What is the position of the presidential candidates on H-1B visas ?
-
In 2014, the U.S. approved more than 370,000 H-1B applications. The flood of cheap foreign workers is killing compensation for software developers. In the DC region, I am seeing rates from the early 90's. In the 90's, rates were easily $40-80/hr. I think it is worse in the Seattle area. If we have a tech worker shortage, why are we at $40-80/hr 25 years later ? I want to know which candidate will shut this down ?
...thanks primarily to the ability to pay their imported workers on H-1B visas between 30 percent and 50 percent less than the prevailing American wage rate for that job.
...it's no surprise to discover that politics and business are familiar bedfellows, ...the list of the top 10 companies who apply for H-1B visas. In 2014, while six were Indian ... the rest were all American. Deloitte, IBM, Accenture, and Microsoft made up the remainder of the top 10, while Ernst & Young and Google sneaked into 11th and 12th places
Southern California Edison IT workers 'beyond furious' over H-1B replacements Pink Slips at Disney. But First, Training Foreign Replacements ... For you South Park fans: "They took our jobs! They took der jerbs!! Durka durr!!"
Good judgment comes from experience. Experience comes form bad judgment.
jlongo wrote:
The flood of cheap foreign workers is killing compensation for software developers
I don't see that as the cause at all. US gov stats give at least 7 million Computer jobs. And that is jobs, not demand. May 2015 National Occupational Employment and Wage Estimates[^]
jlongo wrote:
In 2014, the U.S. approved more than 370,000 H-1B applications.
I rather doubt that number. But in 2015, obviously more current, there was only 85,000 High-skilled visa applications hit record high - Apr. 13, 2015[^]
jlongo wrote:
In the 90's, rates were easily $40-80/hr
Huh? Maybe we are talking about something different. $40 and hour would be an extremely low contract rate where I am. Far as I can recall contract rates were probably always above 60 and went above 80.
jlongo wrote:
why are we at $40-80/hr 25 years later
Overall employment compensation, not just tech, have not gone up significantly for 20 years. The why and causes of that cannot be categorized to any simple reason. U.S. Income Through the Years[^]
-
I think you are falling into a logic trap. H-1Bs make labor cheap. Therefore, prevailing wages are cheap. But you are paying prevailing wages, so H-1B does not depress wages. How come so many smart people do not understand basic economics ? If you limit the availability of a commodity, it becomes more expensive. Consider, if H1-B's did not exist, the US would have less tech workers(I have no idea the real number, but my guess is in the millions). For a company to hire an IT worker, they would have to pay more. That makes the prevailing wage higher. You are still paying the prevailing wage, but American IT workers are making more money.
jlongo wrote:
(I have no idea the real number, but my guess is in the millions).
At 100,000 per year with a 5 term (normal) that is only 1 million. There are many assumptions there however starting with the primary one that all of them stay.
jlongo wrote:
but American IT workers are making more money.
H1B visa holders can apply for citizenship. Once they become a citizen they are an "American IT worker".
-
I personally know some H1Bers at Google and Facebook that are titled and paid as mid-levels that are doing the work of Senior and even Principle level developers. So yeah, they are abusing the law. :edit: Actually, I just remembered I also know a hiring manager at one of the mentioned companies that has an 'unofficial' H1B quota. :edit:
NotYourAverageGuy wrote:
and paid as mid-levels that are doing the work of Senior and even Principle level developers. So yeah, they are abusing the law.
So every other company you have worked for of know of there is nobody doing work at a higher level than their position dictates?
NotYourAverageGuy wrote:
I just remembered I also know a hiring manager at one of the mentioned companies that has an 'unofficial' H1B quot
And is it possible that that was for other reasons? Perhaps, just a possibility, due to diversity concerns?
-
No matter the outcome, I don't really see this as a big deal for software developers. Software (especially that distributed on the internet) crosses boundaries pretty freely. There is not a lot of difference between software written in the US and sold in the US versus software written in India and sold in the US. It's not like a sandwich shop where the product needs to be made where it is consumed.
I'm retired. There's a nap for that... - Harvey
H.Brydon wrote:
There is not a lot of difference between software written in the US and sold in the US versus software written in India and sold in the US.
That however is conceptual but not realistic. The fact that conceptually a programmer in India versus one in the US could do the same thing ignores completely the logistics of actually delivering a product out the door to someone that will pay for it. There are a large number of process steps in that which can and do make a difference.
-
He worked there dude.
#SupportHeForShe Government can give you nothing but what it takes from somebody else. A government big enough to give you everything you want is big enough to take everything you've got, including your freedom.-Ezra Taft Benson You must accept 1 of 2 basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe or we are not alone. Either way, the implications are staggering!-Wernher von Braun
-
It depends on how companies manage the outsourcing. Microsoft, Google, Amazon, Facebook, etc. have offices in India, Europe, Canada, etc. With constant communication, and with people from here actually going to those outsourced countries to meet the team face to face, that can help a lot.
Regards, Nish
Website: www.voidnish.com Blog: voidnish.wordpress.com
-
Nish Nishant wrote:
It depends on how companies manage the outsourcing
Naturally. Many companies fail. And of those that succeed it requires a substantial cost which many companies don't realize.
Yeah, I agree - it's not a magical fix-all-problems Visa, that's for sure :-)
Regards, Nish
Website: www.voidnish.com Blog: voidnish.wordpress.com
-
jlongo wrote:
The flood of cheap foreign workers is killing compensation for software developers
I don't see that as the cause at all. US gov stats give at least 7 million Computer jobs. And that is jobs, not demand. May 2015 National Occupational Employment and Wage Estimates[^]
jlongo wrote:
In 2014, the U.S. approved more than 370,000 H-1B applications.
I rather doubt that number. But in 2015, obviously more current, there was only 85,000 High-skilled visa applications hit record high - Apr. 13, 2015[^]
jlongo wrote:
In the 90's, rates were easily $40-80/hr
Huh? Maybe we are talking about something different. $40 and hour would be an extremely low contract rate where I am. Far as I can recall contract rates were probably always above 60 and went above 80.
jlongo wrote:
why are we at $40-80/hr 25 years later
Overall employment compensation, not just tech, have not gone up significantly for 20 years. The why and causes of that cannot be categorized to any simple reason. U.S. Income Through the Years[^]
jschell wrote:
I rather doubt that number. But in 2015, obviously more current, there was only 85,000
That's the annual limit. 85,000 Visas. Perhaps the bigger number includes people transferring or renewing, which won't really increase the count.
Regards, Nish
Website: www.voidnish.com Blog: voidnish.wordpress.com
-
jlongo wrote:
(I have no idea the real number, but my guess is in the millions).
At 100,000 per year with a 5 term (normal) that is only 1 million. There are many assumptions there however starting with the primary one that all of them stay.
jlongo wrote:
but American IT workers are making more money.
H1B visa holders can apply for citizenship. Once they become a citizen they are an "American IT worker".
jschell wrote:
H1B visa holders can apply for citizenship. Once they become a citizen they are an "American IT worker".
A large majority of H-1B workers file for permanent residency, which can take 5-10 years, and nearly all of those people eventually naturalize. It's extremely rare for people to go back, because their kids are born and raised here and so they would want to remain in the same country as their children. Not to mention that after living here for 20+ years, this is the only true home as far as they are concerned.
Regards, Nish
Website: www.voidnish.com Blog: voidnish.wordpress.com
-
jschell wrote:
H1B visa holders can apply for citizenship. Once they become a citizen they are an "American IT worker".
A large majority of H-1B workers file for permanent residency, which can take 5-10 years, and nearly all of those people eventually naturalize. It's extremely rare for people to go back, because their kids are born and raised here and so they would want to remain in the same country as their children. Not to mention that after living here for 20+ years, this is the only true home as far as they are concerned.
Regards, Nish
Website: www.voidnish.com Blog: voidnish.wordpress.com
This is what I have seen as well. I can only recall one individual that I worked with that returned to his home country.
-
H.Brydon wrote:
There is not a lot of difference between software written in the US and sold in the US versus software written in India and sold in the US.
That however is conceptual but not realistic. The fact that conceptually a programmer in India versus one in the US could do the same thing ignores completely the logistics of actually delivering a product out the door to someone that will pay for it. There are a large number of process steps in that which can and do make a difference.
It is 100% possible. My current employer does it. Our entire company of about 150 people is remote with only a small concentration of top management and IT located together in a common office. Our development, documentation, build and QA alone are spread out in 17 different timezones. We are in India, Australia, United States, Croatia, Czech Republic, Ukraine, Lithuania, several locations in Russia, UK, Thailand, Kazakhstan and one or two others that I am forgetting. We have been like this for 10 years now. We are not at all unique, most others in our market space and adjacent spaces are similarly distributed. Are there challenges? Of course, but there is nothing that can not be overcome. As a result we have an extremely low cost overhead and can hire the best talent across the globe at the lowest rates. The only H1Bs we have are actually our co-founders, one from Ukraine and one from Russia (well, they were H1Bs. They have both recently paid the government randsom and legal fees to get their green cards). I also am a co-founder of a small bootstrap start-up that is also 100% remote, but all team members are geographically located fairly close (10 people within about 2 hours of each other). We have no plan to obtain a B&M office any time soon.
-
H.Brydon wrote:
There is not a lot of difference between software written in the US and sold in the US versus software written in India and sold in the US.
That however is conceptual but not realistic. The fact that conceptually a programmer in India versus one in the US could do the same thing ignores completely the logistics of actually delivering a product out the door to someone that will pay for it. There are a large number of process steps in that which can and do make a difference.
It is 100% possible. My current employer does it. Our entire company of about 150 people is remote with only a small concentration of top management and IT located together in a common office. Our development, documentation, build and QA alone are spread out in 17 different timezones. We are in India, Australia, United States, Croatia, Czech Republic, Ukraine, Lithuania, several locations in Russia, UK, Thailand, Kazakhstan and one or two others that I am forgetting. We have been like this for 10 years now. We are not at all unique, most others in our market space and adjacent spaces are similarly distributed. Are there challenges? Of course, but there is nothing that can not be overcome. As a result we have an extremely low cost overhead and can hire the best talent across the globe at the lowest rates. The only H1Bs we have are actually our co-founders, one from Ukraine and one from Russia (well, they were H1Bs. They have both recently paid the government ransom and legal fees to get their green cards). I also am a co-founder of a small bootstrap start-up that is also 100% remote, but all team members are geographically located fairly close (10 people within about 2 hours of each other). We have no plan to obtain a B&M office any time soon.
-
This is what I have seen as well. I can only recall one individual that I worked with that returned to his home country.
-
jlongo wrote:
(I have no idea the real number, but my guess is in the millions).
At 100,000 per year with a 5 term (normal) that is only 1 million. There are many assumptions there however starting with the primary one that all of them stay.
jlongo wrote:
but American IT workers are making more money.
H1B visa holders can apply for citizenship. Once they become a citizen they are an "American IT worker".
You mean, something like what Europeans did to Americans (the real ones)? Oh wait, they actually committed a genocide so that they could become "Americans" by grabbing the native people's land and resources. Unless you look like this[^], quit whining about 'immigrantion'. Europeans are the biggest immigrants in the world, and coincidentally, they seem to have an immigration problem in Europe as well.
-
That would help, but eliminating the program would be better. The problem is the corruption and abuse of this (like every other gov't program). There probably are certain jobs that can only be performed by a handful of people in the world -- rocket motor designer, CPU chip designer, girl from Norway to work in Norway Land at Epcot, etc. So we create a program like H-1B -- so they can come in. Then the corporations figure out they can game the system, but the caps are too low. So they bribe -- er, lobby -- to get the caps raised. Eventually, we globalized wages in one of the best paying fields there is. I was making a lot of money and could change jobs easily. Now I am making 1/2 the money and my last job took 3 months to land.
"Girl from Norway to work at Norway Land at EPCOT"? What about Equal Employment Opportunity? Why not a black American from Miami? :laugh:
-
It is 100% possible. My current employer does it. Our entire company of about 150 people is remote with only a small concentration of top management and IT located together in a common office. Our development, documentation, build and QA alone are spread out in 17 different timezones. We are in India, Australia, United States, Croatia, Czech Republic, Ukraine, Lithuania, several locations in Russia, UK, Thailand, Kazakhstan and one or two others that I am forgetting. We have been like this for 10 years now. We are not at all unique, most others in our market space and adjacent spaces are similarly distributed. Are there challenges? Of course, but there is nothing that can not be overcome. As a result we have an extremely low cost overhead and can hire the best talent across the globe at the lowest rates. The only H1Bs we have are actually our co-founders, one from Ukraine and one from Russia (well, they were H1Bs. They have both recently paid the government randsom and legal fees to get their green cards). I also am a co-founder of a small bootstrap start-up that is also 100% remote, but all team members are geographically located fairly close (10 people within about 2 hours of each other). We have no plan to obtain a B&M office any time soon.
NotYourAverageGuy wrote:
We are in...Kazakhstan...
So your company is the number one exporter of potassium?
Michael Martin Australia "I controlled my laughter and simple said "No,I am very busy,so I can't write any code for you". The moment they heard this all the smiling face turned into a sad looking face and one of them farted. So I had to leave the place as soon as possible." - Mr.Prakash One Fine Saturday. 24/04/2004
-
It is 100% possible. My current employer does it. Our entire company of about 150 people is remote with only a small concentration of top management and IT located together in a common office. Our development, documentation, build and QA alone are spread out in 17 different timezones. We are in India, Australia, United States, Croatia, Czech Republic, Ukraine, Lithuania, several locations in Russia, UK, Thailand, Kazakhstan and one or two others that I am forgetting. We have been like this for 10 years now. We are not at all unique, most others in our market space and adjacent spaces are similarly distributed. Are there challenges? Of course, but there is nothing that can not be overcome. As a result we have an extremely low cost overhead and can hire the best talent across the globe at the lowest rates. The only H1Bs we have are actually our co-founders, one from Ukraine and one from Russia (well, they were H1Bs. They have both recently paid the government randsom and legal fees to get their green cards). I also am a co-founder of a small bootstrap start-up that is also 100% remote, but all team members are geographically located fairly close (10 people within about 2 hours of each other). We have no plan to obtain a B&M office any time soon.
For some reason I cannot find your response even though I have the email. The link contained within leads me just to he Soapbox. Anyway, yes, there is a joke in there pertaining to potassium. In Borat, Sacha Baron Cohen plays someone from Kazakhstan, his rendition of their national anthem states that Kazakhstan is number one exporter of potassium, all other nations have inferior potassium. I just like to post esoteric shite at times that remotely relate to a discussion.
Michael Martin Australia "I controlled my laughter and simple said "No,I am very busy,so I can't write any code for you". The moment they heard this all the smiling face turned into a sad looking face and one of them farted. So I had to leave the place as soon as possible." - Mr.Prakash One Fine Saturday. 24/04/2004
-
For some reason I cannot find your response even though I have the email. The link contained within leads me just to he Soapbox. Anyway, yes, there is a joke in there pertaining to potassium. In Borat, Sacha Baron Cohen plays someone from Kazakhstan, his rendition of their national anthem states that Kazakhstan is number one exporter of potassium, all other nations have inferior potassium. I just like to post esoteric shite at times that remotely relate to a discussion.
Michael Martin Australia "I controlled my laughter and simple said "No,I am very busy,so I can't write any code for you". The moment they heard this all the smiling face turned into a sad looking face and one of them farted. So I had to leave the place as soon as possible." - Mr.Prakash One Fine Saturday. 24/04/2004
Ahhh, OK, that makes some sense now :) For some reason, my posts that reference Kazakhstan are going directly into moderation as possible spam. I guess that there is some great potassium cartel that is spamming the world and any discussions surrounding potassium and Kazakhstan are automatically considered suspect. Who would have thought...
-
NotYourAverageGuy wrote:
We are in...Kazakhstan...
So your company is the number one exporter of potassium?
Michael Martin Australia "I controlled my laughter and simple said "No,I am very busy,so I can't write any code for you". The moment they heard this all the smiling face turned into a sad looking face and one of them farted. So I had to leave the place as soon as possible." - Mr.Prakash One Fine Saturday. 24/04/2004
I'm not sure I follow. We have a brilliant, young, QA gentleman that lives in Kazakhstan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[^]. That's how he identifies himself and his country. Since you are in/from Australia, you might know of Wagga Wagga, which is where his supervisor, a very good friend of mine and a Belgium ex-patriot, resides. Personally I know very little about that area. Is there some joke in there that I am missing?
-
Sounds like they were contractors. So they'd be employees of a company like Infosys and would work for your former company as contract developers.
Regards, Nish
Website: www.voidnish.com Blog: voidnish.wordpress.com
Regardless, they replaced American workers that were a) readily available and b) already working there, with people that essentially work for shiny rocks and elephant teeth.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
-----
You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
-----
When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013
