For some perspective
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I'm not sure which desktop manager (Unity I think) I logged into Ubuntu with the other day but I needed to search for some files. There was no way to do it. No menu item, nothing. A quick google search gave me lots of articles of how to find files using command lines. No thanks. I finally logged back in using a different desktop manager and it was in the File menu under "Go." Microsoft may be far from perfect but I don't see any alternative that is anywhere close to as good as Microsoft. And I've been able to have a good career because of Microsoft and don't see any reason why that won't continue.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
took me a long time to switch up to win 7, but once i understood the search, being able to just press WinKey then type what i was after, that was then when i liked Win7. But to be clear, i was doing that on Mac with spotlight before (maybe 1 or 2 years before). And Im not talking about files, but like if want to get to the uninstall page. no need to go to control panel, trying to remember if it is under "Applications and Programs" or "Programs and Features". The search allows to to jump to many settings sections in about half the actions required. Then Win8, which destroyed this great feature, by separating the search into Apps/Settings and something else (i do not use 8 much), mean instead of just typing "unin" then down arrow a few times and enter. In Win8 get the impression there is nothing for "unin" because as im typing im looking left not right. they fixed this in 8.1, but how they missed that was just terrible design. but as i said near top- I had used Apple Spotlight for this all search. They might even be doing it better as i think they have aliases on many of their settings?
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GUIs are good for a few specific things, but CLIs are better at everything else. :badger: OpenVMS rules! :badger:
Whenever I am forced to use Linux I always head straight to the CLI. It is the only constant in a murky world of indifferent guis. We're philosophical about power outages here. A.C. come, A.C. go.
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Well, I must say the search function in Windows Explorer is equally bad. In that particular cesspool I also like to use a proper file management program instead. Usually go with FAR in Windows. On Linux my weapon of choice is Krusader. You're probably guessing I'm in the split-view Norton Commander camp when it comes to FMs. However, I must say that I was working on a default Ubuntu installation the other day. I really didn't have any trouble finding the search button in the Nautilus FM (i.e. Ubuntu Unity's default FM). It's just the magnifying glass icon (same as the WinExpl ribbon has). And it's even more like WinExpl ... wildcards also don't help in search terms and multiple search terms just give you more unrelated results, not less. So it's search parser is equally badly implemented. One of the many reasons I don't use Windows' Explorer. Though I would allow that the Nautilus file manager is definitely not the greatest, there are other alternatives. In particular (if you don't like a NC-like split panel) I've found Thunar and Dolphin to be much nicer to use than Nautilus/WinExpl. If I'm on a LXDE desktop (like Lubuntu) then even the cut back PCmanFM feels a lot more user friendly and powerful than those two. But really ... I would highly recommend you go with a decent NC-like FM. It brings all the benefits of a GUI program and add them onto the CLI interface. You get the very best of both worlds. What's more is that if you SSH into a remote server you can still use a TUI based FM like Midnight Commander and have the same functionality as you're used to (even when your connection only allows text, no need to RDP or VNC) - especially useful for server management (means you don't need any wasteful desktops on your server).
irneb wrote:
I would highly recommend you go with a decent NC-like FM.
I'll second that. And even third that (although I know that three is odd ;P ). Using Total Commander on Windows 7 - finds all kinds of stuff fast that Windows Explorer totally misses. And file management is just way easier and less error-prone.
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Yes, because it makes no economic sense to do so. A developer's first priority is to feed and clothe themselves and their dependents. Why would one eschew the multiverse of opportunities the ubiquity of Windows provides to do that?
I am not a number. I am a ... no, wait!
9082365 wrote:
Yes, because it makes no economic sense to do so. A developer's first priority is to feed and clothe themselves and their dependents
Exactly. My first few years out of college were spent in the Mac world although my background was Unix. Unfortunately, after that job ended, I found myself without a marketable skillset, and was lucky enough to retool for the Windows 3.1 market (yes, this was a few years back ;P ). Not knocking Macs (or Unix), but at that time and place I couldn't find a job using those skill sets. I loved both environments, but the jobs were in DOS/Windows ... and so was I. Since then? I go with market share. Got a family to support, so playing with the coolest tools takes a second priority behind having a paycheck. The great thing about the current world is that I can work in a Windows world, but can keep up knowledge in Linux, Android, etc. Computers are cheap enough that I can do what I want. :cool:
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irneb wrote:
I would highly recommend you go with a decent NC-like FM.
I'll second that. And even third that (although I know that three is odd ;P ). Using Total Commander on Windows 7 - finds all kinds of stuff fast that Windows Explorer totally misses. And file management is just way easier and less error-prone.
Agreed ... in my experience FAR and Krusader tends to search orders of magnitude faster than WinExpl or Nautilus, while also finding more relevant results and having much more control over search criteria (i.e. allow and/or and proper wildcards, as well as "actually" specifying the root search folder and not screwing your results by following its own paths like Windows does). And both then also allow you to save these searches as virtual folders - so you can repeat such searches in a click or two (or even just a button press) next time. Not to mention the selection filters in FAR is a breeze to use, while Krusader's is even better (just start typing the file name). Haven't used TC before, may give it a try in Windows (seems very similar to Krusader). While FAR is more like a traditional NC (i.e. text based inside a DOS console, like Midnight Commander for Windows) and lightweight like it's not even there - it does work well even with copy-pastes and drag-drops though, some really nifty programming went into it it seems.
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I'm not sure which desktop manager (Unity I think) I logged into Ubuntu with the other day but I needed to search for some files. There was no way to do it. No menu item, nothing. A quick google search gave me lots of articles of how to find files using command lines. No thanks. I finally logged back in using a different desktop manager and it was in the File menu under "Go." Microsoft may be far from perfect but I don't see any alternative that is anywhere close to as good as Microsoft. And I've been able to have a good career because of Microsoft and don't see any reason why that won't continue.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
I had an issue with that type of thing at first as well. I was so mad when ubuntu changed over. Eventually at the job I had to get used to windows 8 and realized that there are a lot of similarities. So to find a file in ubuntu you should be able to simply open the thinga-ma-jigger by hitting the "windows" key and type whatever you know of the file name. At least I've not had problems doing that - but I also don't have to search for files very often. I've also built my career on microsoft, but I don't have that OS at home. At the present moment I do html5 and Java on a mac, but this is the first time professionally I've had that chance. I don't really have a problem with any OS. I prefer linux at home because I'm the one making the choice, but I don't mind any of them.
Elephant elephant elephant, sunshine sunshine sunshine
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Agreed ... in my experience FAR and Krusader tends to search orders of magnitude faster than WinExpl or Nautilus, while also finding more relevant results and having much more control over search criteria (i.e. allow and/or and proper wildcards, as well as "actually" specifying the root search folder and not screwing your results by following its own paths like Windows does). And both then also allow you to save these searches as virtual folders - so you can repeat such searches in a click or two (or even just a button press) next time. Not to mention the selection filters in FAR is a breeze to use, while Krusader's is even better (just start typing the file name). Haven't used TC before, may give it a try in Windows (seems very similar to Krusader). While FAR is more like a traditional NC (i.e. text based inside a DOS console, like Midnight Commander for Windows) and lightweight like it's not even there - it does work well even with copy-pastes and drag-drops though, some really nifty programming went into it it seems.
Another fan here of TotalCommander. Small, fast, clean and customizable. And FREE upgrades forever! Searches available both in local window (crtl-s) and the universal search (Alt-F7) I gave up on file explorer back in the early 90s and never came back.
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GUIs are good for a few specific things, but CLIs are better at everything else. :badger: OpenVMS rules! :badger:
I am always happy to see someone praise OpenVMS, not to mention things like VAXset, which was very powerful in its day.:cool:
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9082365 wrote:
Yes, because it makes no economic sense to do so. A developer's first priority is to feed and clothe themselves and their dependents
Exactly. My first few years out of college were spent in the Mac world although my background was Unix. Unfortunately, after that job ended, I found myself without a marketable skillset, and was lucky enough to retool for the Windows 3.1 market (yes, this was a few years back ;P ). Not knocking Macs (or Unix), but at that time and place I couldn't find a job using those skill sets. I loved both environments, but the jobs were in DOS/Windows ... and so was I. Since then? I go with market share. Got a family to support, so playing with the coolest tools takes a second priority behind having a paycheck. The great thing about the current world is that I can work in a Windows world, but can keep up knowledge in Linux, Android, etc. Computers are cheap enough that I can do what I want. :cool:
Yup, you moved to windows when windows was the future, just like I did, but it's looking less and less like windows will be the future, in future. They're continually burning bridges in every direction. The only thing that keeps them at the top is ms office, which businesses can't live without because of retraining costs/problems -- but they've been doing their level best to ruin that, too, with their constant "great, new features" which destroy features that people are used to using (forcing "invisible retraining" that costs a fortune in time and effort). But take care now of one of the millions of tiny annoyances in linux (which are obvious to us windows guys, but seemingly transparent/unimportant to linux devs), and you'll have a foot firmly in the door.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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Yup, you moved to windows when windows was the future, just like I did, but it's looking less and less like windows will be the future, in future. They're continually burning bridges in every direction. The only thing that keeps them at the top is ms office, which businesses can't live without because of retraining costs/problems -- but they've been doing their level best to ruin that, too, with their constant "great, new features" which destroy features that people are used to using (forcing "invisible retraining" that costs a fortune in time and effort). But take care now of one of the millions of tiny annoyances in linux (which are obvious to us windows guys, but seemingly transparent/unimportant to linux devs), and you'll have a foot firmly in the door.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
Mark_Wallace wrote:
Yup, you moved to windows when windows was the future, just like I did, but it's looking less and less like windows will be the future, in future.
yup! Which is why I play with Linux and am looking at Android. I have no clue which the next major platform will be, but I will be ready to move on! At the same time, Windows is heavily entrenched in major corporations. It may fizzle ... but that could take years, even decades. So we'll keep our eyes open along with our options! :laugh:
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Yup, you moved to windows when windows was the future, just like I did, but it's looking less and less like windows will be the future, in future. They're continually burning bridges in every direction. The only thing that keeps them at the top is ms office, which businesses can't live without because of retraining costs/problems -- but they've been doing their level best to ruin that, too, with their constant "great, new features" which destroy features that people are used to using (forcing "invisible retraining" that costs a fortune in time and effort). But take care now of one of the millions of tiny annoyances in linux (which are obvious to us windows guys, but seemingly transparent/unimportant to linux devs), and you'll have a foot firmly in the door.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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Yup, you moved to windows when windows was the future, just like I did, but it's looking less and less like windows will be the future, in future. They're continually burning bridges in every direction. The only thing that keeps them at the top is ms office, which businesses can't live without because of retraining costs/problems -- but they've been doing their level best to ruin that, too, with their constant "great, new features" which destroy features that people are used to using (forcing "invisible retraining" that costs a fortune in time and effort). But take care now of one of the millions of tiny annoyances in linux (which are obvious to us windows guys, but seemingly transparent/unimportant to linux devs), and you'll have a foot firmly in the door.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
Foot firmly in the door of what? My experience with the Linux world has been that no-one wants to pay for anything. So I get to spend my precious off work time impressing a group of ex Windows guys with a GUI wrapper around an existing system function and have the snooty Linux CLI users completely ignore it. Not much incentive to build a tool like that, otherwise it would've already been done. On the topic of Microsoft and Windows dying soon, that prediction fits right up there with the annual "It's the year of the Linux desktop" statements we've all read for the the last decade or more. Replacing desktop systems with anything other than a Windows or maybe MAC PC will remain prohibitively expensive for long time due to as has been mentioned the cost of retooling different "office" type programs and retraining folks who are already using the MS Office products. I wouldn't be planning to sell my M$ stock anytime soon if I had any.
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Mark_Wallace wrote:
less and less like windows will be the future, in future.
What will take it's place, do you think? And when?
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
Lemme just check my crystal ball... Oh, wait! I'm not a fortune teller! But what I do see is that, despite the absolutely massive wumao campaign by ms (orders of magnitude larger than any they've tried to pull off in the past), the "best/safest windows ever" (according to the wumao) is becoming more and more reviled by average users and business users, not just the savvy. It's going way beyond any anti-ms stuff in the past -- but that's hardly surprising; two boner OSes in a row is five too many; and the mess they're making of ms office + the ridiculously heavy push toward cloud services (which most people and few businesses trust) is really feeding back hard (not that they're paying attention to negative feedback). The biggest problem is that they've put themselves in a position where they can't U-turn -- they can't do a "sorry about Vista; have Weven" again, because, well, you can't do that more than once without looking completely incompetent, and you certainly can't do it after pushing Two duff revisions of a product as hard as they've pushed them. They won't collapse, obviously; they're way too big. But they're forcing themselves into the same position as Big Blue, where they'll still be a household name, but not many "households" will actually use their flagship product. If linux weren't such a pile of user-unfriendly sh1te, it would have overtaken ms in more than just the server market, by now. As windows users start looking for alternatives, linux will grow, and so will the demand for the kind of user-friendliness that windows users are used to. We're entering another period where names will be made. I think that's cool -- and about time!
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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Yup, you moved to windows when windows was the future, just like I did, but it's looking less and less like windows will be the future, in future. They're continually burning bridges in every direction. The only thing that keeps them at the top is ms office, which businesses can't live without because of retraining costs/problems -- but they've been doing their level best to ruin that, too, with their constant "great, new features" which destroy features that people are used to using (forcing "invisible retraining" that costs a fortune in time and effort). But take care now of one of the millions of tiny annoyances in linux (which are obvious to us windows guys, but seemingly transparent/unimportant to linux devs), and you'll have a foot firmly in the door.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
Did wheelman570z get banned, or something? He made valid points, but when I answered, I was told that the message I was responding to didn't exist. OK, so maybe he was a tiny bit vehement (a really tiny bit; totally acceptable), but there was no bad language, and expressing opinions vehemently is what lounges are for -- and, as I say, he made valid points that are worth discussing. I feel like I've been robbed of an intelligent discussion. Oh, wait! I Have been robbed of an intelligent discussion Now I'm stuck with that bluddy ryandev! Om Mane Padme Om, and all that.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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Lemme just check my crystal ball... Oh, wait! I'm not a fortune teller! But what I do see is that, despite the absolutely massive wumao campaign by ms (orders of magnitude larger than any they've tried to pull off in the past), the "best/safest windows ever" (according to the wumao) is becoming more and more reviled by average users and business users, not just the savvy. It's going way beyond any anti-ms stuff in the past -- but that's hardly surprising; two boner OSes in a row is five too many; and the mess they're making of ms office + the ridiculously heavy push toward cloud services (which most people and few businesses trust) is really feeding back hard (not that they're paying attention to negative feedback). The biggest problem is that they've put themselves in a position where they can't U-turn -- they can't do a "sorry about Vista; have Weven" again, because, well, you can't do that more than once without looking completely incompetent, and you certainly can't do it after pushing Two duff revisions of a product as hard as they've pushed them. They won't collapse, obviously; they're way too big. But they're forcing themselves into the same position as Big Blue, where they'll still be a household name, but not many "households" will actually use their flagship product. If linux weren't such a pile of user-unfriendly sh1te, it would have overtaken ms in more than just the server market, by now. As windows users start looking for alternatives, linux will grow, and so will the demand for the kind of user-friendliness that windows users are used to. We're entering another period where names will be made. I think that's cool -- and about time!
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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I'm not sure which desktop manager (Unity I think) I logged into Ubuntu with the other day but I needed to search for some files. There was no way to do it. No menu item, nothing. A quick google search gave me lots of articles of how to find files using command lines. No thanks. I finally logged back in using a different desktop manager and it was in the File menu under "Go." Microsoft may be far from perfect but I don't see any alternative that is anywhere close to as good as Microsoft. And I've been able to have a good career because of Microsoft and don't see any reason why that won't continue.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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Mark_Wallace wrote:
What the linux community is missing is windows developers
Can't imagine why that would be! :doh:
I am not a number. I am a ... no, wait!
Because linux community is an open source community. It can't feed me. That's why.
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In default Ubuntu - In unity, you just press the windows key (or otherwise select the menu) and start typing. Unless it's been configured otherwise, it works the same way windows does. It's exactly as non-obvious as the Windows 10 approach.
pmauriks wrote:
It's exactly as non-obvious as the Windows 10 approach.
But in Windows 10 if you have the file explorer open you can search from there, which makes more sense.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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I'm not sure which desktop manager (Unity I think) I logged into Ubuntu with the other day but I needed to search for some files. There was no way to do it. No menu item, nothing. A quick google search gave me lots of articles of how to find files using command lines. No thanks. I finally logged back in using a different desktop manager and it was in the File menu under "Go." Microsoft may be far from perfect but I don't see any alternative that is anywhere close to as good as Microsoft. And I've been able to have a good career because of Microsoft and don't see any reason why that won't continue.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.