The Palestinian/Israeli conflict
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After a couple of our beers, you guys would be out of commission ;) "das leid schlaft in der maschine" -Einstürzende Neubauten
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BTW, i am not Palestinian, but i support them. They kill them selves so they can kill the people who have invaded their country. They are killing innocent people because they have to or else there is no way the Israelis will leave the country or give it back to the people it belongs to. The politest way I can say this is that you are a moron. I removed the word 'bloody' in order not to be rude. You think that after all this time, tomorrow the Israelis will say 'well, those Palestinians killed another child or two yesterday, and our quota is met, we're going to leave ? If someone killed my child, I would leave to. I'd leave to kill as many of the people responsible as I could and I would happily die in the effort. So no, killing children is not EVER going to make them leave, it will just turn the world's opinion against them. The religion "Islam" and "Christianity" both says to kill people who get in your religion's way ONLY. ONLY FOR RELIGIOUS PURPOSE. Wow, you *are* ignorant, aren't you ? Jesus said to love your enemies and turn the other cheek. Since Israel is a holy land, it is a religious issue. In Islam, it is called Jihad. I don't know what it's called in Christianity. That's because you're making it up. Jesus never said anything remotely similar. The Palestinan blow them selves up because they truly belive that this isn't their fault. The reason why Jewish and christians don't kill them selves is because they are either wussies or they don't truly believe that Israel is their's and know that they stole it. *grin* so you're not Palestinian but you *are* Islamic ? The people whose fault it isn't is the children who get killed, not in the cross fire, but by the design of people who, as you say, make it their religion to kill people. Christian Secrets of a happy marriage #27: Never go to bed if you are mad at each other. It's more fun to stay up and fight.
Wow, you *are* ignorant, aren't you ? Jesus said to love your enemies and turn the other cheek. In principle this is true, but let's remember that in practice, in 1982 when Ariel Sharon turned several thousand Palestinian refugees in the Sabra and Shatilla refugee camps in Lebanon over to the Christian Phalangist militia. According to CNN,
Christian militiamen started a three-day killing spree in Sabra and Shatila on September 16, 1982, after being let in by Israeli soldiers who sealed off the two camps when they occupied the western sector of the Lebanese capital. The militiamen massacred more than 1,000 men, women and children in one of the worst atrocities of Lebanon's 1975-90 civil war while the Israeli soldiers ringing the camps stood by.
So much for turning the other cheek. Individual Christians are as capable as Jews and Muslims of acts of terrorism, cruelty, and cowardice in the name of their religion. Of course, the whole terrorist bombing thing started in the 1940s when it was Zionist Jews who started planting bombs to take control of Palestine. According to Scott Perterson of the Christian Science Monitor (in a piece for ABC World News),
One of the precedents in the Middle East was set in British-run Palestine in the late 1930s and early 1940s, when the Zionist terrorist groups Irgun, Stern, and Haganah attacked British and Palestinian targets. The breakthrough came with the spectacular destruction in July 1946—less than two years before Israel was declared a state—of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem. This was the impenetrable fortress, the British military and civilian headquarters, wrapped in steel doors and barbed wire and constantly guarded. When milk churns packed with high explosives in the basement sheared the building in two, the message was sent around the world that a new nation was about to be born. Menachem Begin, who masterminded the King David attack, and later prime minister of Israel, described in his book “The Revolt” the thinking behind such acts of terrorists. “There are times when everything in you cries out: your very self-respect as a human being lies in your resistance to evil,” Mr. Begin wrote. Then, playing on Descartes’ words, he added: “We fight, therefore we are.”
It's awfully easy for
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Wow, you *are* ignorant, aren't you ? Jesus said to love your enemies and turn the other cheek. In principle this is true, but let's remember that in practice, in 1982 when Ariel Sharon turned several thousand Palestinian refugees in the Sabra and Shatilla refugee camps in Lebanon over to the Christian Phalangist militia. According to CNN,
Christian militiamen started a three-day killing spree in Sabra and Shatila on September 16, 1982, after being let in by Israeli soldiers who sealed off the two camps when they occupied the western sector of the Lebanese capital. The militiamen massacred more than 1,000 men, women and children in one of the worst atrocities of Lebanon's 1975-90 civil war while the Israeli soldiers ringing the camps stood by.
So much for turning the other cheek. Individual Christians are as capable as Jews and Muslims of acts of terrorism, cruelty, and cowardice in the name of their religion. Of course, the whole terrorist bombing thing started in the 1940s when it was Zionist Jews who started planting bombs to take control of Palestine. According to Scott Perterson of the Christian Science Monitor (in a piece for ABC World News),
One of the precedents in the Middle East was set in British-run Palestine in the late 1930s and early 1940s, when the Zionist terrorist groups Irgun, Stern, and Haganah attacked British and Palestinian targets. The breakthrough came with the spectacular destruction in July 1946—less than two years before Israel was declared a state—of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem. This was the impenetrable fortress, the British military and civilian headquarters, wrapped in steel doors and barbed wire and constantly guarded. When milk churns packed with high explosives in the basement sheared the building in two, the message was sent around the world that a new nation was about to be born. Menachem Begin, who masterminded the King David attack, and later prime minister of Israel, described in his book “The Revolt” the thinking behind such acts of terrorists. “There are times when everything in you cries out: your very self-respect as a human being lies in your resistance to evil,” Mr. Begin wrote. Then, playing on Descartes’ words, he added: “We fight, therefore we are.”
It's awfully easy for
Wow, you *are* ignorant, aren't you ? Jesus said to love your enemies and turn the other cheek. In principle this is true, but let's remember that in practice, in 1982 when Ariel Sharon turned several thousand Palestinian refugees in the Sabra and Shatilla refugee camps in Lebanon over to the Christian Phalangist militia. According to CNN, Christian militiamen started a three-day killing spree in Sabra and Shatila on September 16, 1982, after being let in by Israeli soldiers who sealed off the two camps when they occupied the western sector of the Lebanese capital. It's really simple, and it's not a case of principle. The Bible says love your enemies, the Quran says kill them. So it's not a case of principle - a Christian Militia is a contradition in terms, and is not Christian at all, no matter what it calls itself. Christian Secrets of a happy marriage #27: Never go to bed if you are mad at each other. It's more fun to stay up and fight.
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>>The religion "Islam" and "Christianity" both says to kill people who get in your religion's way ONLY. ONLY FOR RELIGIOUS PURPOSE. Since Israel is a holy land, it is a religious issue. In Islam, it is called Jihad. I don't know what it's called in Christianity. << Nobody knows what it's called in Christianity because it doesn't exist in Christianity. "Love thy neighbor as thy self" and "Thou shalt do no murder", Jesus quoting the 10 Commandments, Matthew 19:17-19. >>The reason why Jews and christians don't kill them selves is because they are either wussies or they don't truly believe that Israel is their's and know that they stole it.<< Life is a gift from God and not to be thrown away. Many early Christians died at the hands of the Romans for their beliefs but not one of them tried to kill or attack the Romans for their persecution. Matthew 26:50-52 50 And Jesus said unto him, Friend, wherefore art thou come? Then came they, and laid hands on Jesus and took him. 51 And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear. 52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. Being faithful to one's religion and abstaining from violence doesn't make one a wuss. Christians have no claim to the land of Israel. Jews, however, were promised a land from God. Now, many times in the Old Testament did the Jews lose this land b/c of their unfaithfulness to God. Maybe so now also. Jason Gerard, Master of Kung Foo
Christians have no claim to the land of Israel. Jews, however, were promised a land from God. Now, many times in the Old Testament did the Jews lose this land b/c of their unfaithfulness to God If one wanted to look at it from purely a religious view, the fact is that the God who made those promises to Israel ( and Jews were only two and a half of the twelve tribes ) intended for Jews to become Christians as of 2,000 years ago. Christian Secrets of a happy marriage #27: Never go to bed if you are mad at each other. It's more fun to stay up and fight.
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Wow, you *are* ignorant, aren't you ? Jesus said to love your enemies and turn the other cheek. In principle this is true, but let's remember that in practice, in 1982 when Ariel Sharon turned several thousand Palestinian refugees in the Sabra and Shatilla refugee camps in Lebanon over to the Christian Phalangist militia. According to CNN, Christian militiamen started a three-day killing spree in Sabra and Shatila on September 16, 1982, after being let in by Israeli soldiers who sealed off the two camps when they occupied the western sector of the Lebanese capital. It's really simple, and it's not a case of principle. The Bible says love your enemies, the Quran says kill them. So it's not a case of principle - a Christian Militia is a contradition in terms, and is not Christian at all, no matter what it calls itself. Christian Secrets of a happy marriage #27: Never go to bed if you are mad at each other. It's more fun to stay up and fight.
Well, of course, there is the little issue of the Crusades and the Inquisition. But I guess Christianity has evolved past that.
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> The causes has long since passed into irrelevance Don't we agree that what was wrong 55 years ago is still wrong today? Here in US (where I live), if my neighbor "occupied" my backyard 100 years ago, the law still guarantees me to get it back even today.
Two wrongs don't make a right. Cowering behind gullible young men sent out to murder innocent, unsuspecting women and children is no way to achieve your goal. If the Arabs cannot stand up and fight the Israelis like men, than you should follow the far more certain path blazed but such men as Ghandhi and King. Peaceful resistance will win the hearts of the world and help you achieve your goals, if your goals are what the PLO claims they are.
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> The causes has long since passed into irrelevance Don't we agree that what was wrong 55 years ago is still wrong today? Here in US (where I live), if my neighbor "occupied" my backyard 100 years ago, the law still guarantees me to get it back even today.
Well, sort of. The point I was making is that in practical terms it matters little about the 'rights' involved, or the 'laws' that have been broken. Whether the white settlers were morally and/or legally wrong to take the continental US from the natives, or to take Hawaii from the natives, makes little difference today. The underlying point is the act has now occurred, is too far gone to be undone, and the only REAL issue how to move forward. To resolve any dispute, the best way forward is to first get both parties to agree on what the ultimate goal is. Once that is decided you then work out how to get there. So decide on the goal, then focus on the way to achieve it. Constantly referring to the past makes progress virtually impossible. To follow your example, you and your neighbor will constantly argue over who was here first, how had the original land title, who took it from who. Then you both arm yourselves and start shooting each other's relatives in order to get the other one to backdown. You aren't going to achieve much except a lessening of birthday present demands from the shrinking pool of relatives. Eventually, after 50 years of this, both of you have now got hundreds of thousands of relatives living with you, who have no where else to go. At that point a resolution that forces either you or your neighbor to totally move out has ceased to be a possible solution. In this sense, it no longer matters whether you or your neighbor started the dispute - simplistic arguments of the 'I was here first' cannot advance the situation much (especially if it is unclear as the truth of that statement). You MUST face the reality that it is too late to undo this - so an ultimate goal of 'I must get my land back totally' is no longer an option. So what then becomes your goal ? That is the only real way forward for The Palestinian/Israeli conflict.
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Well, of course, there is the little issue of the Crusades and the Inquisition. But I guess Christianity has evolved past that.
*sigh* There is also Hitlers Germany and the KKK. All of which are examples of people *calling* themselves Christians and using the banner to promote their own ideas and desires. Christianity was not involved in any of the things you mention, rather politics. Again, the difference is one cannot condone the behaviour of the Crusaders, Hitler, Torquemada or the Grand Wizard of the KKK from the Bible, but our friend with the explosive backpack has the blessing of the Quran. Christian Secrets of a happy marriage #27: Never go to bed if you are mad at each other. It's more fun to stay up and fight.
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I have a question that seem to stump everybody when I ask them. From 1948 to 1967 the West Bank was under Jordanian control and the Gaza strip was under Egyptian control. Why didn't they grant the Palestinians independance? :confused:
To truly understand this question, you must understand the Palestinians. The "Palestinians" are mostly non-Hashemite Jordanians and Non-Saudi Arabs from the Arabian peninsula. The fabricated "history" of the Palestinians is hard to reconcile with true history. Read anything babout the history of the region, even Mark Twain's "The Innocents Abroad", but I am suggesting you read up about the history of the Palestinians (and the region in general) under the Ottoman Turks (pre-1917) and under the British. You'll be surprised that there were no such "Palestinians", and that the national identity is a much more recent thing. That is not to say that they are not a distinct group of people with unique social problems and general issues. But don't make the mistake that the "Palestinians were living there first". What does that mean?
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Wow, you *are* ignorant, aren't you ? Jesus said to love your enemies and turn the other cheek. In principle this is true, but let's remember that in practice, in 1982 when Ariel Sharon turned several thousand Palestinian refugees in the Sabra and Shatilla refugee camps in Lebanon over to the Christian Phalangist militia. According to CNN, Christian militiamen started a three-day killing spree in Sabra and Shatila on September 16, 1982, after being let in by Israeli soldiers who sealed off the two camps when they occupied the western sector of the Lebanese capital. It's really simple, and it's not a case of principle. The Bible says love your enemies, the Quran says kill them. So it's not a case of principle - a Christian Militia is a contradition in terms, and is not Christian at all, no matter what it calls itself. Christian Secrets of a happy marriage #27: Never go to bed if you are mad at each other. It's more fun to stay up and fight.
HEEEEEY. Be polite and wise you STUPID!!!! I am a Muslim and have not seen anything in Quran that tells to kill the enemies. Hey Chris, stop these idiots to post messages that contains insults to the religions!!! Mustafa Demirhan
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BTW, i am not Palestinian, but i support them. They kill them selves so they can kill the people who have invaded their country. They are killing innocent people because they have to or else there is no way the Israelis will leave the country or give it back to the people it belongs to. The religion "Islam" and "Christianity" both says to kill people who get in your religion's way ONLY. ONLY FOR RELIGIOUS PURPOSE. Since Israel is a holy land, it is a religious issue. In Islam, it is called Jihad. I don't know what it's called in Christianity. The Palestinan blow them selves up because they truly belive that this isn't their fault. The reason why Jewish and christians don't kill them selves is because they are either wussies or they don't truly believe that Israel is their's and know that they stole it. Sarah
No, There is no such thing in Christianity. There used to be, but not anymore. (2b || !2b)
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HEEEEEY. Be polite and wise you STUPID!!!! I am a Muslim and have not seen anything in Quran that tells to kill the enemies. Hey Chris, stop these idiots to post messages that contains insults to the religions!!! Mustafa Demirhan
This quote came up in google, but the page is gone. And kill the infidels wherever you find and turn them out from the place where from they turned you out; and their mischief is more grievous than killing How about this ? Allah's apostle was asked, "What is the best deed?" He replied, "To believe in Allah and his Apostle." The questioner then asked, "What is the next?" He replied, "To participate in Jihad in Allah's cause." (Hadith vol. 1, no. 25). Or this ? Sura 9:5 says, Fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every strategem of war. Sura 5:33 records what is done to infidels who resist Islam: Their punishment is...execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from the opposite sides, or exile from the land. Christian Secrets of a happy marriage #27: Never go to bed if you are mad at each other. It's more fun to stay up and fight.
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This quote came up in google, but the page is gone. And kill the infidels wherever you find and turn them out from the place where from they turned you out; and their mischief is more grievous than killing How about this ? Allah's apostle was asked, "What is the best deed?" He replied, "To believe in Allah and his Apostle." The questioner then asked, "What is the next?" He replied, "To participate in Jihad in Allah's cause." (Hadith vol. 1, no. 25). Or this ? Sura 9:5 says, Fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every strategem of war. Sura 5:33 records what is done to infidels who resist Islam: Their punishment is...execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from the opposite sides, or exile from the land. Christian Secrets of a happy marriage #27: Never go to bed if you are mad at each other. It's more fun to stay up and fight.
go and read this page: http://www.whyislam.org/faqs/q18.htm And always be RESPECTFUL to the others' ideas. I can easily show you many very absurd things in Bible but this is not my business. Also be sure that, you cannot find anything illogical or unreasonable thing in Qur’an. 1. Verse from Surah Taubah -------------------------- The following verse from Surah Taubah is very often quoted by critics of Islam, to show that Islam promotes violence, bloodshed and brutality: "Kill the mushriqeen (pagans, kafirs) where ever you find them." [Al-Qur’an 9:5] 2. Context of verse is during battlefield ----------------------------------------- Critics of Islam actually quote this verse out of context. In order to understand the context, we need to read from verse 1 of this surah. It says that there was a peace treaty between the Muslims and the Mushriqs (pagans) of Makkah. This treaty was violated by the Mushriqs of Makkah. A period of four months was given to the Mushriqs of Makkah to make amends. Otherwise war would be declared against them. Verse 5 of Surah Taubah says: "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is oft-forgiving, Most merciful." [Al-Qur’an 9:5] This verse is quoted during a battle. 3. Example of war between America and Vietnam --------------------------------------------- We know that America was once at war with Vietnam. Suppose the President of America or the General of the American Army told the American soldiers during the war: "Wherever you find the Vietnamese, kill them". Today if I say that the American President said, "Wherever you find Vietnamese, kill them" without giving the context, I will make him sound like a butcher. But if I quote him in context, that he said it during a war, it will sound very logical, as he was trying to boost the morale of the American soldiers during the war. 4. Verse 9:5 quoted to boost morale of Muslims during battle ------------------------------------------------------------ Similarly in Surah Taubah chapter 9 verse 5 the Qur’an says, "Kill the Mushriqs where ever you find them", during a battle to boost the morale of the Muslim soldiers. What the Qur’an is telling Muslim soldiers is, don’t be afraid during battle; wherever you find the
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go and read this page: http://www.whyislam.org/faqs/q18.htm And always be RESPECTFUL to the others' ideas. I can easily show you many very absurd things in Bible but this is not my business. Also be sure that, you cannot find anything illogical or unreasonable thing in Qur’an. 1. Verse from Surah Taubah -------------------------- The following verse from Surah Taubah is very often quoted by critics of Islam, to show that Islam promotes violence, bloodshed and brutality: "Kill the mushriqeen (pagans, kafirs) where ever you find them." [Al-Qur’an 9:5] 2. Context of verse is during battlefield ----------------------------------------- Critics of Islam actually quote this verse out of context. In order to understand the context, we need to read from verse 1 of this surah. It says that there was a peace treaty between the Muslims and the Mushriqs (pagans) of Makkah. This treaty was violated by the Mushriqs of Makkah. A period of four months was given to the Mushriqs of Makkah to make amends. Otherwise war would be declared against them. Verse 5 of Surah Taubah says: "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is oft-forgiving, Most merciful." [Al-Qur’an 9:5] This verse is quoted during a battle. 3. Example of war between America and Vietnam --------------------------------------------- We know that America was once at war with Vietnam. Suppose the President of America or the General of the American Army told the American soldiers during the war: "Wherever you find the Vietnamese, kill them". Today if I say that the American President said, "Wherever you find Vietnamese, kill them" without giving the context, I will make him sound like a butcher. But if I quote him in context, that he said it during a war, it will sound very logical, as he was trying to boost the morale of the American soldiers during the war. 4. Verse 9:5 quoted to boost morale of Muslims during battle ------------------------------------------------------------ Similarly in Surah Taubah chapter 9 verse 5 the Qur’an says, "Kill the Mushriqs where ever you find them", during a battle to boost the morale of the Muslim soldiers. What the Qur’an is telling Muslim soldiers is, don’t be afraid during battle; wherever you find the
I can easily show you many very absurd things in Bible but this is not my business. Also be sure that, you cannot find anything illogical or unreasonable thing in Qur’an. You're wrong. Bring it on, if you want to discuss it. "If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum,grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah; and then escort him to where he can be secure that is because they are men without knowledge." Apart from the fact that this paragraph deals with only one of the quotes I found regarding the Quran encouraging the death of infidels, verse 6 seems to indicate I get to live *if* I am willing to convert to Islam. If Allah and his 'glorious Quran' were written to promote peace, why is it used so extensively by it's leaders and followers to promote war ? Could you provide a definition of Jihad ? I'm happy to consider that Hollywood has got it wrong. Does it mean distribution of the Quran and providing cups of tea and a biscuit while discussing the merits of Islam ? Christian Secrets of a happy marriage #27: Never go to bed if you are mad at each other. It's more fun to stay up and fight.
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I can easily show you many very absurd things in Bible but this is not my business. Also be sure that, you cannot find anything illogical or unreasonable thing in Qur’an. You're wrong. Bring it on, if you want to discuss it. "If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum,grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah; and then escort him to where he can be secure that is because they are men without knowledge." Apart from the fact that this paragraph deals with only one of the quotes I found regarding the Quran encouraging the death of infidels, verse 6 seems to indicate I get to live *if* I am willing to convert to Islam. If Allah and his 'glorious Quran' were written to promote peace, why is it used so extensively by it's leaders and followers to promote war ? Could you provide a definition of Jihad ? I'm happy to consider that Hollywood has got it wrong. Does it mean distribution of the Quran and providing cups of tea and a biscuit while discussing the merits of Islam ? Christian Secrets of a happy marriage #27: Never go to bed if you are mad at each other. It's more fun to stay up and fight.
As I said, it is not my job.... All I want to say is just be RESPECTFUL!!! :rose: I can provide you more than 10,000 pages of explanations about this issue. But it would be hard for me to translate them to English... Mustafa Demirhan
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As I said, it is not my job.... All I want to say is just be RESPECTFUL!!! :rose: I can provide you more than 10,000 pages of explanations about this issue. But it would be hard for me to translate them to English... Mustafa Demirhan
Well, in that case you shouldn't make throwaway lines you don't want to back up. I'm happy to respect your right to hold to a particular view, although I think it's wrong. :rose: Christian Secrets of a happy marriage #27: Never go to bed if you are mad at each other. It's more fun to stay up and fight.
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I'm a little concerned about the Palestinian/Israeli conflict. It seems to be headed downhill in a bad way. I'm afraid that it could lead to a major war in the region, perhaps of nuclear proportions. I'm not really informed on the issues surrounding the conflict. A European friend of mine claims that it's all the Israelis' fault for forcing the Palestinians out of land which had been theirs for hundreds of years. He actually justifies their violent behavior by saying that they've been driven to it by the way they've been shoved out of their own land, just to make room for new housing for immigrant Jews. What do you think? Who's really at fault, and how should it be resolved? Regards, Alvaro
Well, I usually don't like to participate in political debates but I have to say couple of words. First of all I'm living in Israel so I'm pretty diverts. I don't think that the blame is on Israel or on Palestinians. I do think that as every crisis the blame can be split equally between the two parties. I also thing that most of the palatinates and Israeli people just want to live their life peacefully, but there are small groups of extremes that knows how to keep the fire up. Any way I think that no one that lives here (Israel) can really understand what goes here. You can't understand such a conflict from 50,000 feet view. It's like Don Box that from 50,000 view throughout that COM is great solution but down from the ground it looks completely different.... :-)