Seriously?
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I totally get it. I loved programming and went to college thinking it would teach me how to do it (they have "programming" classes). I found that every programming class in college assumed you had never done it before, so they all started over and never went in depth. I still dabbled on my own after college, but I didn't really start learning till I got my first full time gig programming (5 months after graduation). That first year of work was life changing. I was lucky to have a patient mentor as I learned the ropes. Still doing it 16 years later.
Hogan
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Quote from QA:
I have graduated from college with a bachelor’s degree in computer science, however I feel like I don’t have the required skills or knowledge to say that I’m in a intermediate level of java. ... My main programming language is Java, Here is an example of what im kind of trying to find out: -knowledge on how to make variables -understands OOP -knows how to make different loops
:wtf:
You can lead a programmer through source code, but you can't make them think! I have seen this time and again. University Seniors who I failed, explaining to me that they ACED their C++ class last semester, how can they fail Java. So, I asked them some C++ related questions, they could NOT ANSWER one of them. I explained that he ACED a water downed C class, that used a C++ compiler! And if I taught that class, he would have had a chance in my class! When I was graduating from Michigan State, I saw one of the worst programmers so proud to get his degree with a 2.0 GPA (boosted by non computer and non engineering classes). I felt like giving my degree back! What value does it have, if you can just "grind" through it without understanding? ON the UP SIDE. I encourage his openness as to where he really is. Be wrong out loud. You learn faster. But also. Pick up a book, and READ IT. Find source code, and read it. Get it to compile, and break it. And fix it, and break it. Until you have a clue! Or go into Support :-)
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Did he get his degree from a Christmas Cracker? :wtf: It's depressing how many people - at least in QA - appear to be trying to get degrees and hold down jobs afterwards without even trying to learn anything. :sigh:
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
I used to get mad at people who had right to be in the position they were in. But at a company I was at recently, I realized that it wasn't that individual's fault. It was that individual's manager or team who hired them. I guess some colleges are better than others.
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I used to get mad at people who had right to be in the position they were in. But at a company I was at recently, I realized that it wasn't that individual's fault. It was that individual's manager or team who hired them. I guess some colleges are better than others.
I don't think it's just colleges - I think it's about attitudes. When I started in this business, coders wanted to code, and they would do that with or without a formal education. Now...everyone has an iPhone (or Android), everyone has access to Google, they see the dollar signs on the job description and assume it's easy-peasy. And provided you just google everything it is. Until you actually have to do your own unique work and then it all turns to sh*t becaue they don't have a damn clue how to do anything. There are several QA questioners who appear to be using QA as a way to keep a job... :sigh:
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
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Okay, but surely starting from scratch meant teaching you how to create variables and perform loops. Otherwise, what the elephant did they teach?
If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP.
Sure, they taught these things in college. But there is a big difference between doing this for a handfull of homework assignments and performing this every day in your job. College doesn't teach a person to code, it teaches them concepts about how to code.
Hogan
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I don't think it's just colleges - I think it's about attitudes. When I started in this business, coders wanted to code, and they would do that with or without a formal education. Now...everyone has an iPhone (or Android), everyone has access to Google, they see the dollar signs on the job description and assume it's easy-peasy. And provided you just google everything it is. Until you actually have to do your own unique work and then it all turns to sh*t becaue they don't have a damn clue how to do anything. There are several QA questioners who appear to be using QA as a way to keep a job... :sigh:
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
I don't disagree with anything you say, but ,y point is that I don't know how these guys are getting diplomas, and I don't know why managers are hiring them except that some idiot manager hired those managers as well. Hell, I don't know how most people got their drivers license either!
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I don't disagree with anything you say, but ,y point is that I don't know how these guys are getting diplomas, and I don't know why managers are hiring them except that some idiot manager hired those managers as well. Hell, I don't know how most people got their drivers license either!
Daniel R. Przybylski wrote:
Hell, I don't know how most people got their drivers license either!
Ah, that one is definitely a Christmas Cracker! :laugh: And ex girfriend's mum passed her test on the third try: First test she reversed into a bus. A bright red double decker. Second test the examiner told her to turn right, she turned left and got lost in a one-way system. He had to turn it into a lesson to get back to the test center and was an hour late for his next appointment. The third test we suspect involved colourful-paper-tubes-that-go-bang-when-you-pull-them.
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
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Quote from QA:
I have graduated from college with a bachelor’s degree in computer science, however I feel like I don’t have the required skills or knowledge to say that I’m in a intermediate level of java. ... My main programming language is Java, Here is an example of what im kind of trying to find out: -knowledge on how to make variables -understands OOP -knows how to make different loops
:wtf:
Don't laugh. Sometime back I was told that having a DEGREE in I.T. meant that you could build a spreadsheet or know how to populate a database (Access, etc.) :omg:
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I totally get it. I loved programming and went to college thinking it would teach me how to do it (they have "programming" classes). I found that every programming class in college assumed you had never done it before, so they all started over and never went in depth. I still dabbled on my own after college, but I didn't really start learning till I got my first full time gig programming (5 months after graduation). That first year of work was life changing. I was lucky to have a patient mentor as I learned the ropes. Still doing it 16 years later.
Hogan
snorkie wrote:
I still dabbled on my own after college, but I didn't really start learning till I got my first full time gig programming (5 months after graduation). That first year of work was life changing. I was lucky to have a patient mentor as I learned the ropes. Still doing it 16 years later.
You can't do any good as a programmer if you just have a mild interest in it. I fell in love with it when I took my first FORTRAN course back in 1976 (40 years ago) and that's still what I do for a living. :-)
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Quote from QA:
I have graduated from college with a bachelor’s degree in computer science, however I feel like I don’t have the required skills or knowledge to say that I’m in a intermediate level of java. ... My main programming language is Java, Here is an example of what im kind of trying to find out: -knowledge on how to make variables -understands OOP -knows how to make different loops
:wtf:
I think the first question that needs to be asked is "What is the purpose of the Computer Science Department?" Is it to turn out coders? Is it to turn out Software Engineers? It is typically part of the Science faculty, just like the Chemistry Department and the Physics Department. What does the Chemistry Department do? Does it turn out people who can mix chemicals? Does it turn out people who can design chemical plants? And what does the Physics Department do? Does it turn out people who can do physics experiments? Does it turn out people who can design elevators and jetliners? The Science Faculty is supposed to teach people how to think and to use the scientific method to explore the world/universe around us. They are not responsible or equipped to turn out Engineers, be it Mechanical, Electrical, Civil, Chemical or Software Engineers. Case in point. An Engineering Professor was teaching a Software Engineering Course and was hauled before the university disciplinary committee for teaching research material to undergrads. The evidence of his crime was a state transition diagram. The typical Science Faculty is not equipped to turn out Software Engineers any more than it is equipped to turn out Engineers to build nuclear reactors. This situation has been slowly changing but obviously not fast enough. In my 25 years in the software business, I have only found 2 software developers who knew the engineering definition of the word "Design". Roughly half of all people employed as software developers have any formal training in Software Development (and I am including a Computer Science Degree). 90 percent of all software developers (and their management) have no idea what configuration management is or what its purpose is. Most think that a developer managed tool is CM. Most developers (and their management) believe that inspections are less efficient than testing at finding defects. Most software development organizations use a development process that includes frequent merges (well it works so well when developing jet planes and skyscrapers). Something has to change and it needs to change soon. We see evidence every day that our most secure software systems have more holes than a Swiss Cheese. The vast majority of software development organizations do not use metrics, even if they collect them. Even brick layers are more sophisticated that software development shops when it come to metrics.
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:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: ..but seriously, that's sad. :sigh:
No it's common occurence.
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I think the first question that needs to be asked is "What is the purpose of the Computer Science Department?" Is it to turn out coders? Is it to turn out Software Engineers? It is typically part of the Science faculty, just like the Chemistry Department and the Physics Department. What does the Chemistry Department do? Does it turn out people who can mix chemicals? Does it turn out people who can design chemical plants? And what does the Physics Department do? Does it turn out people who can do physics experiments? Does it turn out people who can design elevators and jetliners? The Science Faculty is supposed to teach people how to think and to use the scientific method to explore the world/universe around us. They are not responsible or equipped to turn out Engineers, be it Mechanical, Electrical, Civil, Chemical or Software Engineers. Case in point. An Engineering Professor was teaching a Software Engineering Course and was hauled before the university disciplinary committee for teaching research material to undergrads. The evidence of his crime was a state transition diagram. The typical Science Faculty is not equipped to turn out Software Engineers any more than it is equipped to turn out Engineers to build nuclear reactors. This situation has been slowly changing but obviously not fast enough. In my 25 years in the software business, I have only found 2 software developers who knew the engineering definition of the word "Design". Roughly half of all people employed as software developers have any formal training in Software Development (and I am including a Computer Science Degree). 90 percent of all software developers (and their management) have no idea what configuration management is or what its purpose is. Most think that a developer managed tool is CM. Most developers (and their management) believe that inspections are less efficient than testing at finding defects. Most software development organizations use a development process that includes frequent merges (well it works so well when developing jet planes and skyscrapers). Something has to change and it needs to change soon. We see evidence every day that our most secure software systems have more holes than a Swiss Cheese. The vast majority of software development organizations do not use metrics, even if they collect them. Even brick layers are more sophisticated that software development shops when it come to metrics.
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It shouldn't even need to be covered. If someone who applies for such a course doesn't already know that much, they should transfer to home ec.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
I had practically zero programming experience when I got to college as a Computer Science major. It was pretty much all brand new to me.
The United States invariably does the right thing, after having exhausted every other alternative. -Winston Churchill America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between. -Oscar Wilde Wow, even the French showed a little more spine than that before they got their sh*t pushed in.[^] -Colin Mullikin
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Quote from QA:
I have graduated from college with a bachelor’s degree in computer science, however I feel like I don’t have the required skills or knowledge to say that I’m in a intermediate level of java. ... My main programming language is Java, Here is an example of what im kind of trying to find out: -knowledge on how to make variables -understands OOP -knows how to make different loops
:wtf:
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Quote from QA:
I have graduated from college with a bachelor’s degree in computer science, however I feel like I don’t have the required skills or knowledge to say that I’m in a intermediate level of java. ... My main programming language is Java, Here is an example of what im kind of trying to find out: -knowledge on how to make variables -understands OOP -knows how to make different loops
:wtf:
Maybe you know more than you give yourself credit for. Read about the Dunning Kruger effect and you might feel a little better about your skills. (Search on google). Simply put - the Dunning Kruger effect posits that "the more you know, the more you know what you don't know." This results in people who know little overestimating their ability, and conversely, people with more experience having a more realistic view of their skills. :-)
