Your next iPhone could cost more...
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Just because it's "legal" doesn't mean it's right: that is tax evasion / avoidance (I'm never clear on the difference) on a massive scale using practices they probably repeat in all territories. Which means that they don't contribute to the societies they depend on to provide the customers: they don't pay for the police, fire, or other emergency services; the legal system that protects their copyrights, that prosecutes those who steal from them; the penal system that jails people that contravene. They don't pay for the armed forces, and financial systems that provide them with a more-or-less stable society to buy their products. Instead, their share of that burden falls on you, me, and everybody else who does pay taxes whether they use Apple products or not. Is that right and fair? Legality be damned - any person or company rich enough seems to make it's own law, and protest like heck when it seems that protection should be removed.
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The whole point here is that Apple colluded with the Irish government to undercut other European countries in a one-off deal that is illegal under European law. It is not legal, hence Apple being liable for an enormous tax bill. Well deserved, I say.
"If you don't fail at least 90 percent of the time, you're not aiming high enough." Alan Kay.
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Ireland and Apple agreed to a rate. Apple paid it and became the largest taxpayer in Ireland. Now... years later your lovely EU decides they want more money. How on Earth is that fair? Why would any business want to do business in Europe when they can retroactively change the rules.
In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem. ~ Ronald Reagan
Mike Mullikin wrote:
Ireland and Apple agreed to a rate.
Under European law, this is tax collusion, and is illegal. That is why this is tax evasion, rather than avoidance. The rules have not been changed retroactively.
"If you don't fail at least 90 percent of the time, you're not aiming high enough." Alan Kay.
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First of all I don't hate Europe or Europeans. I don't care for the EU and I think Europeans were silly for creating it. I believe in time they'll likely come to regret it. It may end up with big changes or dissolution. I fear it will get much worse before it gets better. Secondly, as a rule I dislike much of the US federal government (including our Senate). It's a bloated, bureaucracy that nearly always forgets it's place at home (they should be our servants) and abroad (they need to stay out of other people's business). Lastly, I don't believe for a second that Apple (or any other US corporation) is entirely innocent. They should all follow the laws, rules and regulations in every country they do business in. If they run afoul they should be punished. My problem with this huge tax bill is the retroactive nature of it. Ireland set the rate. Apple paid it. The EU coming along later and demanding more money is wrong.
In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem. ~ Ronald Reagan
As I mentioned above, it's not retroactive. Apple and the Irish government broke the European law initially by colluding to fix a one-off tax rate, giving Apple preferential treatment. That was illegal, so retroactive treatment seems entirely fair.
"If you don't fail at least 90 percent of the time, you're not aiming high enough." Alan Kay.
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As I mentioned above, it's not retroactive. Apple and the Irish government broke the European law initially by colluding to fix a one-off tax rate, giving Apple preferential treatment. That was illegal, so retroactive treatment seems entirely fair.
"If you don't fail at least 90 percent of the time, you're not aiming high enough." Alan Kay.
From what I've seen and read it's not so cut and dried about EU "law". As the years and appeals go by and lawyers get rich maybe it will become more clear. I can say from personal experience and state as fact - European governments routinely give sweet-heart tax deals and other incentives to European corporations. All things considered - this looks like a money grab. Hence my hope for a scorched Earth response.
In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem. ~ Ronald Reagan
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Because the original agreement was unfair: in 2014 Apple paid £12M taxes in the UK, on profits estimated at £2,000M because it's "head office" where tax was paid (at a rate of 0.005% instead of 36%) was in Ireland thanks to that agreement. Yes, that made it the largest tax payer in Ireland - but that's like being the person paying the most personal income tax in Greece: £20 per annum instead of £19.50! :laugh: And remember: Ireland and Greece were two of the countries that the EU had to bail out because their tax revenues weren't big enough after the crash. If Apple et al had been paying "fair" taxes instead of "legal" taxes the bail outs would have been a lot smaller...
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OriginalGriff wrote:
If Apple et al had been paying "fair" taxes instead of "legal" taxes the bail outs would have been a lot smaller...
I fail to see why's that Apple's fault though, because Ireland agreed on a rate with Apple.
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Mike Mullikin wrote:
Ireland and Apple agreed to a rate.
Under European law, this is tax collusion, and is illegal. That is why this is tax evasion, rather than avoidance. The rules have not been changed retroactively.
"If you don't fail at least 90 percent of the time, you're not aiming high enough." Alan Kay.
Rob Grainger wrote:
Under European law, this is tax collusion, and is illegal.
Didn't Ireland (as a country) not know that? When a government entity signs a deal, Apple would not have thought that they're being lured into a trap.
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Rob Grainger wrote:
Under European law, this is tax collusion, and is illegal.
Didn't Ireland (as a country) not know that? When a government entity signs a deal, Apple would not have thought that they're being lured into a trap.
Rajesh R Subramanian wrote:
Apple would not have thought that they're being lured into a trap
I laugh, I cry, the idea that Apple could be lured into a trap especially on tax laws and ruling is mind boggling. They probably spent more on tax lawyers than they paid in tax. Apple, along with most multi nationals are morally repugnant, but how anyone can expect anything else is just silly.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity RAH
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Apple should repay Ireland 13bn euros, European Commission rules - BBC News[^] That's a serious tax bill! And it seems well deserved, hopefully it'll move on to Amazon and Google, who do the same thing, apparently. That really is ridiculous: 0.005% tax rate in 2014? I'd love that for me!
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No one queuing for it in a while
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The US corporate tax rate of 35% is obnoxious. It's no wonder American companies have $2,000,000,000,000 (yep, that's 2 trillion) in off shore accounts.
In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem. ~ Ronald Reagan
better than paid for US war
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Apple should repay Ireland 13bn euros, European Commission rules - BBC News[^] That's a serious tax bill! And it seems well deserved, hopefully it'll move on to Amazon and Google, who do the same thing, apparently. That really is ridiculous: 0.005% tax rate in 2014? I'd love that for me!
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Apple should repay Ireland 13bn euros, European Commission rules - BBC News[^] That's a serious tax bill! And it seems well deserved, hopefully it'll move on to Amazon and Google, who do the same thing, apparently. That really is ridiculous: 0.005% tax rate in 2014? I'd love that for me!
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Read Apple's letter to Europe on Irish tax decision | The Verge[^] Personally I hope foreign companies and foreign governments proceed with a scorched earth reaction. Pull all European investment, shutter all European facilities, fire all European employees (based in Europe and elsewhere) , shut-down services to all European citizens / businesses and fine / tax the f*** out of all European companies operating outside of Europe. Let Europeans live with the monster they've created.
In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem. ~ Ronald Reagan
I'm with you: Europe confines with Russia so if a transatlantic market closes a Eurasian one opens. Which will break the egemony of US based companies here in Europe, kills the US market outside its own borders and break the current power structures, allowing for a greater social mobility than the one now possible.
GCS d--- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L- E-- W++ N++ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t++ 5? X R++ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++>+++ h--- ++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP. -- TNCaver When I was six, there were no ones and zeroes - only zeroes. And not all of them worked. -- Ravi Bhavnani
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Ireland and Apple agreed to a rate. Apple paid it and became the largest taxpayer in Ireland. Now... years later your lovely EU decides they want more money. How on Earth is that fair? Why would any business want to do business in Europe when they can retroactively change the rules.
In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem. ~ Ronald Reagan
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Read Apple's letter to Europe on Irish tax decision | The Verge[^] Personally I hope foreign companies and foreign governments proceed with a scorched earth reaction. Pull all European investment, shutter all European facilities, fire all European employees (based in Europe and elsewhere) , shut-down services to all European citizens / businesses and fine / tax the f*** out of all European companies operating outside of Europe. Let Europeans live with the monster they've created.
In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem. ~ Ronald Reagan
It seems that Apple intended to pay those taxes *in the US* once the tax rate went below that horrendously unfair 40% that it is now. So by "parking" that money in Ireland, they betrayed the US of A if anybody.
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Mike Mullikin wrote:
fair
What are you talking about, you're not a kindergartner - you should have no expectation that anything in real life is fair.
Of course, life is not fair. But that is (or should be) one of the purpose of the governments and institutions (at least those that claim to be democratic and serve the people): to make it more fair, to give a better prospect to those who are dealt a bad hand to start with and to avoid those with power to abuse it (too much). Obviously, they are very regularly failing at that, even in the country where they kind of have that purpose. Apple have obviously (with some help from the Irish System/Governments) abused loopholes and tax laws from different countries to pay a ridiculously low amount of taxes. Making people pay retroactively is always going to cause some kind of moral dilemma. When the "offender" was doing something legal (or not illegal) but obviously immoral (and they knew it), may be we should still make them pay. It is not the same as changing the rate when you have not tried to abuse the system by actively finding loopholes. That "could" encourage more people/companies to act in a more moral way. Or not (looking at human nature).
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If the EU forced Ireland to close whatever loophole or rate deal they have with Apple thus forcing Apple to pay more taxes going forward you wouldn't hear very much complaint (other than from Apple themselves I'm sure). It's the retroactive taxation that stinks of government corruption.
In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem. ~ Ronald Reagan
You completely misunderstand what is going on. The Commission has no say about the tax rate in Ireland. It's not the tax rate itself that is the problem. The problem is that they have decided that Apple has gotten a market-disrupting government subsidy in the form of extremely low tax rates. Or are you in favour of government subsidies for the biggest earning company in the world?
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If the EU forced Ireland to close whatever loophole or rate deal they have with Apple thus forcing Apple to pay more taxes going forward you wouldn't hear very much complaint (other than from Apple themselves I'm sure). It's the retroactive taxation that stinks of government corruption.
In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem. ~ Ronald Reagan
I'm going to the extreme here, because, it's what I do. But if a person went to a country where child prostitution was legal, does that make it any less unethical? Apple made this deal so that it wouldn't have to pay taxes in the United States, where they use the roads and other public benefits without paying their fair share because of this.
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Apple should repay Ireland 13bn euros, European Commission rules - BBC News[^] That's a serious tax bill! And it seems well deserved, hopefully it'll move on to Amazon and Google, who do the same thing, apparently. That really is ridiculous: 0.005% tax rate in 2014? I'd love that for me!
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Wow, what BS. Apple had smart lawyers, they were looking at ways to avoid paying US taxes, and that money should be in the coffers of the US gov't, and those 6000 people should be US employees. :mad: Marc
Imperative to Functional Programming Succinctly Contributors Wanted for Higher Order Programming Project! Learning to code with python is like learning to swim with those little arm floaties. It gives you undeserved confidence and will eventually drown you. - DangerBunny
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You completely misunderstand what is going on. The Commission has no say about the tax rate in Ireland. It's not the tax rate itself that is the problem. The problem is that they have decided that Apple has gotten a market-disrupting government subsidy in the form of extremely low tax rates. Or are you in favour of government subsidies for the biggest earning company in the world?
Jeroen_R wrote:
Or are you in favour of government subsidies for the biggest earning company in the world?
Not at all. but when the taxing body (in this case Ireland) sets the rate and the tax payer (in this case Apple) pays it, I don't expect a 3rd party to come in 20+ years later and demand more money. If the EU wants to force Ireland to change the rate going forward that's Ireland's business.
In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem. ~ Ronald Reagan
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If the EU forced Ireland to close whatever loophole or rate deal they have with Apple thus forcing Apple to pay more taxes going forward you wouldn't hear very much complaint (other than from Apple themselves I'm sure). It's the retroactive taxation that stinks of government corruption.
In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem. ~ Ronald Reagan
While Ireland is a sovereign nation and in theory 'should' be able to set their own tax rates to incentivize a large business concern like Apple to settle there as they did with the favorable tax status they have. They signed on to a conflicting agreement with the EU in which the have apparently surrendered part or all of that sovereignty, or so it would seem. It sounds to me like if they want to keep their good friend Apple they need to do the same thing that the Brits did and pull out of the EU and tell them to take their tax bill and shove it as Apple represents jobs and gainful employment for a large segment of the Irish population, that could be in jeopardy if Apple is forced to fork over this money. They might better be back in the good Ole USA after Trump is done with things.
