Making a living as a Programmer? Freelance?
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Should've said, read more about Schrödinger's cat[^]. :laugh:
The shit I complain about It's like there ain't a cloud in the sky and it's raining out - Eminem ~! Firewall !~
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Absolutely no idea. Yes, it is possible to make a comfortable living - even a good one - as a developer it depends on too many factors to be able to say "go for it!". Do you have any aptitude for it? Any ability? Or are you just going to find that it is actually hard work and get bored? I dunno, and I suspect neither do you. Not everybody that wants to can do it the job: it takes a "mind set" than many just don't have - for proof go look at the sewer that is QA and see how many people are having problems with basic stuff despite apparently having a job in the industry. So assume you might be capable and invest your time, effort and a little bit of money in training: a good book1 or better a course to see if you can do it. Pick a language (C# is a good start) and start learning it properly. See if it fits you, and you fit it! 1: Addison-Wesley do good ones, as do Wrox, and Microsoft Press - avoid anything with multiple exclamation marks, "in XXX days", or "for dummies" in the title.
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
OriginalGriff wrote:
or "for dummies" in the title.
I disagree. OP just wants to get exposed to various languages and possibilities. I think the Dummies books are exactly what the OP should go for. Simple, not too in depth, but enough for OP to find out if they may want to continue in it.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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Hi everyone! I'm new here and to programming/coding in general. I'm currently an IT systems/network admin and I'm growing a bit tired of the work. I still want to work with computers, but am not sure which way to go. I've been going through all kinds of beginner books....html, some resources on Mac and Windows programming. Just trying to get my bearings and figure out which way to do with it, but the honest question is: Can I make a decent living being a programmer/developer/coder? Will I have job security? Is being a freelance programmer a good idea or even feasible? I've heard plenty of horror stories of development being outsourced, etc. Can anyone out there speak of their experiences as a programmer, either at a 9-5 kind of job or as a freelancer? I appreciate any insight and guidance.
The danger here is you're asking a bunch of hardcore tech-heads for their warped opinions! Personally, I think that if you couldn't program in assembly language before blowing the candles out on your 10th birthday cake then you must wholly inadequate as a programmer. The reality though is that most people with IT jobs aren't that into it and get by just fine. If someone is going to pay you, it won't be for the elegance of your code. It'll generally be for producing something which is *just* good enough but does what they want. In finance (my domain), you can earn an absolute fortune writing little twiddly Excel VBA macros with a bit of business knowledge because finance loves Excel. Hacky or not, no-one cares. I don't do that though, because I hate Excel. Freelancing is very doable, as you are super-expendable as opposed to a permanent employee who you have to make redundant + make all sorts of other sacrifices and who might scream cries of 'unfair dismissal' when you try and boot them out. Outsourcing happens a lot, but they usually reverse it after a few years having realized what a bloody awful idea it was in the first place. As someone else said, in this mean world there is little job security or loyalty any more, but no more so in IT than any other industry. I say go for it, but for the love of God, don't do Java... :)
Regards, Rob Philpott.
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Hi everyone! I'm new here and to programming/coding in general. I'm currently an IT systems/network admin and I'm growing a bit tired of the work. I still want to work with computers, but am not sure which way to go. I've been going through all kinds of beginner books....html, some resources on Mac and Windows programming. Just trying to get my bearings and figure out which way to do with it, but the honest question is: Can I make a decent living being a programmer/developer/coder? Will I have job security? Is being a freelance programmer a good idea or even feasible? I've heard plenty of horror stories of development being outsourced, etc. Can anyone out there speak of their experiences as a programmer, either at a 9-5 kind of job or as a freelancer? I appreciate any insight and guidance.
Yes you can, but be prepared to start at the bottom, and suck up as much knowledge from those around you. In my experience, don't other with certifications, experience is way more valuable. If you are good/lucky you can work your way up the chain pretty quickly. To do this, be prepared to move fairly often [maybe every 2 years] to keep yourself motivated and to learn different skills/industries. If you're prepared to move often, job security is probably less relevant.
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The danger here is you're asking a bunch of hardcore tech-heads for their warped opinions! Personally, I think that if you couldn't program in assembly language before blowing the candles out on your 10th birthday cake then you must wholly inadequate as a programmer. The reality though is that most people with IT jobs aren't that into it and get by just fine. If someone is going to pay you, it won't be for the elegance of your code. It'll generally be for producing something which is *just* good enough but does what they want. In finance (my domain), you can earn an absolute fortune writing little twiddly Excel VBA macros with a bit of business knowledge because finance loves Excel. Hacky or not, no-one cares. I don't do that though, because I hate Excel. Freelancing is very doable, as you are super-expendable as opposed to a permanent employee who you have to make redundant + make all sorts of other sacrifices and who might scream cries of 'unfair dismissal' when you try and boot them out. Outsourcing happens a lot, but they usually reverse it after a few years having realized what a bloody awful idea it was in the first place. As someone else said, in this mean world there is little job security or loyalty any more, but no more so in IT than any other industry. I say go for it, but for the love of God, don't do Java... :)
Regards, Rob Philpott.
Rob Philpott wrote:
The danger here is you're asking a bunch of hardcore tech-heads for their warped opinions! Personally, I think that if you couldn't program in assembly language before blowing the candles out on your 10th birthday cake then you must wholly inadequate as a programmer
You've pretty much proven your first point with what immediately followed it. What curriculum even teaches the kids assembly nowadays?
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Hi everyone! I'm new here and to programming/coding in general. I'm currently an IT systems/network admin and I'm growing a bit tired of the work. I still want to work with computers, but am not sure which way to go. I've been going through all kinds of beginner books....html, some resources on Mac and Windows programming. Just trying to get my bearings and figure out which way to do with it, but the honest question is: Can I make a decent living being a programmer/developer/coder? Will I have job security? Is being a freelance programmer a good idea or even feasible? I've heard plenty of horror stories of development being outsourced, etc. Can anyone out there speak of their experiences as a programmer, either at a 9-5 kind of job or as a freelancer? I appreciate any insight and guidance.
How are your "marketing" abilities? You can be the "greatest" programmer (whatever) ... but if you can't "sell" yourself (or have someone do it for you), you won't get anywhere. So, besides (some) skill in programming, you need: confidence; good spelling / grammar; able to craft a custom cover letter; bid, estimate and schedule intelligently; etc. You "job security" (LOL) is dependent on how well you master the above (and then some).
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Hi everyone! I'm new here and to programming/coding in general. I'm currently an IT systems/network admin and I'm growing a bit tired of the work. I still want to work with computers, but am not sure which way to go. I've been going through all kinds of beginner books....html, some resources on Mac and Windows programming. Just trying to get my bearings and figure out which way to do with it, but the honest question is: Can I make a decent living being a programmer/developer/coder? Will I have job security? Is being a freelance programmer a good idea or even feasible? I've heard plenty of horror stories of development being outsourced, etc. Can anyone out there speak of their experiences as a programmer, either at a 9-5 kind of job or as a freelancer? I appreciate any insight and guidance.
CableX1 wrote:
Can I make a decent living being a programmer/developer/coder?
Depends heavily on your locale.
CableX1 wrote:
Will I have job security?
Once you become good, you can stop caring about that. There's enough jobs out there that need to be done.
CableX1 wrote:
either at a 9-5 kind of job
You mean an employee; most companies expect you to 'not have a 9-5 mentality'. In which case your first question should be whether that also counts for the pay.
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^][](X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett)
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Should've said, read more about Schrödinger's cat[^]. :laugh:
The shit I complain about It's like there ain't a cloud in the sky and it's raining out - Eminem ~! Firewall !~
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Hi everyone! I'm new here and to programming/coding in general. I'm currently an IT systems/network admin and I'm growing a bit tired of the work. I still want to work with computers, but am not sure which way to go. I've been going through all kinds of beginner books....html, some resources on Mac and Windows programming. Just trying to get my bearings and figure out which way to do with it, but the honest question is: Can I make a decent living being a programmer/developer/coder? Will I have job security? Is being a freelance programmer a good idea or even feasible? I've heard plenty of horror stories of development being outsourced, etc. Can anyone out there speak of their experiences as a programmer, either at a 9-5 kind of job or as a freelancer? I appreciate any insight and guidance.
Thanks for all the responses, everyone...they are much appreciated! Programming has been in an out of my life in various ways. Took a BASIC class in high school a LONG time ago, tried making websites a little back when the internet was relatively brand new and that's about it. I like the creative aspect of it the most. You are making something in the end...I find that a bit more appealing than managing servers, switches and applying Windows Updates, hoping they don't blow anything up. Freelancing would be something far in the future, if I would even want to go in that direction. I've realized that all along, but naturally would like to hear current experiences. The road sounds exactly as I imagined....learn, learn, learn, code, code, code...get the experience and that will lead the way from there. I have started out with the Dummies books. I know that eyes will roll and I get it, but I found it was the best way to get my feet wet. I have other books that are way more technical, so really, the Dummies books are just the shallow end of the pool for me...the ankle deep pool, that is. I'm thinking of going more the Windows route, but am considering the mobile route too. The Mac one would be more for fun. Some of the interesting things I've heard from various people: "You can find a lot of work doing javascript." "My friend took a mobile app series of classes and is now doing that, making tons of money!" I take everything I hear with a grain of salt and as a side note, I'm not about making a ton of money. Would be nice, but I have a family to support, so that's where my head is at. I'm not going into this with $$$ in my eyes and insane expectations. Please, continue with any comments or experiences. The more information, the better.
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I was a drummer in a rock band at my university called "Schrödinger's cat". Guess how many Physics Majors were in that band!
- I would love to change the world, but they won’t give me the source code.
None. :laugh:
The shit I complain about It's like there ain't a cloud in the sky and it's raining out - Eminem ~! Firewall !~
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None. :laugh:
The shit I complain about It's like there ain't a cloud in the sky and it's raining out - Eminem ~! Firewall !~
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Thanks for all the responses, everyone...they are much appreciated! Programming has been in an out of my life in various ways. Took a BASIC class in high school a LONG time ago, tried making websites a little back when the internet was relatively brand new and that's about it. I like the creative aspect of it the most. You are making something in the end...I find that a bit more appealing than managing servers, switches and applying Windows Updates, hoping they don't blow anything up. Freelancing would be something far in the future, if I would even want to go in that direction. I've realized that all along, but naturally would like to hear current experiences. The road sounds exactly as I imagined....learn, learn, learn, code, code, code...get the experience and that will lead the way from there. I have started out with the Dummies books. I know that eyes will roll and I get it, but I found it was the best way to get my feet wet. I have other books that are way more technical, so really, the Dummies books are just the shallow end of the pool for me...the ankle deep pool, that is. I'm thinking of going more the Windows route, but am considering the mobile route too. The Mac one would be more for fun. Some of the interesting things I've heard from various people: "You can find a lot of work doing javascript." "My friend took a mobile app series of classes and is now doing that, making tons of money!" I take everything I hear with a grain of salt and as a side note, I'm not about making a ton of money. Would be nice, but I have a family to support, so that's where my head is at. I'm not going into this with $$$ in my eyes and insane expectations. Please, continue with any comments or experiences. The more information, the better.
IMHO, the key to success is experience. The field is way too large for most devs to have both wide and deep knowledge. (I know I don't.) I started out by writing desktop applications (I enjoy working with rich UIs) and have built Windows apps for about 20 years, and server-side code (also Windows) for about a decade, and now work on server-side code and mobile (specifically Android) UIs. My language of choice is C# (Xamarin allows me to build Android apps in C#). Choosing Windows (vs. the Mac) was a decision I made in the early 90s (I found the Petzold book easier to read than the Mac doc set) and have since been comfortably nestled in that technology. My knowledge of web front ends and things NodeJS or Pythonesque is less than zero, but that's OK. I love what I do and am happy there's a market for it. I've never selected a technology because it pays well. Instead, I look for opportunities that allow me to grow my knowledge. I hope my aimless writing provides food for thought. /ravi
My new year resolution: 2048 x 1536 Home | Articles | My .NET bits | Freeware ravib(at)ravib(dot)com
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I was a drummer in a rock band at my university called "Schrödinger's cat". Guess how many Physics Majors were in that band!
- I would love to change the world, but they won’t give me the source code.
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Hi everyone! I'm new here and to programming/coding in general. I'm currently an IT systems/network admin and I'm growing a bit tired of the work. I still want to work with computers, but am not sure which way to go. I've been going through all kinds of beginner books....html, some resources on Mac and Windows programming. Just trying to get my bearings and figure out which way to do with it, but the honest question is: Can I make a decent living being a programmer/developer/coder? Will I have job security? Is being a freelance programmer a good idea or even feasible? I've heard plenty of horror stories of development being outsourced, etc. Can anyone out there speak of their experiences as a programmer, either at a 9-5 kind of job or as a freelancer? I appreciate any insight and guidance.
I'm a freelancer, but work is scarce. I don't use the freelancer sites, as way too many projects there for for mobile, and I only did my first Android app last week, and they're a little too impersonal; people don't look at your profile, only your record on the site and rep points. I have now started an intense campaign to convince small and home businesses of the need to be online, and online properly, not just a Facebook page, and definitely not a *@gamil.com address.
Follow my adventures with .NET Core at my new blog, Erisia Information Services.
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CableX1 wrote:
Can I make a decent living being a programmer/developer/coder?
Certainly. You can even make a decent living as a not so decent programmer/developer/coder. I see it all the time.
CableX1 wrote:
Will I have job security?
Whether you're a decent programmer or not, job security depends mostly on whatever mental illness the management has. And they almost all do, and it all affects the decision making. The real question is, will you have "career" security. Sure. I'd suggest finding companies that are writing the code that can then write the code the rest of us are writing. ;)
CableX1 wrote:
Is being a freelance programmer a good idea or even feasible?
As a beginner programmer, no, not feasible (except for, well, that's another story.) To be a freelance programmer, you need experience, an established client base and most importantly, an established network of friends, coworkers, recruiters, and clients that will recommend you to others.
CableX1 wrote:
I've heard plenty of horror stories of development being outsourced, etc.
That'll never go away. The better your skills are, the less you have to worry about that. And by skills, I mostly mean being able to speak the language of the client's/employer's country clearly. :)
CableX1 wrote:
Can anyone out there speak of their experiences as a programmer, either at a 9-5 kind of job or as a freelancer?
Sure. 9-5: Cons: Ridiculous meetings, lots of interruptions, commuting, cubicles, pigeon holing, office politics Pros: Peers, camaraderie, social contact Freelancing: Cons: Often solo, income great one week, 0 the next, more difficult to find contract work, often cleaning up someone else's mess, possible longer commutes Pros: Often solo, income can be great, work is usually more challenging and interesting, contact is more often with the real decision makers, less office politics, much fewer meetings, sometimes remote My 2c. Marc
Imperative to Functional Programming Succinctly Contributors Wanted for Higher Order Programming Project! Learning
Marc Clifton wrote:
CableX1 wrote:
Can anyone out there speak of their experiences as a programmer, either at a 9-5 kind of job or as a freelancer?
Sure. 9-5: Cons: Ridiculous meetings, lots of interruptions, commuting, cubicles, pigeon holing, office politics Pros: Peers, camaraderie, social contact Freelancing: Cons: Often solo, income great one week, 0 the next, more difficult to find contract work, often cleaning up someone else's mess, possible longer commutes Pros: Often solo, income can be great, work is usually more challenging and interesting, contact is more often with the real decision makers, less office politics, much fewer meetings, sometimes remote
Methinks you forgot to mention: 9 - 5: You work 9 - 5, then get to go home and not work, and even after a bad day by 7pm you're doing your own thing because nothing matters till 09:00 the next day. Freelancing: Sometimes you work 09:00 - 05:00 (yes, 20 hours straight), notice the sun coming up, shower, sleep for a few hours, and then at 09:00 repeat the same again (without even realizing 2 - 4 weekends have come and gone), and sometimes you work 11:00 - 11:23 and then go surfing for 3 days ... In either case above: your mind will will be on it 24/7 - and sometimes that will only start to fade up to a month after the project ends. But then you will know you are a freelancer. (... and being able to switch off at 5PM [and not give a s***] will be the life you dream of.)
Sin tack ear lol Pressing the "Any" key may be continuate
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Of course you can make a living from being a programmer, how good a living depends on how good a programmer and what kind of industry you get into. I'd tread careful about being a freelancer, as I think you're pretty ripe for getting scammed. Looking at job postings on freelancer sites they're usually worded such that you know they're planning on ripping you off. You'd be better getting a normal 9-5 I think, then look at moving on to contract work if the freelancer thing appeals to you.
F-ES Sitecore wrote:
Looking at job postings on freelancer sites they're usually worded such that you know they're planning on ripping you off.
How so, and which sites? I havent seen any job ads that made me suspicious, but I am in Europe.
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Marc Clifton wrote:
CableX1 wrote:
Can anyone out there speak of their experiences as a programmer, either at a 9-5 kind of job or as a freelancer?
Sure. 9-5: Cons: Ridiculous meetings, lots of interruptions, commuting, cubicles, pigeon holing, office politics Pros: Peers, camaraderie, social contact Freelancing: Cons: Often solo, income great one week, 0 the next, more difficult to find contract work, often cleaning up someone else's mess, possible longer commutes Pros: Often solo, income can be great, work is usually more challenging and interesting, contact is more often with the real decision makers, less office politics, much fewer meetings, sometimes remote
Methinks you forgot to mention: 9 - 5: You work 9 - 5, then get to go home and not work, and even after a bad day by 7pm you're doing your own thing because nothing matters till 09:00 the next day. Freelancing: Sometimes you work 09:00 - 05:00 (yes, 20 hours straight), notice the sun coming up, shower, sleep for a few hours, and then at 09:00 repeat the same again (without even realizing 2 - 4 weekends have come and gone), and sometimes you work 11:00 - 11:23 and then go surfing for 3 days ... In either case above: your mind will will be on it 24/7 - and sometimes that will only start to fade up to a month after the project ends. But then you will know you are a freelancer. (... and being able to switch off at 5PM [and not give a s***] will be the life you dream of.)
Sin tack ear lol Pressing the "Any" key may be continuate
Robert den Hartog wrote:
In either case above: your mind will will be on it 24/7 - and sometimes that will only start to fade up to a month after the project ends. But then you will know you are a freelancer.
Good point and exactly my experience. Which I actually really don't mind, because even as a 9-5 employee, I experienced that.
Robert den Hartog wrote:
(... and being able to switch off at 5PM [and not give a s***] will be the life you dream of.)
Nope, not built that way. I suppose I could discipline my mind to do that, but it's not my natural state. ;) Marc
Imperative to Functional Programming Succinctly Contributors Wanted for Higher Order Programming Project! Learning to code with python is like learning to swim with those little arm floaties. It gives you undeserved confidence and will eventually drown you. - DangerBunny
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I'm a freelancer, but work is scarce. I don't use the freelancer sites, as way too many projects there for for mobile, and I only did my first Android app last week, and they're a little too impersonal; people don't look at your profile, only your record on the site and rep points. I have now started an intense campaign to convince small and home businesses of the need to be online, and online properly, not just a Facebook page, and definitely not a *@gamil.com address.
Follow my adventures with .NET Core at my new blog, Erisia Information Services.
Yeah, good luck with that Brady (the intense campaign). I'm not so sure the web site is really necessary until the home/small business is actually sustaining itself. I've been in business since 2002, corporation since 2008. My web site is still on my to-do list :). My wife used to run a mail order business. No matter how much we advertised the site, and we spent a lot of money, lots of cross indexes, etc. People just kept going to Amazon. Eventually we were assimilated by the Borg. "As a beginner programmer, no, not feasible (except for, well, that's another story.) To be a freelance programmer, you need experience, an established client base and most importantly, an established network of friends, coworkers, recruiters, and clients that will recommend you to others." I'll let the OP correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the term "freelance" is the wrong word, maybe it's a location thing. When I hear freelance, I think of the web sites where people go to find someone for a small job. Looking at what the rates are, I just pass, not worth my time. In my world, I think "contract" - as in no employee relationship with the company. This has its up and downsides. I absolutely love it - I can make decisions that are completely sensible - if I need a new laptop or some other piece of hardware, it's a bureaucracy of one. The downside is that your boss is a money grubbing SOB that hates to let you take vacations because you stop billing :). Another plus, thought process toward money. Before I started working for myself, the family conversation for a new car would start with, "Well, I suppose I'll get a raise this year of 3%, and if we can pay off this and that..." Now, I think completely differently. If I want a new car, say that shiny Lexus flirting with me, I think about picking up some extra work. For me, it's freeing. I would point out that I absolutely love engineering, coding, systems design and embedded stuff. It's really not a job for me. And yes, this annoys the hell out of my wife, but she's okay with the work as long as I get paid. When I was an employee, if I worked extra (it happens), she became a badger. If I worked weekends, I met the wolverine. As for the quote above, the key is the network. You have to have some history to prove at least some skill in the art. You want to start asking people you know if they have any programs or applications they need written. Express some interest in trying to solve a problem. Be prepared to work *hard*. My ten cents
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Yeah, good luck with that Brady (the intense campaign). I'm not so sure the web site is really necessary until the home/small business is actually sustaining itself. I've been in business since 2002, corporation since 2008. My web site is still on my to-do list :). My wife used to run a mail order business. No matter how much we advertised the site, and we spent a lot of money, lots of cross indexes, etc. People just kept going to Amazon. Eventually we were assimilated by the Borg. "As a beginner programmer, no, not feasible (except for, well, that's another story.) To be a freelance programmer, you need experience, an established client base and most importantly, an established network of friends, coworkers, recruiters, and clients that will recommend you to others." I'll let the OP correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the term "freelance" is the wrong word, maybe it's a location thing. When I hear freelance, I think of the web sites where people go to find someone for a small job. Looking at what the rates are, I just pass, not worth my time. In my world, I think "contract" - as in no employee relationship with the company. This has its up and downsides. I absolutely love it - I can make decisions that are completely sensible - if I need a new laptop or some other piece of hardware, it's a bureaucracy of one. The downside is that your boss is a money grubbing SOB that hates to let you take vacations because you stop billing :). Another plus, thought process toward money. Before I started working for myself, the family conversation for a new car would start with, "Well, I suppose I'll get a raise this year of 3%, and if we can pay off this and that..." Now, I think completely differently. If I want a new car, say that shiny Lexus flirting with me, I think about picking up some extra work. For me, it's freeing. I would point out that I absolutely love engineering, coding, systems design and embedded stuff. It's really not a job for me. And yes, this annoys the hell out of my wife, but she's okay with the work as long as I get paid. When I was an employee, if I worked extra (it happens), she became a badger. If I worked weekends, I met the wolverine. As for the quote above, the key is the network. You have to have some history to prove at least some skill in the art. You want to start asking people you know if they have any programs or applications they need written. Express some interest in trying to solve a problem. Be prepared to work *hard*. My ten cents
The "online campaign" needn't include a website, but I can't get someone up on shared hosting WordPress, i.e. customisation vs. wordpress.com, for around $2.50/pm. I'm also aiming at lesliescatering@gmail.com addresses on business cards and adverts. It's just not as professional as info@lesliescatering.co.za. This would cost a small setup fee and under $10 per year. As for freelancing, I have also always depended on a network, and the odd random query on Twitter, where I have a great deal of followers based on my technical tweets, and my profile clearly states that I'm a freelancer.
Follow my adventures with .NET Core at my new blog, Erisia Information Services.
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What band?
Peter Wasser "The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell
