I can't see all the problems with upgrades
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I really liked Windows 8.1 and still like it more than Windows 10, but the future marches on and so will I. It really isn't bad and to quote my even more [that I] cynical 25-year-old son "people who don't upgrade are just afraid of change." (The Window 10 build from February was a big improvement over the original. The anniversary edition had some issues, but fixed some other things. Subsequent patches have worked well. Video Drivers and Flash generally remain the most destabilizing aspects, though lately it's been the latest release of World of Tanks!)
Joe Woodbury wrote:
people who don't upgrade are just afraid of change
Exactly! And refusing to change just means we fall behind.
Jeremy Falcon
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I really liked Windows 8.1 and still like it more than Windows 10, but the future marches on and so will I. It really isn't bad and to quote my even more [that I] cynical 25-year-old son "people who don't upgrade are just afraid of change." (The Window 10 build from February was a big improvement over the original. The anniversary edition had some issues, but fixed some other things. Subsequent patches have worked well. Video Drivers and Flash generally remain the most destabilizing aspects, though lately it's been the latest release of World of Tanks!)
Joe Woodbury wrote:
"people who don't upgrade are just afraid of change."
That really is the most ridiculous argument. Some of us have been in this business for over thirty years, and our working lives have been one glorious upgrade after another. We Welcome upgrades! It's been our life to welcome upgrades! That's how we've lived, over the years! What ms has done to the UI and UX over the past few years has not been upgrading; it's been just one completely stupid and pointless change after another. The effluent interface? That's supposed to be more efficient and easier to use than the extant menus and toolbars? Is it bollocks. The baby-block "Start" is supposed to be more usable and intuitive than the Start menu? Is it bollocks. Invisibly clickable words are supposed to be easier to use than straight-forward buttons and highlighted text? Are they bollocks. Full-screen "apps" are supposed to be better than windows? Are they bollocks. Windows without distinctive title bars and borders are supposed to be easier to work with than windows where you can see where one window ends and the next one begins are supposed to make life easier? Do they bollocks. Etc. Instead of fixing the thousands of little things that caused minor problems to their users, they seem to be going out of their way to introduce a sh1tload of major problems on top of the minor problems that are still there. I'd pay a thousand for a windows update that said "Hey, it might not look like we've done much, but we've fixed all the little things that were annoying everyone!" Being an OS that fixed nothing, but just introduced new problems, winio was hugely overpriced at free.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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Joe Woodbury wrote:
"people who don't upgrade are just afraid of change."
That really is the most ridiculous argument. Some of us have been in this business for over thirty years, and our working lives have been one glorious upgrade after another. We Welcome upgrades! It's been our life to welcome upgrades! That's how we've lived, over the years! What ms has done to the UI and UX over the past few years has not been upgrading; it's been just one completely stupid and pointless change after another. The effluent interface? That's supposed to be more efficient and easier to use than the extant menus and toolbars? Is it bollocks. The baby-block "Start" is supposed to be more usable and intuitive than the Start menu? Is it bollocks. Invisibly clickable words are supposed to be easier to use than straight-forward buttons and highlighted text? Are they bollocks. Full-screen "apps" are supposed to be better than windows? Are they bollocks. Windows without distinctive title bars and borders are supposed to be easier to work with than windows where you can see where one window ends and the next one begins are supposed to make life easier? Do they bollocks. Etc. Instead of fixing the thousands of little things that caused minor problems to their users, they seem to be going out of their way to introduce a sh1tload of major problems on top of the minor problems that are still there. I'd pay a thousand for a windows update that said "Hey, it might not look like we've done much, but we've fixed all the little things that were annoying everyone!" Being an OS that fixed nothing, but just introduced new problems, winio was hugely overpriced at free.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
Your reasons are entirely superficial. The humorous thing is that I heard a very similar list of complaints with Windows 98, XP and Seven. Man did people hate Windows 7 when it first came out.
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Your reasons are entirely superficial. The humorous thing is that I heard a very similar list of complaints with Windows 98, XP and Seven. Man did people hate Windows 7 when it first came out.
Joe Woodbury wrote:
Your reasons are entirely superficial.
Are they bollocks. Respond to each point, if that's the case. 0. Tell me how the effluent interface is better than menus and toolbars. 1. Tell me how the baby-blocks "Start" is more usable and intuitive than the Start menu. 2. Tell me how invisibly clickable words are easier to use than straight-forward buttons and highlighted text. 3. Tell me how full-screen "apps" are better than windows. 4. Tell me how windows without distinctive title bars and borders are easier to work with than windows where you can see where one window ends and the next one begins The argument "Oh, you're just being superficial" isn't an argument, it's either troll talk or marketing talk. Either way, you're making yourself look very bad.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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Joe Woodbury wrote:
Your reasons are entirely superficial.
Are they bollocks. Respond to each point, if that's the case. 0. Tell me how the effluent interface is better than menus and toolbars. 1. Tell me how the baby-blocks "Start" is more usable and intuitive than the Start menu. 2. Tell me how invisibly clickable words are easier to use than straight-forward buttons and highlighted text. 3. Tell me how full-screen "apps" are better than windows. 4. Tell me how windows without distinctive title bars and borders are easier to work with than windows where you can see where one window ends and the next one begins The argument "Oh, you're just being superficial" isn't an argument, it's either troll talk or marketing talk. Either way, you're making yourself look very bad.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
Your points are about entirely subjective things. I resisted Windows 8 because of the start menu and dropping Aero. Then I started using it just before 8.1 was released. To my surprise, I liked the start screen and didn't miss Aero. To the point where I found going back to Windows 7 annoying. I still do. Horror of horrors I've even adjusted to using the ribbon and have even found that on some apps, like Windows Explorer, it's a genuine improvement.
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Richard MacCutchan wrote:
that does not mean that 10 is bad per se
I never stated that, even if there is a shift of paradigm towards apps and Saas that I really don't like. Also the "all the world is a tablet", no it's not and yes I want my desktop as it was in 7.
GCS d--- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L- E-- W++ N++ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t++ 5? X R++ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++>+++ h--- ++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP. -- TNCaver When I was six, there were no ones and zeroes - only zeroes. And not all of them worked. -- Ravi Bhavnani
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The trouble is all the people who are happy with Windows 10 tend not to make a fuss and write on forums about it. So because a few people complain you assume (wrongly) it sucks. The reality is that Windows 10 is quite stable, and has a much better look and feel than 8/8.1. Windows 7 might have been a more comfortable experience, but 10 does not take a lot of getting used to. There are things I am not keen on but overall it does what I want.
Richard MacCutchan wrote:
The reality is that Windows 10 is quite stable
I haven't found that. It hides the some of the application crashes (particularly explorer.exe -- check your logs) better, by putting up screenshots of what was on the screen when it crashed, but the number of "unplanned" reboots is ridiculously high for a modern OS (i.e. often more than once a week). And that's not counting the "I'm updating! Screw you!" reboots. Granted, I only have it on a tablet, but that's what it's designed for ("MOBILE FIRST!") No way would I risk "upgrading" any of my actual computers to it -- even the w8 lappie.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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Richard MacCutchan wrote:
The reality is that Windows 10 is quite stable
I haven't found that. It hides the some of the application crashes (particularly explorer.exe -- check your logs) better, by putting up screenshots of what was on the screen when it crashed, but the number of "unplanned" reboots is ridiculously high for a modern OS (i.e. often more than once a week). And that's not counting the "I'm updating! Screw you!" reboots. Granted, I only have it on a tablet, but that's what it's designed for ("MOBILE FIRST!") No way would I risk "upgrading" any of my actual computers to it -- even the w8 lappie.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
No, none, not happened. Sorry, but my experience is that Windows 10 is very stable, and does not make arbitrary decisions to reboot while I am in the middle of doing something important*. My version obviously has a major flaw compared to nearly everyone else in this thread; and that is still a very small percentage of Windows 10 users worldwide. *Not that much of what I do could really be described as important anyway.
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No, none, not happened. Sorry, but my experience is that Windows 10 is very stable, and does not make arbitrary decisions to reboot while I am in the middle of doing something important*. My version obviously has a major flaw compared to nearly everyone else in this thread; and that is still a very small percentage of Windows 10 users worldwide. *Not that much of what I do could really be described as important anyway.
Richard MacCutchan wrote:
my experience is that Windows 10 is very stable, and does not make arbitrary decisions to reboot while I am in the middle of doing something important
It hasn't done it while I've had it in my hand, but I've many times picked it up after 10 mins to half an hour to find that nothing is running because it's clean booted. I haven't spent any time investigating why, because it's not a "vital" piece of kit -- but I won't risk the same experience on kit that is vital.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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Your points are about entirely subjective things. I resisted Windows 8 because of the start menu and dropping Aero. Then I started using it just before 8.1 was released. To my surprise, I liked the start screen and didn't miss Aero. To the point where I found going back to Windows 7 annoying. I still do. Horror of horrors I've even adjusted to using the ribbon and have even found that on some apps, like Windows Explorer, it's a genuine improvement.
Are you suggesting subjective opinions don't count? In my view, whilst W10 gives good performance on (my) old hardware, its UI is horribly unintuitive - for just one example, how do you feel about scroll bars that disappear after a few seconds? Weeks before the launch in 2015, I left comments on the Insider Feedback 'thingy' expressing my amazement that MS had so little time left to fix some of the more egregious features - and they are still with us over a year later.
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den2k88 wrote:
Reviews, experience from my peers, system requirements, complains, look&feel.
That's what I've heard too. Most folks, especially the anti-Windows folks tell the same story. I know there are imperfections and I haven't upgraded to Win 10 yet because of it, or because of what I've heard from others. I'm just too busy to do the update. :rolleyes: Today, I'm about to update it to Win 10 because I need to test out the docker support for .net core. So fingers cross. :-D
I upgraded to Win 10 and have never had a problem with it. Maybe because I don't play any games - only use it for development and browsing. Sure it needs a bit of tweaking to make it behave but with Classic Shell installed because I don't like tiles basically all the rest is exactly the same under the hood, apart from very minor differences, to XP. My laptop is Win 10 now and also my tablet so I guess I have embraced Windows 10!
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Richard MacCutchan wrote:
The reality is that Windows 10 is quite stable
I haven't found that. It hides the some of the application crashes (particularly explorer.exe -- check your logs) better, by putting up screenshots of what was on the screen when it crashed, but the number of "unplanned" reboots is ridiculously high for a modern OS (i.e. often more than once a week). And that's not counting the "I'm updating! Screw you!" reboots. Granted, I only have it on a tablet, but that's what it's designed for ("MOBILE FIRST!") No way would I risk "upgrading" any of my actual computers to it -- even the w8 lappie.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
I have W10 on PC, notebook and tablet. No unplanned reboots, no crashes, no problems. Maybe I am just lucky! ;P
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Joe Woodbury wrote:
"people who don't upgrade are just afraid of change."
That really is the most ridiculous argument. Some of us have been in this business for over thirty years, and our working lives have been one glorious upgrade after another. We Welcome upgrades! It's been our life to welcome upgrades! That's how we've lived, over the years! What ms has done to the UI and UX over the past few years has not been upgrading; it's been just one completely stupid and pointless change after another. The effluent interface? That's supposed to be more efficient and easier to use than the extant menus and toolbars? Is it bollocks. The baby-block "Start" is supposed to be more usable and intuitive than the Start menu? Is it bollocks. Invisibly clickable words are supposed to be easier to use than straight-forward buttons and highlighted text? Are they bollocks. Full-screen "apps" are supposed to be better than windows? Are they bollocks. Windows without distinctive title bars and borders are supposed to be easier to work with than windows where you can see where one window ends and the next one begins are supposed to make life easier? Do they bollocks. Etc. Instead of fixing the thousands of little things that caused minor problems to their users, they seem to be going out of their way to introduce a sh1tload of major problems on top of the minor problems that are still there. I'd pay a thousand for a windows update that said "Hey, it might not look like we've done much, but we've fixed all the little things that were annoying everyone!" Being an OS that fixed nothing, but just introduced new problems, winio was hugely overpriced at free.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
Yup, some of us have been in this business over 30 years, including me, and some of us have moved with the times. Frankly I would not still wish to be using ANSI Basic 1.0 or MASM 1.0 Sounds like with all the moans about "Start" you should use Classic Shell, or is that a tad too modern for you? ;P
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Are you suggesting subjective opinions don't count? In my view, whilst W10 gives good performance on (my) old hardware, its UI is horribly unintuitive - for just one example, how do you feel about scroll bars that disappear after a few seconds? Weeks before the launch in 2015, I left comments on the Insider Feedback 'thingy' expressing my amazement that MS had so little time left to fix some of the more egregious features - and they are still with us over a year later.
Um why do you want to 'see' the scroll bar if you are not using it? You know it is still there so what is the problem? My Mrs styles herself Annie O'Luddite. You would probably get on well with her. :laugh:
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I knew Win 8 sucked so I didn't upgrade - and I informed myself on the equipment compatible with Win 7 before buying new PCs. I know Win10 sucks hard so I won't upgrade to it - again I'll keep my Win7 until the hardware will be supported. If a version of VS needs Win10 I won't buy it - I don't code at home, and at work the responsibility for my platform isn't mine, nor the management of my time. Until the next one... after all I used WinXP at home up until 2012 and at work until 2016, with negligible problems on either software or games. So... if it sucks it remains there on the shelf.
GCS d--- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L- E-- W++ N++ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t++ 5? X R++ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++>+++ h--- ++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP. -- TNCaver When I was six, there were no ones and zeroes - only zeroes. And not all of them worked. -- Ravi Bhavnani
den2k88 wrote:
I knew Win 8 sucked so I didn't upgrade - and I informed myself on the equipment compatible with Win 7 before buying new PCs. I know Win10 sucks hard so I won't upgrade to it - again I'll keep my Win7 until the hardware will be supported. If a version of VS needs Win10 I won't buy it - I don't code at home, and at work the responsibility for my platform isn't mine, nor the management of my time. Until the next one... after all I used WinXP at home up until 2012 and at work until 2016, with negligible problems on either software or games. So... if it sucks it remains there on the shelf.
Yes Windows "evolution" remindes me of the old tale "The Emporer's New Clothes". The words "sheep' and "mass hypnosis" come to mind. I can only suspect that people that like W10 are 1.) simply bored and are adicted to constant change for change sake. 2.) don't actually do anything with their computers I have nothing but problems with it. Yes it does boot faster but so what? Uh...what else? Oh yes lets us make cosmetic change to our programs and resll them as "new improved" version. What a racket!
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I knew Win 8 sucked so I didn't upgrade - and I informed myself on the equipment compatible with Win 7 before buying new PCs. I know Win10 sucks hard so I won't upgrade to it - again I'll keep my Win7 until the hardware will be supported. If a version of VS needs Win10 I won't buy it - I don't code at home, and at work the responsibility for my platform isn't mine, nor the management of my time. Until the next one... after all I used WinXP at home up until 2012 and at work until 2016, with negligible problems on either software or games. So... if it sucks it remains there on the shelf.
GCS d--- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L- E-- W++ N++ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t++ 5? X R++ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++>+++ h--- ++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP. -- TNCaver When I was six, there were no ones and zeroes - only zeroes. And not all of them worked. -- Ravi Bhavnani
I've been a Windows die hard since 1.3 (yeah for real)... But I have to say that I'm seriously considering a different route for my personal use anymore. The evil empire has allured me and with w/10's unruly auto update schedule I am really seriously considering biting the bullet and getting an iMac and putting a VM up for what windows apps I need to run at home (should there be any after the shake out). So while all my Windows boxes at the house now run 10 (3 of them) today, I feel your pain. And I am a bit disillusioned with MS current offering and where they seem to be going.
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There's a radical difference between eating a turd sandwich and trying Windows 10. There's a joke in there somewhere.
This space for rent
A turd sandwich doesn't change itself with each new whim of the chef ... ?
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I only have one machine. Losing days to backup, try, fix, try, fix, fraking up, restoring just to try something new? Not a chance in hell, nor in heaven for that sake.
GCS d--- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L- E-- W++ N++ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t++ 5? X R++ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++>+++ h--- ++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP. -- TNCaver When I was six, there were no ones and zeroes - only zeroes. And not all of them worked. -- Ravi Bhavnani
I used to have only one computer, back then I either had dual-boot configured or I swapped main HDD to try other things. Now I have the chance to have many computers at home. So when something new comes around I upgrade the least useful machine and try it out there. Windows 10 tryout was so good now that all but one of my machine have Windows 10 (the one left with Windows 7 is connected to my TV and runs Media Center). At work I'm on Windows 7 and every single day I miss Windows 8.1/10 features like taskbar that extends to multiple monitors and app icons only on the monitor they are on. Windows 10 brought an amazing scrolling feature which have been in X-Windows since forever: scroll inactive window just by hovering your mouse over that window. I wouldn't go back to pre 8.1 versions of Windows.
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I used to have only one computer, back then I either had dual-boot configured or I swapped main HDD to try other things. Now I have the chance to have many computers at home. So when something new comes around I upgrade the least useful machine and try it out there. Windows 10 tryout was so good now that all but one of my machine have Windows 10 (the one left with Windows 7 is connected to my TV and runs Media Center). At work I'm on Windows 7 and every single day I miss Windows 8.1/10 features like taskbar that extends to multiple monitors and app icons only on the monitor they are on. Windows 10 brought an amazing scrolling feature which have been in X-Windows since forever: scroll inactive window just by hovering your mouse over that window. I wouldn't go back to pre 8.1 versions of Windows.
My experience with each one upgrade I ever made is worse than hellish, each freaking time. Update video drivers: black screen, even during clean reinstallation of Windows (somehow the id-10t loaded the resident drivers instead of the CD ones). Upgrade windows: hardware not functional and loss of data partition. Upgrade of Linux: oops, kernel panic! Install updates on work computer: got out of domain, VC++6 crashing during compile and VB6 crashing at startup. Updated Android on phone: 4 crashes/reboots per day, lost calls, battery life halved. I do not upgrade/update, period. Until upgrading/updating is unavoidable I do not do it, ever. Mind that most the times every other person I knew had done the same upgrades without any problem, and that I followed the instructions clearly and took extra precautions.
GCS d--- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L- E-- W++ N++ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t++ 5? X R++ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++>+++ h--- ++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP. -- TNCaver When I was six, there were no ones and zeroes - only zeroes. And not all of them worked. -- Ravi Bhavnani
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I knew Win 8 sucked so I didn't upgrade - and I informed myself on the equipment compatible with Win 7 before buying new PCs. I know Win10 sucks hard so I won't upgrade to it - again I'll keep my Win7 until the hardware will be supported. If a version of VS needs Win10 I won't buy it - I don't code at home, and at work the responsibility for my platform isn't mine, nor the management of my time. Until the next one... after all I used WinXP at home up until 2012 and at work until 2016, with negligible problems on either software or games. So... if it sucks it remains there on the shelf.
GCS d--- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L- E-- W++ N++ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t++ 5? X R++ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++>+++ h--- ++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP. -- TNCaver When I was six, there were no ones and zeroes - only zeroes. And not all of them worked. -- Ravi Bhavnani