I can't see all the problems with upgrades
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Richard MacCutchan wrote:
The reality is that Windows 10 is quite stable
I haven't found that. It hides the some of the application crashes (particularly explorer.exe -- check your logs) better, by putting up screenshots of what was on the screen when it crashed, but the number of "unplanned" reboots is ridiculously high for a modern OS (i.e. often more than once a week). And that's not counting the "I'm updating! Screw you!" reboots. Granted, I only have it on a tablet, but that's what it's designed for ("MOBILE FIRST!") No way would I risk "upgrading" any of my actual computers to it -- even the w8 lappie.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
No, none, not happened. Sorry, but my experience is that Windows 10 is very stable, and does not make arbitrary decisions to reboot while I am in the middle of doing something important*. My version obviously has a major flaw compared to nearly everyone else in this thread; and that is still a very small percentage of Windows 10 users worldwide. *Not that much of what I do could really be described as important anyway.
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No, none, not happened. Sorry, but my experience is that Windows 10 is very stable, and does not make arbitrary decisions to reboot while I am in the middle of doing something important*. My version obviously has a major flaw compared to nearly everyone else in this thread; and that is still a very small percentage of Windows 10 users worldwide. *Not that much of what I do could really be described as important anyway.
Richard MacCutchan wrote:
my experience is that Windows 10 is very stable, and does not make arbitrary decisions to reboot while I am in the middle of doing something important
It hasn't done it while I've had it in my hand, but I've many times picked it up after 10 mins to half an hour to find that nothing is running because it's clean booted. I haven't spent any time investigating why, because it's not a "vital" piece of kit -- but I won't risk the same experience on kit that is vital.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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Your points are about entirely subjective things. I resisted Windows 8 because of the start menu and dropping Aero. Then I started using it just before 8.1 was released. To my surprise, I liked the start screen and didn't miss Aero. To the point where I found going back to Windows 7 annoying. I still do. Horror of horrors I've even adjusted to using the ribbon and have even found that on some apps, like Windows Explorer, it's a genuine improvement.
Are you suggesting subjective opinions don't count? In my view, whilst W10 gives good performance on (my) old hardware, its UI is horribly unintuitive - for just one example, how do you feel about scroll bars that disappear after a few seconds? Weeks before the launch in 2015, I left comments on the Insider Feedback 'thingy' expressing my amazement that MS had so little time left to fix some of the more egregious features - and they are still with us over a year later.
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den2k88 wrote:
Reviews, experience from my peers, system requirements, complains, look&feel.
That's what I've heard too. Most folks, especially the anti-Windows folks tell the same story. I know there are imperfections and I haven't upgraded to Win 10 yet because of it, or because of what I've heard from others. I'm just too busy to do the update. :rolleyes: Today, I'm about to update it to Win 10 because I need to test out the docker support for .net core. So fingers cross. :-D
I upgraded to Win 10 and have never had a problem with it. Maybe because I don't play any games - only use it for development and browsing. Sure it needs a bit of tweaking to make it behave but with Classic Shell installed because I don't like tiles basically all the rest is exactly the same under the hood, apart from very minor differences, to XP. My laptop is Win 10 now and also my tablet so I guess I have embraced Windows 10!
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Richard MacCutchan wrote:
The reality is that Windows 10 is quite stable
I haven't found that. It hides the some of the application crashes (particularly explorer.exe -- check your logs) better, by putting up screenshots of what was on the screen when it crashed, but the number of "unplanned" reboots is ridiculously high for a modern OS (i.e. often more than once a week). And that's not counting the "I'm updating! Screw you!" reboots. Granted, I only have it on a tablet, but that's what it's designed for ("MOBILE FIRST!") No way would I risk "upgrading" any of my actual computers to it -- even the w8 lappie.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
I have W10 on PC, notebook and tablet. No unplanned reboots, no crashes, no problems. Maybe I am just lucky! ;P
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Joe Woodbury wrote:
"people who don't upgrade are just afraid of change."
That really is the most ridiculous argument. Some of us have been in this business for over thirty years, and our working lives have been one glorious upgrade after another. We Welcome upgrades! It's been our life to welcome upgrades! That's how we've lived, over the years! What ms has done to the UI and UX over the past few years has not been upgrading; it's been just one completely stupid and pointless change after another. The effluent interface? That's supposed to be more efficient and easier to use than the extant menus and toolbars? Is it bollocks. The baby-block "Start" is supposed to be more usable and intuitive than the Start menu? Is it bollocks. Invisibly clickable words are supposed to be easier to use than straight-forward buttons and highlighted text? Are they bollocks. Full-screen "apps" are supposed to be better than windows? Are they bollocks. Windows without distinctive title bars and borders are supposed to be easier to work with than windows where you can see where one window ends and the next one begins are supposed to make life easier? Do they bollocks. Etc. Instead of fixing the thousands of little things that caused minor problems to their users, they seem to be going out of their way to introduce a sh1tload of major problems on top of the minor problems that are still there. I'd pay a thousand for a windows update that said "Hey, it might not look like we've done much, but we've fixed all the little things that were annoying everyone!" Being an OS that fixed nothing, but just introduced new problems, winio was hugely overpriced at free.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
Yup, some of us have been in this business over 30 years, including me, and some of us have moved with the times. Frankly I would not still wish to be using ANSI Basic 1.0 or MASM 1.0 Sounds like with all the moans about "Start" you should use Classic Shell, or is that a tad too modern for you? ;P
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Are you suggesting subjective opinions don't count? In my view, whilst W10 gives good performance on (my) old hardware, its UI is horribly unintuitive - for just one example, how do you feel about scroll bars that disappear after a few seconds? Weeks before the launch in 2015, I left comments on the Insider Feedback 'thingy' expressing my amazement that MS had so little time left to fix some of the more egregious features - and they are still with us over a year later.
Um why do you want to 'see' the scroll bar if you are not using it? You know it is still there so what is the problem? My Mrs styles herself Annie O'Luddite. You would probably get on well with her. :laugh:
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I knew Win 8 sucked so I didn't upgrade - and I informed myself on the equipment compatible with Win 7 before buying new PCs. I know Win10 sucks hard so I won't upgrade to it - again I'll keep my Win7 until the hardware will be supported. If a version of VS needs Win10 I won't buy it - I don't code at home, and at work the responsibility for my platform isn't mine, nor the management of my time. Until the next one... after all I used WinXP at home up until 2012 and at work until 2016, with negligible problems on either software or games. So... if it sucks it remains there on the shelf.
GCS d--- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L- E-- W++ N++ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t++ 5? X R++ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++>+++ h--- ++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP. -- TNCaver When I was six, there were no ones and zeroes - only zeroes. And not all of them worked. -- Ravi Bhavnani
den2k88 wrote:
I knew Win 8 sucked so I didn't upgrade - and I informed myself on the equipment compatible with Win 7 before buying new PCs. I know Win10 sucks hard so I won't upgrade to it - again I'll keep my Win7 until the hardware will be supported. If a version of VS needs Win10 I won't buy it - I don't code at home, and at work the responsibility for my platform isn't mine, nor the management of my time. Until the next one... after all I used WinXP at home up until 2012 and at work until 2016, with negligible problems on either software or games. So... if it sucks it remains there on the shelf.
Yes Windows "evolution" remindes me of the old tale "The Emporer's New Clothes". The words "sheep' and "mass hypnosis" come to mind. I can only suspect that people that like W10 are 1.) simply bored and are adicted to constant change for change sake. 2.) don't actually do anything with their computers I have nothing but problems with it. Yes it does boot faster but so what? Uh...what else? Oh yes lets us make cosmetic change to our programs and resll them as "new improved" version. What a racket!
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I knew Win 8 sucked so I didn't upgrade - and I informed myself on the equipment compatible with Win 7 before buying new PCs. I know Win10 sucks hard so I won't upgrade to it - again I'll keep my Win7 until the hardware will be supported. If a version of VS needs Win10 I won't buy it - I don't code at home, and at work the responsibility for my platform isn't mine, nor the management of my time. Until the next one... after all I used WinXP at home up until 2012 and at work until 2016, with negligible problems on either software or games. So... if it sucks it remains there on the shelf.
GCS d--- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L- E-- W++ N++ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t++ 5? X R++ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++>+++ h--- ++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP. -- TNCaver When I was six, there were no ones and zeroes - only zeroes. And not all of them worked. -- Ravi Bhavnani
I've been a Windows die hard since 1.3 (yeah for real)... But I have to say that I'm seriously considering a different route for my personal use anymore. The evil empire has allured me and with w/10's unruly auto update schedule I am really seriously considering biting the bullet and getting an iMac and putting a VM up for what windows apps I need to run at home (should there be any after the shake out). So while all my Windows boxes at the house now run 10 (3 of them) today, I feel your pain. And I am a bit disillusioned with MS current offering and where they seem to be going.
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There's a radical difference between eating a turd sandwich and trying Windows 10. There's a joke in there somewhere.
This space for rent
A turd sandwich doesn't change itself with each new whim of the chef ... ?
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I only have one machine. Losing days to backup, try, fix, try, fix, fraking up, restoring just to try something new? Not a chance in hell, nor in heaven for that sake.
GCS d--- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L- E-- W++ N++ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t++ 5? X R++ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++>+++ h--- ++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP. -- TNCaver When I was six, there were no ones and zeroes - only zeroes. And not all of them worked. -- Ravi Bhavnani
I used to have only one computer, back then I either had dual-boot configured or I swapped main HDD to try other things. Now I have the chance to have many computers at home. So when something new comes around I upgrade the least useful machine and try it out there. Windows 10 tryout was so good now that all but one of my machine have Windows 10 (the one left with Windows 7 is connected to my TV and runs Media Center). At work I'm on Windows 7 and every single day I miss Windows 8.1/10 features like taskbar that extends to multiple monitors and app icons only on the monitor they are on. Windows 10 brought an amazing scrolling feature which have been in X-Windows since forever: scroll inactive window just by hovering your mouse over that window. I wouldn't go back to pre 8.1 versions of Windows.
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I used to have only one computer, back then I either had dual-boot configured or I swapped main HDD to try other things. Now I have the chance to have many computers at home. So when something new comes around I upgrade the least useful machine and try it out there. Windows 10 tryout was so good now that all but one of my machine have Windows 10 (the one left with Windows 7 is connected to my TV and runs Media Center). At work I'm on Windows 7 and every single day I miss Windows 8.1/10 features like taskbar that extends to multiple monitors and app icons only on the monitor they are on. Windows 10 brought an amazing scrolling feature which have been in X-Windows since forever: scroll inactive window just by hovering your mouse over that window. I wouldn't go back to pre 8.1 versions of Windows.
My experience with each one upgrade I ever made is worse than hellish, each freaking time. Update video drivers: black screen, even during clean reinstallation of Windows (somehow the id-10t loaded the resident drivers instead of the CD ones). Upgrade windows: hardware not functional and loss of data partition. Upgrade of Linux: oops, kernel panic! Install updates on work computer: got out of domain, VC++6 crashing during compile and VB6 crashing at startup. Updated Android on phone: 4 crashes/reboots per day, lost calls, battery life halved. I do not upgrade/update, period. Until upgrading/updating is unavoidable I do not do it, ever. Mind that most the times every other person I knew had done the same upgrades without any problem, and that I followed the instructions clearly and took extra precautions.
GCS d--- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L- E-- W++ N++ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t++ 5? X R++ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++>+++ h--- ++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP. -- TNCaver When I was six, there were no ones and zeroes - only zeroes. And not all of them worked. -- Ravi Bhavnani
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I knew Win 8 sucked so I didn't upgrade - and I informed myself on the equipment compatible with Win 7 before buying new PCs. I know Win10 sucks hard so I won't upgrade to it - again I'll keep my Win7 until the hardware will be supported. If a version of VS needs Win10 I won't buy it - I don't code at home, and at work the responsibility for my platform isn't mine, nor the management of my time. Until the next one... after all I used WinXP at home up until 2012 and at work until 2016, with negligible problems on either software or games. So... if it sucks it remains there on the shelf.
GCS d--- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L- E-- W++ N++ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t++ 5? X R++ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++>+++ h--- ++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP. -- TNCaver When I was six, there were no ones and zeroes - only zeroes. And not all of them worked. -- Ravi Bhavnani
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I have used Windows 8 and now use windows 10 with no issues. I us it mostly for programming but am quite happy. Make sure your hardware up to date and I think you would be happy.
Roger165 wrote:
Make sure your hardware up to date and I think you would be happy.
I definetely would be... I'd be glad even having the money for it. My current Pc is a 5.5 years old laptop so there's no room to improve. Next PC will be a self assembled desktop and I'll still put a Win7 on it except in the case some hw won't be compatible - highly improbable though.
GCS d--- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L- E-- W++ N++ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t++ 5? X R++ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++>+++ h--- ++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP. -- TNCaver When I was six, there were no ones and zeroes - only zeroes. And not all of them worked. -- Ravi Bhavnani
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There's a radical difference between eating a turd sandwich and trying Windows 10. There's a joke in there somewhere.
This space for rent
I'm not convinced that there is a difference... I urgently needed to use my Win10 PC this morning before rushing out the door to the office. I boot up to find that Win10 finally decided to update to the anniversary edition (which I didn't actually want, but it's not like we're given a choice any more). 20 minutes later, Windows finally booted. I received two notifications: 1. Updates were installed (Really? Hadn't noticed...) 2. Do you need help fixing your sound? (Huh? Oh, yay. You broke my sound in the update. Thankfully all it had done was switch the output source.)
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I knew Win 8 sucked so I didn't upgrade - and I informed myself on the equipment compatible with Win 7 before buying new PCs. I know Win10 sucks hard so I won't upgrade to it - again I'll keep my Win7 until the hardware will be supported. If a version of VS needs Win10 I won't buy it - I don't code at home, and at work the responsibility for my platform isn't mine, nor the management of my time. Until the next one... after all I used WinXP at home up until 2012 and at work until 2016, with negligible problems on either software or games. So... if it sucks it remains there on the shelf.
GCS d--- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L- E-- W++ N++ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t++ 5? X R++ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++>+++ h--- ++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP. -- TNCaver When I was six, there were no ones and zeroes - only zeroes. And not all of them worked. -- Ravi Bhavnani
Pitiful soul. Go ahead and stay with Windows XP for another five years then. Good for ya. I updated all my devices to windows 10 since last year, FYI. And I didn't encounter any of the problem you mentioned.
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Reviews, experience from my peers, system requirements, complains, look&feel. I never ever jump on the upgrades and take my time seeing all the various problems that arise. Games that I play eagerly that don't work on 8 and 8.1, bugs on new games... I speak only for my home PC, at work I don't care the OS they give me. If it hampers my productivity it is not my problem.
GCS d--- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L- E-- W++ N++ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t++ 5? X R++ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++>+++ h--- ++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP. -- TNCaver When I was six, there were no ones and zeroes - only zeroes. And not all of them worked. -- Ravi Bhavnani
You might want to give win 10 a try. Even win 8. What was so bad about either one of them, other than MS trying to force it down our throats.
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Pitiful soul. Go ahead and stay with Windows XP for another five years then. Good for ya. I updated all my devices to windows 10 since last year, FYI. And I didn't encounter any of the problem you mentioned.
At work we are still forced to keep XP since we have to support machines that costs more than a house for the next years - we also have some Win2k VMs because we sold it on our machines until 2008. And Win7 created a lot of problems in the beginning due to the myriad useless services it has that raise CPU/disk usage periodically and screws up our SW, which has to control hardware AND do heavy weight elaborations in real time. Windows 8 has been tried and dumped due to the ridiculous slowdowns it causes in the execution of the software - they were not there with XP, which we would have kept if not to comply with some BIG customer random IT policy (the machine is for all accounts an embedded piece of hardware so it should not be considered a workstation).
GCS d--- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L- E-- W++ N++ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t++ 5? X R++ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++>+++ h--- ++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP. -- TNCaver When I was six, there were no ones and zeroes - only zeroes. And not all of them worked. -- Ravi Bhavnani
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Um why do you want to 'see' the scroll bar if you are not using it? You know it is still there so what is the problem? My Mrs styles herself Annie O'Luddite. You would probably get on well with her. :laugh:
TheComputerMan wrote:
Um why do you want to 'see' the scroll bar if you are not using it? You know it is still there so what is the problem?
I should not rise to the bait, but in case your question was serious, and you have not experienced what it's like to use (or not use)... A fairly well known way of 'using' the scroll bar is to sit the mouse cursor in the area below the bar, and click to go down by a screenful - then read the page, and click again (with no mouse movement required) when ready for the next screen. Once the scroll bar has disappeared, clicking does nothing, and one has to move the mouse (but not too far, mind) to make it appear again. This is just silly. It seems obvious the screen behaviour was tailored for touch use, with no thought given to mousers. BTW, I might ask: why hide the scroll bar when there is nothing 'behind' it to see?
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Are you suggesting subjective opinions don't count? In my view, whilst W10 gives good performance on (my) old hardware, its UI is horribly unintuitive - for just one example, how do you feel about scroll bars that disappear after a few seconds? Weeks before the launch in 2015, I left comments on the Insider Feedback 'thingy' expressing my amazement that MS had so little time left to fix some of the more egregious features - and they are still with us over a year later.
Are you seriously arguing this? When something is subjective, it means you can't prove it's better. That's all.
mngerhold wrote:
how do you feel about scroll bars that disappear after a few seconds?
I think it's great. Which proves nothing. Or are you suggesting that the only opinion that counts is your own? Seems that's the attitude on this thread.