbers. there could be life elsewhere, but, IMO, until there's proof, nothing is lost by assuming there isn't. on the positive side, i hope there is something else out there, just because it would be totally cool to discover (until they invaded us and cut down all our corn, of course). but since i have no reason to believe, i don't. -c
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Chris Losinger wrote: there could be life elsewhere, but, IMO, until there's proof, nothing is lost by assuming there isn't. Are you sure you are talking about aliens and not god? ;) -- Sometimes I feel nobody gives me no warning Find my head is always up in the clouds in a dreamworld
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Nishant S wrote: And kindly dont mention religion, god and brit spears. I won't mention the singer, so I have actually fulfilled this request. Evolution is unproved, illogical, and in violation of natural law. ( There's a statement to get my post count back up ) I believe that the only way for anything to exist is that something greater makes it. The need for a Creator makes the size of space irrelevant, and gives me no reason to believe in alien life. If it exists, fine, that will not change my views on God, but I simply don't believe in life on other planets, or the face of Elvis on the surface of Mars, or any similar theories. Christian NO MATTER HOW MUCH BIG IS THE WORD SIZE ,THE DATA MUCT BE TRANSPORTED INTO THE CPU. - Vinod Sharma Anonymous wrote: OK. I read a c++ book. Or...a bit of it anyway. I'm sick of that evil looking console window. I think you are a good candidate for Visual Basic. - Nemanja Trifunovic
Christian Graus wrote: Evolution is unproved, illogical, and in violation of natural law. I absolutely agree. Christian Graus wrote: I believe that the only way for anything to exist is that something greater makes it. The need for a Creator makes the size of space irrelevant, and gives me no reason to believe in alien life. If it exists, fine, that will not change my views on God, but I simply don't believe in life on other planets, or the face of Elvis on the surface of Mars, or any similar theories. I don't necessarily NOT believe in life on other planets, but at the same time I have yet to see any evidence. Being a christian, I do look at the bible, but the bible says nothing about whether or not God created other planets with life on them - it neither confirms or denies their existence. So I think it would be really interesting if there was, but I haven't yet seen any proof. I guess I'll believe it when I see it. :) Ryan Being little and getting pushed around by big guys all my life I guess I compensate by pushing electrons and holes around. What a bully I am, but I do enjoy making subatomic particles hop at my bidding - Roger Wright (2nd April 2003, The Lounge)
Punctuality is only a virtue for those who aren't smart enough to think of good excuses for being late - John Nichol "Point Of Impact" -
Konstantin Vasserman wrote: But for millions of people religion is the primary reason they cannot accept the fact that the chances are that there are many alien life forms in the universe I guess so. It must be totally against their mindsets to try and accept a concept that will disagree with their religious beliefs. Konstantin Vasserman wrote: And while I am here I might as well just go ahead and mention god and Britney Spears... Uhm okay. I dont know if anyone will be insulted because you mentioned both of them in the same sentence. Nish
Author of the romantic comedy Summer Love and Some more Cricket [New Win] Review by Shog9 Click here for review[NW]
Nishant S wrote: It must be totally against their mindsets to try and accept a concept that will disagree with their religious beliefs. Not at all. I have experience of God, I have no experience of alien life. I don't believe there is a dichotomy between the two, I simply choose to believe in that which I have proof of, and tend towards disbelief of that which offers me no proof. Christian NO MATTER HOW MUCH BIG IS THE WORD SIZE ,THE DATA MUCT BE TRANSPORTED INTO THE CPU. - Vinod Sharma Anonymous wrote: OK. I read a c++ book. Or...a bit of it anyway. I'm sick of that evil looking console window. I think you are a good candidate for Visual Basic. - Nemanja Trifunovic
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Nishant S wrote: Are you saying that out of a billion billion billion billion (and possibly more) star systems out there the chances of a start having a planet with life are so low as to make the thinking of it a mere dream? we don't even know how life here got started (we really don't). if we don't know that, how can we run the numbers for any other system? sure, there could be something we would recognize as life (or life we wouldn't recognize), somewhere. and i could win the lottery (as soon as North Carolina allows one). but treating either possibility as anything more than a dream is a waste of my time and energy. -c
Image tools: ThumbNailer, Bobber, TIFFAssembler
Chris Losinger wrote: we don't even know how life here got started (we really don't). if we don't know that, how can we run the numbers for any other system? Because other life does not have to in anyway resemble our own. I think it is very short sighted of us to only be looking for life on similar planets, in similar environments. my 2 cents :)
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaMacbeth muttered: I am in blood / Stepped in so far, that should I wade no more, / Returning were as tedious as go o'er Shog9: Paul "The human happy pill" Watson
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Nishant S wrote: It must be totally against their mindsets to try and accept a concept that will disagree with their religious beliefs. Not at all. I have experience of God, I have no experience of alien life. I don't believe there is a dichotomy between the two, I simply choose to believe in that which I have proof of, and tend towards disbelief of that which offers me no proof. Christian NO MATTER HOW MUCH BIG IS THE WORD SIZE ,THE DATA MUCT BE TRANSPORTED INTO THE CPU. - Vinod Sharma Anonymous wrote: OK. I read a c++ book. Or...a bit of it anyway. I'm sick of that evil looking console window. I think you are a good candidate for Visual Basic. - Nemanja Trifunovic
Christian Graus wrote: tend towards disbelief of that which offers me no proof. Pity you cannot convey your proof of God. :)
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaMacbeth muttered: I am in blood / Stepped in so far, that should I wade no more, / Returning were as tedious as go o'er Shog9: Paul "The human happy pill" Watson
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There are billions and billions of stars stars in our galaxy and there are billions of galaxies like ours out there. Only a baby would say (if it knew how to speak of course) that earth is the only planet with life. Yet I find that there are unbelievers everywhere. Just wanted to know how of you believe there are alien life forms out there. The others (if they decide to participate in this thread) please give valid reasonable points. And kindly dont mention religion, god and brit spears. Nish
Author of the romantic comedy Summer Love and Some more Cricket [New Win] Review by Shog9 Click here for review[NW]
I would say the odds for there NOT being alien life are far worse than it being out there... somewhere. Whether it is intelliegent or not doesn't really matter. Knowing that alien organisms can survive on a world other than our own would be good enough for me:cool:
Steve McLenithan
Is Bert Evil? -
There are billions and billions of stars stars in our galaxy and there are billions of galaxies like ours out there. Only a baby would say (if it knew how to speak of course) that earth is the only planet with life. Yet I find that there are unbelievers everywhere. Just wanted to know how of you believe there are alien life forms out there. The others (if they decide to participate in this thread) please give valid reasonable points. And kindly dont mention religion, god and brit spears. Nish
Author of the romantic comedy Summer Love and Some more Cricket [New Win] Review by Shog9 Click here for review[NW]
I like to think and do think that there is other life out there, including intelligent life (though we in our infinite human wisdom may not notice that it is intelligent.) One other point is the whole Life Must Be Like Us issue which leaves a bad taste in my mouth. How dare we assume that the only possible life has to be like us (us as in life on Earth, i.e. DNA, carbon based, requires oxygen etc.)
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaMacbeth muttered: I am in blood / Stepped in so far, that should I wade no more, / Returning were as tedious as go o'er Shog9: Paul "The human happy pill" Watson
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Nishant S wrote: And kindly dont mention religion, god and brit spears. I won't mention the singer, so I have actually fulfilled this request. Evolution is unproved, illogical, and in violation of natural law. ( There's a statement to get my post count back up ) I believe that the only way for anything to exist is that something greater makes it. The need for a Creator makes the size of space irrelevant, and gives me no reason to believe in alien life. If it exists, fine, that will not change my views on God, but I simply don't believe in life on other planets, or the face of Elvis on the surface of Mars, or any similar theories. Christian NO MATTER HOW MUCH BIG IS THE WORD SIZE ,THE DATA MUCT BE TRANSPORTED INTO THE CPU. - Vinod Sharma Anonymous wrote: OK. I read a c++ book. Or...a bit of it anyway. I'm sick of that evil looking console window. I think you are a good candidate for Visual Basic. - Nemanja Trifunovic
Christian Graus wrote: Evolution is unproved, illogical, and in violation of natural law. Whats natural law? How do you see evolution as illogical? Christian Graus wrote: I simply don't believe in life on other planets What about life on other moons :). Scientists are looking closer at the moons of one of our gas giants (cant remember which one) which seems to hold heated oceans underneath a frozen sheet of ice at its surface.
Build a man a fire, and he will be warm for a day
Light a man on fire, and he will be warm for the rest of his life! -
Chris Losinger wrote: we don't even know how life here got started (we really don't). if we don't know that, how can we run the numbers for any other system? Because other life does not have to in anyway resemble our own. I think it is very short sighted of us to only be looking for life on similar planets, in similar environments. my 2 cents :)
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaMacbeth muttered: I am in blood / Stepped in so far, that should I wade no more, / Returning were as tedious as go o'er Shog9: Paul "The human happy pill" Watson
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Steve McLenithan wrote: There are examples of such OTHER life in the oceans Indeed, examples right here on Earth itself. Though to be fair to the It Must Be Like Us lot they will argue that really deep down those life forms on the bottom of the ocean are pretty similar to us in the greater scheme of things (still carbon, still cellular etc.) Thanks for the link, heard about that but never read anything on it. Strange stuff!
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaMacbeth muttered: I am in blood / Stepped in so far, that should I wade no more, / Returning were as tedious as go o'er Shog9: Paul "The human happy pill" Watson
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I like to think and do think that there is other life out there, including intelligent life (though we in our infinite human wisdom may not notice that it is intelligent.) One other point is the whole Life Must Be Like Us issue which leaves a bad taste in my mouth. How dare we assume that the only possible life has to be like us (us as in life on Earth, i.e. DNA, carbon based, requires oxygen etc.)
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaMacbeth muttered: I am in blood / Stepped in so far, that should I wade no more, / Returning were as tedious as go o'er Shog9: Paul "The human happy pill" Watson
Paul Watson wrote: How dare we assume that the only possible life has to be like us (us as in life on Earth, i.e. DNA, carbon based, requires oxygen etc.) May be we assume that because it is too great a stretch for our imaginations to believe that other forms could exist. I know novelists have made stories about electrical, plasma, silicon based life forms etc.. But for the life of me I can't imagine how they would exist or operate. (That's not to say I don't believe it possible) Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
Warning Link to the minion's animation, do not use. It's a real shame that people as stupid as you can work out how to use a computer. said by Christian Graus in the Soapbox
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There are billions and billions of stars stars in our galaxy and there are billions of galaxies like ours out there. Only a baby would say (if it knew how to speak of course) that earth is the only planet with life. Yet I find that there are unbelievers everywhere. Just wanted to know how of you believe there are alien life forms out there. The others (if they decide to participate in this thread) please give valid reasonable points. And kindly dont mention religion, god and brit spears. Nish
Author of the romantic comedy Summer Love and Some more Cricket [New Win] Review by Shog9 Click here for review[NW]
A 5 for Britney Spears as proof of alien life :laugh: Elaine :rose: The tigress is here :-D
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Steve McLenithan wrote: There are examples of such OTHER life in the oceans Indeed, examples right here on Earth itself. Though to be fair to the It Must Be Like Us lot they will argue that really deep down those life forms on the bottom of the ocean are pretty similar to us in the greater scheme of things (still carbon, still cellular etc.) Thanks for the link, heard about that but never read anything on it. Strange stuff!
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaMacbeth muttered: I am in blood / Stepped in so far, that should I wade no more, / Returning were as tedious as go o'er Shog9: Paul "The human happy pill" Watson
Paul Watson wrote: Strange stuff Yeah it be cool to "eat" boiling hot sulfates for dinner:cool:
Steve McLenithan
Is Bert Evil? -
Christian Graus wrote: tend towards disbelief of that which offers me no proof. Pity you cannot convey your proof of God. :)
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaMacbeth muttered: I am in blood / Stepped in so far, that should I wade no more, / Returning were as tedious as go o'er Shog9: Paul "The human happy pill" Watson
Paul Watson wrote: Pity you cannot convey your proof of God. I know you are joking, but how would someone prove God ? Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
Warning Link to the minion's animation, do not use. It's a real shame that people as stupid as you can work out how to use a computer. said by Christian Graus in the Soapbox
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Christian Graus wrote: tend towards disbelief of that which offers me no proof. Pity you cannot convey your proof of God. :)
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaMacbeth muttered: I am in blood / Stepped in so far, that should I wade no more, / Returning were as tedious as go o'er Shog9: Paul "The human happy pill" Watson
You're right, I can't. But HE can, and does. Christian NO MATTER HOW MUCH BIG IS THE WORD SIZE ,THE DATA MUCT BE TRANSPORTED INTO THE CPU. - Vinod Sharma Anonymous wrote: OK. I read a c++ book. Or...a bit of it anyway. I'm sick of that evil looking console window. I think you are a good candidate for Visual Basic. - Nemanja Trifunovic