Seriously?
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Quote from QA:
I have graduated from college with a bachelor’s degree in computer science, however I feel like I don’t have the required skills or knowledge to say that I’m in a intermediate level of java. ... My main programming language is Java, Here is an example of what im kind of trying to find out: -knowledge on how to make variables -understands OOP -knows how to make different loops
:wtf:
To the original post... I'm so sorry to hear your dilemma, I've never gone to college or even taken a course on programming other than the SAMS "Learn Java in 21 days" book. I can highly recommend this book, from that base starting point I've gone on to learn C#, SQL, VB, js and many other tools. Learning to program is basically learning to think logically, nothing more. Language and syntax are tools, but they do you no good unless you can break down a problem into logical steps. Once you know the steps you can find the syntax. I will also say understand why you want to write programs, in my case my hobby is art and graphics (3D), but I wanted to do things that the applications available couldn't do, or wouldn't let me do. So I started writing my own programs, when I was finally able to do the things I wanted... I was hooked! My career took a completely different path, I became a machinist, then tool maker, got into CAD, then 3D CAD, started designing machines and processes, then became a manufacturing engineer. Along the way, as I needed to solve problems or analyze data, and the available tools (software) wouldn't do what I needed, guess what.... I made my own. I give you all of this because "why program" is a bigger question than how. Find a problem to solve, then figure it out. "Figure it out" is a matter of patience and tenacity more than knowledge or skill. Start small and simple then expand on that a little at a time. I'll be happy to help explain variables, OOP, and loops, and anything else you may need if you decide you really want to learn programming, but you first have to answer the question of "Why program" for yourself.
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programify wrote:
My top tip is to focus on what the candidates hobbies are. If they don't include 'programming', 'running my own website', 'learning about coding', etc. then they can't be too serious about progamming for a living.
My hobbies are my car, my dogs, sitting on the couch doing nothing, and sometimes writing a little code at home. Yeah, I have a web page but it only serves static pages and the most impressive thing on it is the rolling patriotic quote that changes every time you somehow refresh the page. It's been three years since I made any substantive change to it.
programify wrote:
If you want a well paid job in programming, be prepared to have no social life for many years.
Been there, done that, and after 35 years of writing code, I'm no longer interested in 20 hour work days. I put in 8 hours and get my work done. If it's a true emergency, I'll stay as long as necessary after my official quitting time. But that doesn't happen very often. Oh yeah, I'm at the point where I've forgotten more programming stuff than a lot of people know. I learn what I need to, but I'm of the belief that the old ways are generally the best ways.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013What he said :thumbsup: (Literally) I'll be damned if I sell my soul for any type of job. Having a love for something and *sustaining* that love for it should never be mutually exclusive options in life.
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Quote from QA:
I have graduated from college with a bachelor’s degree in computer science, however I feel like I don’t have the required skills or knowledge to say that I’m in a intermediate level of java. ... My main programming language is Java, Here is an example of what im kind of trying to find out: -knowledge on how to make variables -understands OOP -knows how to make different loops
:wtf:
Wow… 6 months ago I couldn't even spell engineer now I are one.
New version: WinHeist Version 2.2.2 Beta
I told my psychiatrist that I was hearing voices in my head. He said you don't have a psychiatrist! -
What made me laugh is that a bunch of guys at a company I used to work at had to take a Java course/exam. Some of them were C programmers, and some of them Java programmers. With no exception at all, the C guys scored A Lot higher than the Java guys.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
That is because Object references in Java work exactly like C pointers. They just removed the address-of(&) and dereference(*) operator from Java so you can't see the addresses. Java always passes by copy/value even for object "pointers", so you often have copies of copies of copies of "pointers" all referring to the same object/memory allocation. Alas, Java has no const to protect the data on the end of the pointers. Java "final" with an Object declaration is only const to the pointer, not the data. This type of thinking is like breathing to a moderately proficient C programmer.
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Wow… 6 months ago I couldn't even spell engineer now I are one.
New version: WinHeist Version 2.2.2 Beta
I told my psychiatrist that I was hearing voices in my head. He said you don't have a psychiatrist! -
:laugh: I sit corrected.
New version: WinHeist Version 2.2.2 Beta
I told my psychiatrist that I was hearing voices in my head. He said you don't have a psychiatrist! -
Quote from QA:
-knowledge on how to make variables -knows how to make different loops
Pretty sure we covered this in the first couple weeks of first semester... What did this guy do for the other 3.9 years of his degree program...? :wtf:
The United States invariably does the right thing, after having exhausted every other alternative. -Winston Churchill America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between. -Oscar Wilde Wow, even the French showed a little more spine than that before they got their sh*t pushed in.[^] -Colin Mullikin
He went to uni and doesn't know this? Yikes!!! My kids learned this for their O levels.
We're philosophical about power outages here. A.C. come, A.C. go.
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I totally get it. I loved programming and went to college thinking it would teach me how to do it (they have "programming" classes). I found that every programming class in college assumed you had never done it before, so they all started over and never went in depth. I still dabbled on my own after college, but I didn't really start learning till I got my first full time gig programming (5 months after graduation). That first year of work was life changing. I was lucky to have a patient mentor as I learned the ropes. Still doing it 16 years later.
Hogan
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Quote from QA:
I have graduated from college with a bachelor’s degree in computer science, however I feel like I don’t have the required skills or knowledge to say that I’m in a intermediate level of java. ... My main programming language is Java, Here is an example of what im kind of trying to find out: -knowledge on how to make variables -understands OOP -knows how to make different loops
:wtf:
You can lead a programmer through source code, but you can't make them think! I have seen this time and again. University Seniors who I failed, explaining to me that they ACED their C++ class last semester, how can they fail Java. So, I asked them some C++ related questions, they could NOT ANSWER one of them. I explained that he ACED a water downed C class, that used a C++ compiler! And if I taught that class, he would have had a chance in my class! When I was graduating from Michigan State, I saw one of the worst programmers so proud to get his degree with a 2.0 GPA (boosted by non computer and non engineering classes). I felt like giving my degree back! What value does it have, if you can just "grind" through it without understanding? ON the UP SIDE. I encourage his openness as to where he really is. Be wrong out loud. You learn faster. But also. Pick up a book, and READ IT. Find source code, and read it. Get it to compile, and break it. And fix it, and break it. Until you have a clue! Or go into Support :-)
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Did he get his degree from a Christmas Cracker? :wtf: It's depressing how many people - at least in QA - appear to be trying to get degrees and hold down jobs afterwards without even trying to learn anything. :sigh:
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
I used to get mad at people who had right to be in the position they were in. But at a company I was at recently, I realized that it wasn't that individual's fault. It was that individual's manager or team who hired them. I guess some colleges are better than others.
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I used to get mad at people who had right to be in the position they were in. But at a company I was at recently, I realized that it wasn't that individual's fault. It was that individual's manager or team who hired them. I guess some colleges are better than others.
I don't think it's just colleges - I think it's about attitudes. When I started in this business, coders wanted to code, and they would do that with or without a formal education. Now...everyone has an iPhone (or Android), everyone has access to Google, they see the dollar signs on the job description and assume it's easy-peasy. And provided you just google everything it is. Until you actually have to do your own unique work and then it all turns to sh*t becaue they don't have a damn clue how to do anything. There are several QA questioners who appear to be using QA as a way to keep a job... :sigh:
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
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Okay, but surely starting from scratch meant teaching you how to create variables and perform loops. Otherwise, what the elephant did they teach?
If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP.
Sure, they taught these things in college. But there is a big difference between doing this for a handfull of homework assignments and performing this every day in your job. College doesn't teach a person to code, it teaches them concepts about how to code.
Hogan
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I don't think it's just colleges - I think it's about attitudes. When I started in this business, coders wanted to code, and they would do that with or without a formal education. Now...everyone has an iPhone (or Android), everyone has access to Google, they see the dollar signs on the job description and assume it's easy-peasy. And provided you just google everything it is. Until you actually have to do your own unique work and then it all turns to sh*t becaue they don't have a damn clue how to do anything. There are several QA questioners who appear to be using QA as a way to keep a job... :sigh:
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
I don't disagree with anything you say, but ,y point is that I don't know how these guys are getting diplomas, and I don't know why managers are hiring them except that some idiot manager hired those managers as well. Hell, I don't know how most people got their drivers license either!
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I don't disagree with anything you say, but ,y point is that I don't know how these guys are getting diplomas, and I don't know why managers are hiring them except that some idiot manager hired those managers as well. Hell, I don't know how most people got their drivers license either!
Daniel R. Przybylski wrote:
Hell, I don't know how most people got their drivers license either!
Ah, that one is definitely a Christmas Cracker! :laugh: And ex girfriend's mum passed her test on the third try: First test she reversed into a bus. A bright red double decker. Second test the examiner told her to turn right, she turned left and got lost in a one-way system. He had to turn it into a lesson to get back to the test center and was an hour late for his next appointment. The third test we suspect involved colourful-paper-tubes-that-go-bang-when-you-pull-them.
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
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Quote from QA:
I have graduated from college with a bachelor’s degree in computer science, however I feel like I don’t have the required skills or knowledge to say that I’m in a intermediate level of java. ... My main programming language is Java, Here is an example of what im kind of trying to find out: -knowledge on how to make variables -understands OOP -knows how to make different loops
:wtf:
Don't laugh. Sometime back I was told that having a DEGREE in I.T. meant that you could build a spreadsheet or know how to populate a database (Access, etc.) :omg:
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I totally get it. I loved programming and went to college thinking it would teach me how to do it (they have "programming" classes). I found that every programming class in college assumed you had never done it before, so they all started over and never went in depth. I still dabbled on my own after college, but I didn't really start learning till I got my first full time gig programming (5 months after graduation). That first year of work was life changing. I was lucky to have a patient mentor as I learned the ropes. Still doing it 16 years later.
Hogan
snorkie wrote:
I still dabbled on my own after college, but I didn't really start learning till I got my first full time gig programming (5 months after graduation). That first year of work was life changing. I was lucky to have a patient mentor as I learned the ropes. Still doing it 16 years later.
You can't do any good as a programmer if you just have a mild interest in it. I fell in love with it when I took my first FORTRAN course back in 1976 (40 years ago) and that's still what I do for a living. :-)
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Quote from QA:
I have graduated from college with a bachelor’s degree in computer science, however I feel like I don’t have the required skills or knowledge to say that I’m in a intermediate level of java. ... My main programming language is Java, Here is an example of what im kind of trying to find out: -knowledge on how to make variables -understands OOP -knows how to make different loops
:wtf:
I think the first question that needs to be asked is "What is the purpose of the Computer Science Department?" Is it to turn out coders? Is it to turn out Software Engineers? It is typically part of the Science faculty, just like the Chemistry Department and the Physics Department. What does the Chemistry Department do? Does it turn out people who can mix chemicals? Does it turn out people who can design chemical plants? And what does the Physics Department do? Does it turn out people who can do physics experiments? Does it turn out people who can design elevators and jetliners? The Science Faculty is supposed to teach people how to think and to use the scientific method to explore the world/universe around us. They are not responsible or equipped to turn out Engineers, be it Mechanical, Electrical, Civil, Chemical or Software Engineers. Case in point. An Engineering Professor was teaching a Software Engineering Course and was hauled before the university disciplinary committee for teaching research material to undergrads. The evidence of his crime was a state transition diagram. The typical Science Faculty is not equipped to turn out Software Engineers any more than it is equipped to turn out Engineers to build nuclear reactors. This situation has been slowly changing but obviously not fast enough. In my 25 years in the software business, I have only found 2 software developers who knew the engineering definition of the word "Design". Roughly half of all people employed as software developers have any formal training in Software Development (and I am including a Computer Science Degree). 90 percent of all software developers (and their management) have no idea what configuration management is or what its purpose is. Most think that a developer managed tool is CM. Most developers (and their management) believe that inspections are less efficient than testing at finding defects. Most software development organizations use a development process that includes frequent merges (well it works so well when developing jet planes and skyscrapers). Something has to change and it needs to change soon. We see evidence every day that our most secure software systems have more holes than a Swiss Cheese. The vast majority of software development organizations do not use metrics, even if they collect them. Even brick layers are more sophisticated that software development shops when it come to metrics.
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:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: ..but seriously, that's sad. :sigh:
No it's common occurence.
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I think the first question that needs to be asked is "What is the purpose of the Computer Science Department?" Is it to turn out coders? Is it to turn out Software Engineers? It is typically part of the Science faculty, just like the Chemistry Department and the Physics Department. What does the Chemistry Department do? Does it turn out people who can mix chemicals? Does it turn out people who can design chemical plants? And what does the Physics Department do? Does it turn out people who can do physics experiments? Does it turn out people who can design elevators and jetliners? The Science Faculty is supposed to teach people how to think and to use the scientific method to explore the world/universe around us. They are not responsible or equipped to turn out Engineers, be it Mechanical, Electrical, Civil, Chemical or Software Engineers. Case in point. An Engineering Professor was teaching a Software Engineering Course and was hauled before the university disciplinary committee for teaching research material to undergrads. The evidence of his crime was a state transition diagram. The typical Science Faculty is not equipped to turn out Software Engineers any more than it is equipped to turn out Engineers to build nuclear reactors. This situation has been slowly changing but obviously not fast enough. In my 25 years in the software business, I have only found 2 software developers who knew the engineering definition of the word "Design". Roughly half of all people employed as software developers have any formal training in Software Development (and I am including a Computer Science Degree). 90 percent of all software developers (and their management) have no idea what configuration management is or what its purpose is. Most think that a developer managed tool is CM. Most developers (and their management) believe that inspections are less efficient than testing at finding defects. Most software development organizations use a development process that includes frequent merges (well it works so well when developing jet planes and skyscrapers). Something has to change and it needs to change soon. We see evidence every day that our most secure software systems have more holes than a Swiss Cheese. The vast majority of software development organizations do not use metrics, even if they collect them. Even brick layers are more sophisticated that software development shops when it come to metrics.
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It shouldn't even need to be covered. If someone who applies for such a course doesn't already know that much, they should transfer to home ec.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
I had practically zero programming experience when I got to college as a Computer Science major. It was pretty much all brand new to me.
The United States invariably does the right thing, after having exhausted every other alternative. -Winston Churchill America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between. -Oscar Wilde Wow, even the French showed a little more spine than that before they got their sh*t pushed in.[^] -Colin Mullikin
