How many of you believe in alien life?
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Paul Watson wrote: Apparently that is the reasoning which allows Christians to sleep at night when they know whole societies (e.g. those on Pacific islands centuries ago) are born damned, born destined for hell with no chance of being able to choose God. Because God already knows they won't choose him. I don't believe that people are born destined for hell. The bible (which is all we really have to go on) states that we all have the choice. It's just that we can't make that choice unless someone tells us about it. For people born centuries ago who weren't told about God, I just have to accept that they are going to hell, because they didn't choose God. The fact that they did not know about God doesn't really make a difference. What allows us to accept that is the belief that God has a reason for everything and is always right. BTW, predestination (the belief that we are destined to go to either heaven or hell and nothing we do will change that) is a fairly old belief, that is not really encountered any more. Certainly Christians do not believe it, for the simple reason that the bible states we have a choice. Predestination was one of the central beliefs of a variation (for want of a better word) of Christianity called Calvinism (started by a guy called Calvin, funnily enough :) and was never widely accepted. Paul Watson wrote: I wonder if in the past or future there has been or will be a soul that chooses opposite to what God forsaw? One of the qualities of God is that he knows everything and never makes mistakes, which makes this situation impossible. If it happens then God is not a god at all, but someone who makes mistakes. I'd rather believe that if there is a God, then he wouldn't make mistakes :). It's an interesting thing to think about, though :) Ryan Being little and getting pushed around by big guys all my life I guess I compensate by pushing electrons and holes around. What a bully I am, but I do enjoy making subatomic particles hop at my bidding - Roger Wright (2nd April 2003, The Lounge)
Punctuality is only a virtue for those who aren't smart enough to think of good excuses for being late - John Nichol "Point Of Impact"So what we need to do to go to heaven is basically suck up, eh? :-D It doesn't matter if we have been good all our lives. What god wants is psycophants, not good human beings. Sounds to me a very human trait indeed. Disclaimer: What I said applies to all religions, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, etc, so please don't get offended.
Regards,Rohit Sinha
...celebrating Indian spirit and Cricket. 8MB video, really cool!
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There are billions and billions of stars stars in our galaxy and there are billions of galaxies like ours out there. Only a baby would say (if it knew how to speak of course) that earth is the only planet with life. Yet I find that there are unbelievers everywhere. Just wanted to know how of you believe there are alien life forms out there. The others (if they decide to participate in this thread) please give valid reasonable points. And kindly dont mention religion, god and brit spears. Nish
Author of the romantic comedy Summer Love and Some more Cricket [New Win] Review by Shog9 Click here for review[NW]
why are all people so intersted in other lifes??:confused: all over the world there r ppl who can not find the minimum standerd of life as human being. sorry to say that there r animals that life better than them. We do not feel them we do not think about them and we think about lifes that we are not sure that they even exist. In Arabic we have a saying " what we know is better than we do not." it may not be always true but in this case i think it is...
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Nishant S wrote: I guess so. It must be totally against their mindsets to try and accept a concept that will disagree with their religious beliefs. As far as I know the bible, it doesn't say anything about life on other planets. I'm a Christian, but I have no problem with it. It would be really cool :) If people use religion (I assume here you are talking about God and Christianity) as a basis for saying there is no life other than on earth, then I don't think that they have interpreted the bible correctly. People have wrongly taught Christianity for a long time from the point that there is no life other than on earth, when the bible doesn't actually say that - it only talks about earth. Just my two cents :) Ryan Being little and getting pushed around by big guys all my life I guess I compensate by pushing electrons and holes around. What a bully I am, but I do enjoy making subatomic particles hop at my bidding - Roger Wright (2nd April 2003, The Lounge)
Punctuality is only a virtue for those who aren't smart enough to think of good excuses for being late - John Nichol "Point Of Impact"Ryan Binns wrote: I assume here you are talking about God and Christianity God and Religion (as in Islam, Hinduism, Christianity etc...) Nish
Author of the romantic comedy Summer Love and Some more Cricket [New Win] Review by Shog9 Click here for review[NW]
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Ryan Binns wrote: I assume here you are talking about God and Christianity God and Religion (as in Islam, Hinduism, Christianity etc...) Nish
Author of the romantic comedy Summer Love and Some more Cricket [New Win] Review by Shog9 Click here for review[NW]
I always smile when people act as if the only religion in the world is their own. :)
Regards,Rohit Sinha
...celebrating Indian spirit and Cricket. 8MB video, really cool!
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I always smile when people act as if the only religion in the world is their own. :)
Regards,Rohit Sinha
...celebrating Indian spirit and Cricket. 8MB video, really cool!
Rohit Sinha wrote: I always smile when people act as if the only religion in the world is their own. Me too. A lot of western christians equate religion with christianity and think that atheists are always anti-christianity rather than anti-god/religion :-) Nish
Author of the romantic comedy Summer Love and Some more Cricket [New Win] Review by Shog9 Click here for review[NW]
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It is a possibility that alien life exists, but it is also possible that for some reason it does not. My article on a reference-counted smart pointer that supports polymorphic objects and raw pointers
Thomas George wrote: It is a possibility that alien life exists, but it is also possible that for some reason it does not. Uhm did you do economics for your degree? Nish
Author of the romantic comedy Summer Love and Some more Cricket [New Win] Review by Shog9 Click here for review[NW]
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Thomas George wrote: It is a possibility that alien life exists, but it is also possible that for some reason it does not. Uhm did you do economics for your degree? Nish
Author of the romantic comedy Summer Love and Some more Cricket [New Win] Review by Shog9 Click here for review[NW]
Nishant S wrote: did you do economics for your degree? I think you meant to say Law, or International Relations, or Political Science (what an oxymoron!) or Diplomacy (if there is such a subject). :-D
Regards,Rohit Sinha
...celebrating Indian spirit and Cricket. 8MB video, really cool!
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Brit wrote: (The Star Trek idea of multiple races of roughly equivalent technology is next to impossible on a statistical basis; Not true. If you make the assumption that life needs the heavier elements to exist ( and this is a pretty safe assumption ) then life couln't have got a foothold till around the third generation of stars - I.E. it would all have began at a relative equal point in the existance of the universe. Admittedly there would probably be a 1000000 year or so overlap but even so this is still roughly the same time whem you consider the age of the universe. It is my understanding that we are searching only a very small bandwith of the available electromagnetic spectrum and concentrating of the bandwiths around the hydrogen atom. We have only recently ( since hubble ) been even able to look in the xray and gamma spectrum and are doing that more on a macro scale rather than a micro scale. And also remember that life may and probably will be abundant - intelligent life will be rather rare and probably scattered out over ranges that exceed 1000000 LY. Richard In Italy for thirty years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love; they had five hundred years of democracy and peace and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock. Orson Welles
Richard Stringer wrote: Not true. If you make the assumption that life needs the heavier elements to exist ( and this is a pretty safe assumption ) then life couln't have got a foothold till around the third generation of stars - I.E. it would all have began at a relative equal point in the existance of the universe. Admittedly there would probably be a 1000000 year or so overlap but even so this is still roughly the same time whem you consider the age of the universe. (nod) I said pretty much the same thing in this post[^]. I assumed that intelligent life could've developed about 1 billion years ago (the universe is around 13 billion years old, so I thought restricting it to the most recent 7.5% seemed plausible). The 1 million number that you used seems a little restrictive (1 million ago represents only 0.0075% of the age of the universe). In any case, a 1/2 million year head start (1/2 million is the average amount of time the alien civilization would have a head-start on us) is still an enourmous amount of time to develop technology. Side note: In comparison to the 1 million light years number, our galaxy is only 160,000 light years across. This means that if no aliens exist within 1 million light years, then no aliens exist in our galaxy. ------------------------------------------ "What happened in that Rhode Island club is shocking. To think that over a hundred people would attend a Great White concert." - The Onion
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I always smile when people act as if the only religion in the world is their own. :)
Regards,Rohit Sinha
...celebrating Indian spirit and Cricket. 8MB video, really cool!
Rohit Sinha wrote: I always smile when people act as if the only religion in the world is their own. :) I wasn't actually. It's just that I don't know enough about any other religions to be able to give a point of view. But for Christianity, the statement wasn't quite accurate, so I expanded on it and explained it. Sorry if it came across this way. It wasn't meant to :) Ryan Being little and getting pushed around by big guys all my life I guess I compensate by pushing electrons and holes around. What a bully I am, but I do enjoy making subatomic particles hop at my bidding - Roger Wright (2nd April 2003, The Lounge)
Punctuality is only a virtue for those who aren't smart enough to think of good excuses for being late - John Nichol "Point Of Impact" -
So what we need to do to go to heaven is basically suck up, eh? :-D It doesn't matter if we have been good all our lives. What god wants is psycophants, not good human beings. Sounds to me a very human trait indeed. Disclaimer: What I said applies to all religions, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, etc, so please don't get offended.
Regards,Rohit Sinha
...celebrating Indian spirit and Cricket. 8MB video, really cool!
Rohit Sinha wrote: So what we need to do to go to heaven is basically suck up, eh? I guess that's one way of putting it :-D Rohit Sinha wrote: please don't get offended. Not at all :) It takes a lot to get me offended :) Ryan Being little and getting pushed around by big guys all my life I guess I compensate by pushing electrons and holes around. What a bully I am, but I do enjoy making subatomic particles hop at my bidding - Roger Wright (2nd April 2003, The Lounge)
Punctuality is only a virtue for those who aren't smart enough to think of good excuses for being late - John Nichol "Point Of Impact" -
Ryan Binns wrote: The fact that they did not know about God doesn't really make a difference. What allows us to accept that is the belief that God has a reason for everything and is always right. But the fact remains that a human born on a remote Pacific island to which the word of God has not arrived is destined to go to hell right off the bat. In their lives they will never be told of Jesus and therefore never given the choice. As you say though God is always right, that is why that human was born on that island, it was for a reason (one maybe because God knew that even if the human had been given the choice that they would not have chosen him.) So it is a form of predestination, one determined by God. Ah well. I believe that if there is a God that those Pacific chaps would have through leading good lives be welcomed by God into his kingdom once they died. i.e. No choice necessary, just a good life.
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaMacbeth muttered: I am in blood / Stepped in so far, that should I wade no more, / Returning were as tedious as go o'er Shog9: Paul "The human happy pill" Watson
Paul Watson wrote: But the fact remains that a human born on a remote Pacific island to which the word of God has not arrived is destined to go to hell right off the bat. Not necessarily, such as if someone visits their island and tells them about it. Just because they haven't heard it yet doesn't mean that they never will. Paul Watson wrote: I believe that if there is a God that those Pacific chaps would have through leading good lives be welcomed by God into his kingdom once they died. i.e. No choice necessary, just a good life. It'd be nice hey :) Not quite what I believe, but that's ok :) Ryan Being little and getting pushed around by big guys all my life I guess I compensate by pushing electrons and holes around. What a bully I am, but I do enjoy making subatomic particles hop at my bidding - Roger Wright (2nd April 2003, The Lounge)
Punctuality is only a virtue for those who aren't smart enough to think of good excuses for being late - John Nichol "Point Of Impact" -
Thomas George wrote: It is a possibility that alien life exists, but it is also possible that for some reason it does not. Uhm did you do economics for your degree? Nish
Author of the romantic comedy Summer Love and Some more Cricket [New Win] Review by Shog9 Click here for review[NW]
Regardless, I have never given too much thought to alien life :-D It is more of a movie subject for me. Or like they say in South Park, Earth is an alien reality TV show. :-D My article on a reference-counted smart pointer that supports polymorphic objects and raw pointers
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Rohit Sinha wrote: I always smile when people act as if the only religion in the world is their own. :) I wasn't actually. It's just that I don't know enough about any other religions to be able to give a point of view. But for Christianity, the statement wasn't quite accurate, so I expanded on it and explained it. Sorry if it came across this way. It wasn't meant to :) Ryan Being little and getting pushed around by big guys all my life I guess I compensate by pushing electrons and holes around. What a bully I am, but I do enjoy making subatomic particles hop at my bidding - Roger Wright (2nd April 2003, The Lounge)
Punctuality is only a virtue for those who aren't smart enough to think of good excuses for being late - John Nichol "Point Of Impact"What I said wasn't targetted at you. I have found that in general people do this sort of thing, whatever their religion. And it's probably for the same reason that you pointed out - that they don't know enough about other religions.
Regards,Rohit Sinha
...celebrating Indian spirit and Cricket. 8MB video, really cool!
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What I said wasn't targetted at you. I have found that in general people do this sort of thing, whatever their religion. And it's probably for the same reason that you pointed out - that they don't know enough about other religions.
Regards,Rohit Sinha
...celebrating Indian spirit and Cricket. 8MB video, really cool!
Rohit Sinha wrote: What I said wasn't targetted at you. No problem :rose: Rohit Sinha wrote: I have found that in general people do this sort of thing, whatever their religion. And it's probably for the same reason that you pointed out - that they don't know enough about other religions. Absolutely :) I've found the same thing. Ryan Being little and getting pushed around by big guys all my life I guess I compensate by pushing electrons and holes around. What a bully I am, but I do enjoy making subatomic particles hop at my bidding - Roger Wright (2nd April 2003, The Lounge)
Punctuality is only a virtue for those who aren't smart enough to think of good excuses for being late - John Nichol "Point Of Impact" -
Richard Stringer wrote: Not true. If you make the assumption that life needs the heavier elements to exist ( and this is a pretty safe assumption ) then life couln't have got a foothold till around the third generation of stars - I.E. it would all have began at a relative equal point in the existance of the universe. Admittedly there would probably be a 1000000 year or so overlap but even so this is still roughly the same time whem you consider the age of the universe. (nod) I said pretty much the same thing in this post[^]. I assumed that intelligent life could've developed about 1 billion years ago (the universe is around 13 billion years old, so I thought restricting it to the most recent 7.5% seemed plausible). The 1 million number that you used seems a little restrictive (1 million ago represents only 0.0075% of the age of the universe). In any case, a 1/2 million year head start (1/2 million is the average amount of time the alien civilization would have a head-start on us) is still an enourmous amount of time to develop technology. Side note: In comparison to the 1 million light years number, our galaxy is only 160,000 light years across. This means that if no aliens exist within 1 million light years, then no aliens exist in our galaxy. ------------------------------------------ "What happened in that Rhode Island club is shocking. To think that over a hundred people would attend a Great White concert." - The Onion
Brit wrote: Side note: In comparison to the 1 million light years number, our galaxy is only 160,000 light years across. This means that if no aliens exist within 1 million light years, then no aliens exist in our galaxy. And there are how many galaxies ? :) Brit wrote: In any case, a 1/2 million year head start (1/2 million is the average amount of time the alien civilization would have a head-start on us) is still an enourmous amount of time to develop technology. You are falling into the old trap that has snared so many. Lets examine a few possibilities. (1) There is intelligent life and it has a half million year head start on us. If so and the aliens did not want us to discover their existance they would have the technology to prevent us from detecting them. If so then they may use a form of communication that we are unaware of - gravity waves - etc... If so they may be communicating with us as we speak and we are either missing it completly or are seeing it and not understaning it. Angels, UFO's, Gamma ray bursts,Pulsars etc... (2) All intelligent life arose about the same time Then we have a long time to wait due to distance involved unless the population density is pretty high. We are the top dogs in the universe. Hey - someone has to be first - why not us. The life forms are so different that what one calls communication is not a form of communication to the other. (3) There is no other intelligent life in the universe Who was it that said "God does not play dice with the universe". I just find the premise to be unacceptable. Not impossible but emotionally unacceptable. Richard In Italy for thirty years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love; they had five hundred years of democracy and peace and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock. Orson Welles
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Colin Davies wrote: I know you are joking, but how would someone prove God ? Actually I was serious. I would be very pleased if CG or any of the other believers could show me the proof that they have recieved. I don't believe there is a God, but I do think it would be a marvelous and amazing thing if there were.
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaMacbeth muttered: I am in blood / Stepped in so far, that should I wade no more, / Returning were as tedious as go o'er Shog9: Paul "The human happy pill" Watson
I don't intend to start a big discussion here, but there are proofs. :) The problem is that most people discount them before seriously taking them into consideration. The Bible is this proof, combine that with history and well-established archeological knowledge and you get 1) a book with no factual errors, which continually wins over the people who discredited it before further information was discovered 2) completely accurate prophecies clearly written well before the prophesied event, and in enough detail to make the toughest skeptic take a second glance if they actually read the whole thing 3) historical reliability of the documents themselves, including separate corroborating eyewitness accounts in certain sections 4) information about God Himself (hence the proof of God) "Yeah, and I invented the spellchecker" - fellow inventor Dan Quayle on hearing that Al Gore invented the Internet.
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I don't intend to start a big discussion here, but there are proofs. :) The problem is that most people discount them before seriously taking them into consideration. The Bible is this proof, combine that with history and well-established archeological knowledge and you get 1) a book with no factual errors, which continually wins over the people who discredited it before further information was discovered 2) completely accurate prophecies clearly written well before the prophesied event, and in enough detail to make the toughest skeptic take a second glance if they actually read the whole thing 3) historical reliability of the documents themselves, including separate corroborating eyewitness accounts in certain sections 4) information about God Himself (hence the proof of God) "Yeah, and I invented the spellchecker" - fellow inventor Dan Quayle on hearing that Al Gore invented the Internet.
#2 I don't know about. The other points though can be said about many known-fictional books. No offense, and as you mentioned lets not get into a big discussion, but the Bible is what people have written down. Those people existed, the events they tell happened, but it does not prove God, just like a book on physics does not prove physics. Even some of our modern history books can be interpreted in different ways. Just off the top of my head; But Moses parting the water (it was Moses right?), are there seperate eye witness accounts of him doing that? Did he really do it? Is it just a metaphor, are we to take it literally? Really bottom line for me is that there is no proof of God. There is proof of the events told in the Bible, but they could easily be aliens or supernatural events. Don't laugh because surely the idea of God is as wild as the idea of aliens or supernature, if not more so.
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaMacbeth muttered: I am in blood / Stepped in so far, that should I wade no more, / Returning were as tedious as go o'er Shog9: Paul "The human happy pill" Watson
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Brit wrote: Side note: In comparison to the 1 million light years number, our galaxy is only 160,000 light years across. This means that if no aliens exist within 1 million light years, then no aliens exist in our galaxy. And there are how many galaxies ? :) Brit wrote: In any case, a 1/2 million year head start (1/2 million is the average amount of time the alien civilization would have a head-start on us) is still an enourmous amount of time to develop technology. You are falling into the old trap that has snared so many. Lets examine a few possibilities. (1) There is intelligent life and it has a half million year head start on us. If so and the aliens did not want us to discover their existance they would have the technology to prevent us from detecting them. If so then they may use a form of communication that we are unaware of - gravity waves - etc... If so they may be communicating with us as we speak and we are either missing it completly or are seeing it and not understaning it. Angels, UFO's, Gamma ray bursts,Pulsars etc... (2) All intelligent life arose about the same time Then we have a long time to wait due to distance involved unless the population density is pretty high. We are the top dogs in the universe. Hey - someone has to be first - why not us. The life forms are so different that what one calls communication is not a form of communication to the other. (3) There is no other intelligent life in the universe Who was it that said "God does not play dice with the universe". I just find the premise to be unacceptable. Not impossible but emotionally unacceptable. Richard In Italy for thirty years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love; they had five hundred years of democracy and peace and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock. Orson Welles
Richard Stringer wrote: And there are how many galaxies ? Oh, I agree - there are billions of galaxies, but I'm just saying that if aliens exist, but none exist in our galaxy, then we're not "alone", but we're still very very far (on the scale of galaxies) from anyone else. That's all. Brit wrote: In any case, a 1/2 million year head start (1/2 million is the average amount of time the alien civilization would have a head-start on us) is still an enourmous amount of time to develop technology. Richard Stringer wrote: You are falling into the old trap that has snared so many. No, I don't think I've fallen "into the old trap that has snared so many". I mentioned that aliens might use another means of communication (I mentioned quantum effects) in this post[^]. In any case, my point was to show that any aliens which exist probably have vastly superior technology and civilization to ours. They would, in every sense of the word, be an "elder" race. If it turns out that we are the first intelligent race (because someone has to be first), well then, it is unlikely that we will find intelligent life - rather, other forms of intelligent life are likely to arise long after us. In short, the huge timespans involved in evolution and the age of the universe (13,000,000,000 years) versus the very short timespans involved in technology advancement (look at how our technology has advanced in the last 1000 years, which is just 1/130,000,000th of the age of the universe) means that it's extremely unlikely that two civilizations will have roughly equivalent levels of technology (unless there is technology transfer). Richard Stringer wrote: If so and the aliens did not want us to discover their existance they would have the technology to prevent us from detecting them. And maybe any advanced civilization has learned that advertizing their existence is bad for their survival (i.e. it attracts other alien civilizations which intend to harm them), so they have pursued inititives to hide their existence. ------------------------------------------ "What happened in that Rhode Island club is shocking. To think that over a hundred people would attend a Great White concert." - The Onion
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#2 I don't know about. The other points though can be said about many known-fictional books. No offense, and as you mentioned lets not get into a big discussion, but the Bible is what people have written down. Those people existed, the events they tell happened, but it does not prove God, just like a book on physics does not prove physics. Even some of our modern history books can be interpreted in different ways. Just off the top of my head; But Moses parting the water (it was Moses right?), are there seperate eye witness accounts of him doing that? Did he really do it? Is it just a metaphor, are we to take it literally? Really bottom line for me is that there is no proof of God. There is proof of the events told in the Bible, but they could easily be aliens or supernatural events. Don't laugh because surely the idea of God is as wild as the idea of aliens or supernature, if not more so.
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaMacbeth muttered: I am in blood / Stepped in so far, that should I wade no more, / Returning were as tedious as go o'er Shog9: Paul "The human happy pill" Watson
#2 is one of the biggest reasons I can say that there is proof of God. It certainly wasn't the people writing these things down that got 100% percent accuracy. Moses was the guy holding the rod, but God parted the water (twice). The problem with assuming that the events are accurate, but that the interpretations are not is that the two are so incredibly intertwined that you can't accept the truth of one without believing the other. (I also think that you wouldn't have asked this question if you had read Exodus a couple of times (or at least once recently) first. Exodus is kind of long, though. I could point you to other areas that would be less time consuming.) BTW, it looks a little bit like you are dismissing the only potential evidence that you've said you would be happy to see. I'm hoping that's not the case, but wanted to make you aware of it if it was. John "Yeah, and I invented the spellchecker" - fellow inventor Dan Quayle on hearing that Al Gore invented the Internet.
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#2 is one of the biggest reasons I can say that there is proof of God. It certainly wasn't the people writing these things down that got 100% percent accuracy. Moses was the guy holding the rod, but God parted the water (twice). The problem with assuming that the events are accurate, but that the interpretations are not is that the two are so incredibly intertwined that you can't accept the truth of one without believing the other. (I also think that you wouldn't have asked this question if you had read Exodus a couple of times (or at least once recently) first. Exodus is kind of long, though. I could point you to other areas that would be less time consuming.) BTW, it looks a little bit like you are dismissing the only potential evidence that you've said you would be happy to see. I'm hoping that's not the case, but wanted to make you aware of it if it was. John "Yeah, and I invented the spellchecker" - fellow inventor Dan Quayle on hearing that Al Gore invented the Internet.
John Fisher wrote: BTW, it looks a little bit like you are dismissing the only potential evidence that you've said you would be happy to see. I'm hoping that's not the case, but wanted to make you aware of it if it was. But I just asked you for that proof John. I asked were their any unbiased witnesses to Moses parting, both times? You did not answer that. And here is the rub; Even if there are, who says it was not a super natural phenomenon? Who says that Moses was not himself possesed of amazing powers from god knows where? The miracles do not prove Gods existance. They prove that miracles do happen. To say that all miracles are Gods doing could also be seen as taking away from human capabilities, extraordinary they may be. The only reason why you believe that "Moses was the guy holding the rod, but God parted the water" is because of what someone wrote down. I am not arguing gods existence or that these events happened. I am just arguing that the Bible is not proof of God because it is written by humans, it is a 3rd party account.
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaMacbeth muttered: I am in blood / Stepped in so far, that should I wade no more, / Returning were as tedious as go o'er Shog9: Paul "The human happy pill" Watson