Some Oracle praise?
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Jörgen Andersson wrote:
Ever wondered why you get the query time in seconds in SSMS and in ms from Oracle?
I never got a timeout in Oracle and plenty in SQL Server... :sigh: I SHOULD mention that I haven't worked with Oracle like I have with SQL Server (few months development in Oracle vs. years of development and production in SQL Server).
Jörgen Andersson wrote:
I'm not, I'm both a backend developer and database developer. No admin in my title to be found.
Still, your profile says "Database developer" rather than "Software developer" ;)
Jörgen Andersson wrote:
People don't understand what's going on in the databases
Very true, although my experience is that people don't know what's going on inside C# (or any technology for that matter) as well. Most people are missing theoretical knowledge because that's just not interesting, we're practical and need results :sigh: Just recently a coworker complained that a
SELECT TOP 10 * FROM SomeViewwas very slow so we should move the select statement from the view to an SP and pass in the TOP 10 as parameter to that SP. Yes, because that's certainly going to make it a lot faster... :~ (his idea was actually that the entire view was selected (and the view didn't have a top 10) and that the top 10 was applied after that).Jörgen Andersson wrote:
That's also why we're seeing these reactionist NOSQL databases which is really bringing us back to the sixties.
I have to disagree there! I'm no NoSQL expert, but I really think NoSQL databases solve actual problems and can be successfully leveraged to create highly performant systems where traditional relational databases would fail miserably. Of course you still have to know what you're actually doing.
Jörgen Andersson wrote:
that's probably why you thought you can only have one return set from PL-SQL
Nope, I actually want to see exactly this[^] in SQL Developer, but it's impossible :)
Sander Rossel wrote:
I never got a timeout in Oracle and plenty in SQL Server.
Probably a setting though.
Sander Rossel wrote:
his idea was actually that the entire view was selected (and the view didn't have a top 10) and that the top 10 was applied after that)
He might be right you know, check the plan. That's also why you should avoid views with joins as the plague! I never use views for anything but restricting access or prefiltering tables.
Wrong is evil and must be defeated. - Jeff Ello
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Sander Rossel wrote:
I've heard "Oracle has packages[^]", but I fail to see what's so great about that.
Think of them as namespaces, that usually helps. And complaining about the existence of access modifiers is just silly, how do you know it's only going to be your own software in the database. Why do you think there are access modifiers in DotNet?
Sander Rossel wrote:
Next to that Oracle doesn't support booleans/bits,
The bit IS a numeric type. :doh:
Sander Rossel wrote:
Good luck with the documentation too, not nearly as comprehensive as SQL Server.
Unless there's some documentation outside of MSDN and Technet that I haven't found, that is simply not true.
Sander Rossel wrote:
The only plausible thing I've heard so far is that Oracle is faster because it locks at cell level while SQL Server locks at row level and often escalates to locking an entire page (and and I've heard an Oracle user say SQL Server always locks entire pages).
There is no such thing as a page lock in Oracle. Oracle has row-level locks and table-level locks.
Sander Rossel wrote:
But honestly, after hearing about how powerful Oracle is supposed to be I'm REALLY VERY disappointed now that I actually have to work with it.
Actually, it depends on what you're doing, OLTP -> Oracle but when doing OLAP I'd say SQL Server has the upper hand. But that would also be to simplified. It really depends.
Sander Rossel wrote:
Oracle doesn't even handle CASING PROPERLY
So it's not case sensitive, but that's something you should be used to from VB.
Wrong is evil and must be defeated. - Jeff Ello
Jörgen Andersson wrote:
complaining about the existence of access modifiers is just silly
I just don't think they're necessary in the database. And that a header file is the most obnoxious way to support it :laugh: When I first started using Oracle I've searched for a good hour trying to find some weird error, then found out I updated my function declaration in the body, but not the header... :doh:
Jörgen Andersson wrote:
The bit IS a numeric type.
Yes, but one that supports only two values and is correctly converted to bool in C# (and somewhat awkwardly in SSMS).
Jörgen Andersson wrote:
Unless there's some documentation outside of MSDN and Technet that I haven't found, that is simply not true.
Maybe I just don't know where to look :laugh: I keep ending up on oracle.com, but so far I haven't been able to find what I'm looking for (then again, searching for table variables in Oracle isn't going to give you what you're looking for).
Jörgen Andersson wrote:
So it's not case sensitive, but that's something you should be used to from VB.
At least VB doesn't convert EVERYTHING TO UPPER CASE for me :rolleyes: The casing is the least of my problems though. I just wonder why they can't simply support RegularCasing in 2016.
Read my (free) ebook Object-Oriented Programming in C# Succinctly. Visit my blog at Sander's bits - Writing the code you need. Or read my articles here on CodeProject.
Simplicity is prerequisite for reliability. — Edsger W. Dijkstra
Regards, Sander
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Sander Rossel wrote:
I never got a timeout in Oracle and plenty in SQL Server.
Probably a setting though.
Sander Rossel wrote:
his idea was actually that the entire view was selected (and the view didn't have a top 10) and that the top 10 was applied after that)
He might be right you know, check the plan. That's also why you should avoid views with joins as the plague! I never use views for anything but restricting access or prefiltering tables.
Wrong is evil and must be defeated. - Jeff Ello
Jörgen Andersson wrote:
He might be right you know, check the plan.
HE MIGHT be right that an SP would be faster, but not because the TOP 10 is applied after selecting everything from a view :rolleyes: I did check the plan and it was really pretty hopeless. Basically the view was this: SELECT SomeFields FROM BigTable WHERE ... UNION SELECT SomeOtherFields FROM BigTable WHERE ... Now to get that to work we probably DO need an SP because to get the top 10 the selects on both sides of the union needed to be completely evaluated, then sorted, and then top 10'd. I wouldn't really know how to optimize that in a view. It's probably faster to take both top 10's, union and sort those and take another top 10 :)
Read my (free) ebook Object-Oriented Programming in C# Succinctly. Visit my blog at Sander's bits - Writing the code you need. Or read my articles here on CodeProject.
Simplicity is prerequisite for reliability. — Edsger W. Dijkstra
Regards, Sander
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Jörgen Andersson wrote:
He might be right you know, check the plan.
HE MIGHT be right that an SP would be faster, but not because the TOP 10 is applied after selecting everything from a view :rolleyes: I did check the plan and it was really pretty hopeless. Basically the view was this: SELECT SomeFields FROM BigTable WHERE ... UNION SELECT SomeOtherFields FROM BigTable WHERE ... Now to get that to work we probably DO need an SP because to get the top 10 the selects on both sides of the union needed to be completely evaluated, then sorted, and then top 10'd. I wouldn't really know how to optimize that in a view. It's probably faster to take both top 10's, union and sort those and take another top 10 :)
Read my (free) ebook Object-Oriented Programming in C# Succinctly. Visit my blog at Sander's bits - Writing the code you need. Or read my articles here on CodeProject.
Simplicity is prerequisite for reliability. — Edsger W. Dijkstra
Regards, Sander
Sander Rossel wrote:
, but not because the TOP 10 is applied after selecting everything from a view
Sander Rossel wrote:
because to get the top 10 the selects on both sides of the union needed to be completely evaluated, then sorted, and then top 10'd.
That's a bit contradicting you know. :)
Sander Rossel wrote:
It's probably faster to take both top 10's, union and sort those and take another top 10
That's it. And that's exactly why I avoid views. You're forgetting what's happening underneath.
Wrong is evil and must be defeated. - Jeff Ello
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Do people here actually like the Oracle database? Especially when compared to SQL Server. It seems everything I did so easily in SQL Server seems to be difficult or even impossible in Oracle. So far I like the for loops and the some_table.some_column%type type declarations. I'm not looking for Oracle hate or a religious war. I really just want to know what's so great about Oracle so I can enjoy it too (so far it's been mostly frustration).
Read my (free) ebook Object-Oriented Programming in C# Succinctly. Visit my blog at Sander's bits - Writing the code you need. Or read my articles here on CodeProject.
Simplicity is prerequisite for reliability. — Edsger W. Dijkstra
Regards, Sander
I do see a number of benefits to Oracle. It is really good at crunching really huge volumes. It commands extraordinary rates for consultants It takes a DBA to maintain it I think it requires a larger hardware footprint. It is an absolute fucking pain in the arse to develop against.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity RAH
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Do people here actually like the Oracle database? Especially when compared to SQL Server. It seems everything I did so easily in SQL Server seems to be difficult or even impossible in Oracle. So far I like the for loops and the some_table.some_column%type type declarations. I'm not looking for Oracle hate or a religious war. I really just want to know what's so great about Oracle so I can enjoy it too (so far it's been mostly frustration).
Read my (free) ebook Object-Oriented Programming in C# Succinctly. Visit my blog at Sander's bits - Writing the code you need. Or read my articles here on CodeProject.
Simplicity is prerequisite for reliability. — Edsger W. Dijkstra
Regards, Sander
I've worked on a project which used both Oracle and SQL Server, the latter was easy and the former lost me whole weekends trying to get the right DB/Driver combinations. Objectively both have their strong points. Oracle is a very powerful database system whilst SQL Server is more flexible, easier and so _much_ cheaper. If I was to start a new project tomorrow and had to make the decision I'd choose SQL Server, but I'd go to another level of ease and just use Azure SQL because, you know, geo-replication in a few clicks, huge resiliency and easy scale.
Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines
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I've worked on a project which used both Oracle and SQL Server, the latter was easy and the former lost me whole weekends trying to get the right DB/Driver combinations. Objectively both have their strong points. Oracle is a very powerful database system whilst SQL Server is more flexible, easier and so _much_ cheaper. If I was to start a new project tomorrow and had to make the decision I'd choose SQL Server, but I'd go to another level of ease and just use Azure SQL because, you know, geo-replication in a few clicks, huge resiliency and easy scale.
Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines
dazfuller wrote:
and the former lost me whole weekends trying to get the right DB/Driver combinations.
I had some 32/64 bits problem. Basically, because I installed a 64 bits client another 32 bits client refused to work :wtf:
dazfuller wrote:
I'd go to another level of ease and just use Azure SQL
Oracle in the cloud? Now you have two problems ;p
Read my (free) ebook Object-Oriented Programming in C# Succinctly. Visit my blog at Sander's bits - Writing the code you need. Or read my articles here on CodeProject.
Simplicity is prerequisite for reliability. — Edsger W. Dijkstra
Regards, Sander
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I do see a number of benefits to Oracle. It is really good at crunching really huge volumes. It commands extraordinary rates for consultants It takes a DBA to maintain it I think it requires a larger hardware footprint. It is an absolute fucking pain in the arse to develop against.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity RAH
Mycroft Holmes wrote:
It is really good at crunching really huge volumes.
And crunching your bank account.
Mycroft Holmes wrote:
It commands extraordinary rates for consultants
From your bank account.
Mycroft Holmes wrote:
It takes a DBA to maintain it
Who also won't stop to pillage your bank account.
Mycroft Holmes wrote:
I think it requires a larger hardware footprint.
I'm broke and can't pay for better hardware :laugh:
Read my (free) ebook Object-Oriented Programming in C# Succinctly. Visit my blog at Sander's bits - Writing the code you need. Or read my articles here on CodeProject.
Simplicity is prerequisite for reliability. — Edsger W. Dijkstra
Regards, Sander
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It is maybe the order I learned things, but I do not find Oracle that difficult (my first was DB2 on mainframe), but it seems to be less advanced than MSSQL these days, so can't see any reason to bother with in the first place (it even seems to me that most free RDBMS offer more than Oracle for some problems)... So. No good words for Oracle...
Skipper: We'll fix it. Alex: Fix it? How you gonna fix this? Skipper: Grit, spit and a whole lotta duct tape.
Kornfeld Eliyahu Peter wrote:
So. No good words for Oracle...
It's pretty hard to get some praise for Oracle it seems... :sigh:
Read my (free) ebook Object-Oriented Programming in C# Succinctly. Visit my blog at Sander's bits - Writing the code you need. Or read my articles here on CodeProject.
Simplicity is prerequisite for reliability. — Edsger W. Dijkstra
Regards, Sander
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Sander Rossel wrote:
I really just want to know what's so great about Oracle
Well, it's got a cooler name...
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
The price is higher?
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Sander Rossel wrote:
, but not because the TOP 10 is applied after selecting everything from a view
Sander Rossel wrote:
because to get the top 10 the selects on both sides of the union needed to be completely evaluated, then sorted, and then top 10'd.
That's a bit contradicting you know. :)
Sander Rossel wrote:
It's probably faster to take both top 10's, union and sort those and take another top 10
That's it. And that's exactly why I avoid views. You're forgetting what's happening underneath.
Wrong is evil and must be defeated. - Jeff Ello
Jörgen Andersson wrote:
That's a bit contradicting you know. :)
You can't say "a TOP X is applied after selecting everything from a view" for views in general. It's true for this particular view, but you only know that after looking at the view. Besides, the WHERE clause was still applied even before "selecting everything" :)
Read my (free) ebook Object-Oriented Programming in C# Succinctly. Visit my blog at Sander's bits - Writing the code you need. Or read my articles here on CodeProject.
Simplicity is prerequisite for reliability. — Edsger W. Dijkstra
Regards, Sander
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dazfuller wrote:
and the former lost me whole weekends trying to get the right DB/Driver combinations.
I had some 32/64 bits problem. Basically, because I installed a 64 bits client another 32 bits client refused to work :wtf:
dazfuller wrote:
I'd go to another level of ease and just use Azure SQL
Oracle in the cloud? Now you have two problems ;p
Read my (free) ebook Object-Oriented Programming in C# Succinctly. Visit my blog at Sander's bits - Writing the code you need. Or read my articles here on CodeProject.
Simplicity is prerequisite for reliability. — Edsger W. Dijkstra
Regards, Sander
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Jörgen Andersson wrote:
That's a bit contradicting you know. :)
You can't say "a TOP X is applied after selecting everything from a view" for views in general. It's true for this particular view, but you only know that after looking at the view. Besides, the WHERE clause was still applied even before "selecting everything" :)
Read my (free) ebook Object-Oriented Programming in C# Succinctly. Visit my blog at Sander's bits - Writing the code you need. Or read my articles here on CodeProject.
Simplicity is prerequisite for reliability. — Edsger W. Dijkstra
Regards, Sander
It doesn't have anything to do with the view, it's because the TOP is the last thing to happen in the logical order of execution.
Wrong is evil and must be defeated. - Jeff Ello
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Do people here actually like the Oracle database? Especially when compared to SQL Server. It seems everything I did so easily in SQL Server seems to be difficult or even impossible in Oracle. So far I like the for loops and the some_table.some_column%type type declarations. I'm not looking for Oracle hate or a religious war. I really just want to know what's so great about Oracle so I can enjoy it too (so far it's been mostly frustration).
Read my (free) ebook Object-Oriented Programming in C# Succinctly. Visit my blog at Sander's bits - Writing the code you need. Or read my articles here on CodeProject.
Simplicity is prerequisite for reliability. — Edsger W. Dijkstra
Regards, Sander
Take the time to learn Oracle properly and you'll be amazed by just how versatile it is. I've been going back and fourth between Oracle and SQL Server DBs (as well as the new "free" spin-offs) for several years now in a number of different environments, sure each have their merits but if I had to pick one it would be Oracle every day of the week. Now I'm speaking purely from a DB development standpoint, Oracle is much faster, easily scalable and has far more practical, and TBH powerful, functions and program-ability features than any other DB I've come across so far. Yes I'm talking RDBMS. It's performance tuning capabilities are phenomenal. But again I stress, you need to take the time to learn it properly, those people who are "SQL experts" will always complain about how Oracle is so unnecessarily complex blah blah blah, it's because it was never designed for someone with no development experience to write basic reports on.
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Do people here actually like the Oracle database? Especially when compared to SQL Server. It seems everything I did so easily in SQL Server seems to be difficult or even impossible in Oracle. So far I like the for loops and the some_table.some_column%type type declarations. I'm not looking for Oracle hate or a religious war. I really just want to know what's so great about Oracle so I can enjoy it too (so far it's been mostly frustration).
Read my (free) ebook Object-Oriented Programming in C# Succinctly. Visit my blog at Sander's bits - Writing the code you need. Or read my articles here on CodeProject.
Simplicity is prerequisite for reliability. — Edsger W. Dijkstra
Regards, Sander
We were forced to Upgrade from MSSQL to Oracle 7 in order to land a BIG contract. During the process, we found MSSQL Allowed Duplicate keys (Identity Column) to exist. It boggled our mind, it caused us to realize we lost data. From that point forward, I fell in love with Oracle. It was way faster, way more stable. And a bit more complicated. I bemoaned the lack of Autoincrement fields and having to write triggers and use sequences, UNTIL I learned to just do it the Oracle way, and everything got easier, and scaled pretty well... I became a bit of an Oracle Bigot for 10+ years. Until they recently started "License Auditing". Now I have no problem paying for the tools we use. But I watched companies have to full license a development oracle machine (outside of production), and a hot backup server (they want the DB shut off until failover, or pay). For a small DB, you can use the free XE version which is good. But go beyond that and the costs stack up for smaller companies. Friends at Siemens said they will NEVER start a new Oracle Project because of the fines they paid. They will eventually phase most of it out. I am of a similar mindset. I have no interest, after 2 decades of Oracle Specialty of starting a new Oracle Project. MSSQL has gotten a lot better (transactions still grind me, reads being blocked by a write, 2 people can't update master-detail tables at the same time without lock issues)... But I can't justify Extortion...
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Do people here actually like the Oracle database? Especially when compared to SQL Server. It seems everything I did so easily in SQL Server seems to be difficult or even impossible in Oracle. So far I like the for loops and the some_table.some_column%type type declarations. I'm not looking for Oracle hate or a religious war. I really just want to know what's so great about Oracle so I can enjoy it too (so far it's been mostly frustration).
Read my (free) ebook Object-Oriented Programming in C# Succinctly. Visit my blog at Sander's bits - Writing the code you need. Or read my articles here on CodeProject.
Simplicity is prerequisite for reliability. — Edsger W. Dijkstra
Regards, Sander
Oracle is an excellent database system but it is hardly for the "faint of heart". It is in many respects overly complex and learning to use it efficiently can be a hurdle. However, Oracle was also not designed to be used at the departmental level of application development. It is for all intents and purposes a database designed for enormous transaction processing, which it does quite well. It is also designed for very heavy database intensive organizations that require speed and the complexities that come with it. Organizations that have been doing well with SQL Server will often find the move to Oracle quite arduous and if the organization is a small or medium sized company they may find the effort not to be worth it. Oracle installations also require experienced DBAs to manage and fine tune it. It is not simply a developer's database. If you need the capabilities that Oracle provides, the database cannot be beat. However, if you are looking to simply upgrade from a good SQL Server implementation the costs will most likely not be justified. For the majority of applications you will develop you will most likely not need the power of Oracle unless of course you are working in such an organization that does.
Steve Naidamast Sr. Software Engineer Black Falcon Software, Inc. blackfalconsoftware@outlook.com
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We were forced to Upgrade from MSSQL to Oracle 7 in order to land a BIG contract. During the process, we found MSSQL Allowed Duplicate keys (Identity Column) to exist. It boggled our mind, it caused us to realize we lost data. From that point forward, I fell in love with Oracle. It was way faster, way more stable. And a bit more complicated. I bemoaned the lack of Autoincrement fields and having to write triggers and use sequences, UNTIL I learned to just do it the Oracle way, and everything got easier, and scaled pretty well... I became a bit of an Oracle Bigot for 10+ years. Until they recently started "License Auditing". Now I have no problem paying for the tools we use. But I watched companies have to full license a development oracle machine (outside of production), and a hot backup server (they want the DB shut off until failover, or pay). For a small DB, you can use the free XE version which is good. But go beyond that and the costs stack up for smaller companies. Friends at Siemens said they will NEVER start a new Oracle Project because of the fines they paid. They will eventually phase most of it out. I am of a similar mindset. I have no interest, after 2 decades of Oracle Specialty of starting a new Oracle Project. MSSQL has gotten a lot better (transactions still grind me, reads being blocked by a write, 2 people can't update master-detail tables at the same time without lock issues)... But I can't justify Extortion...
Kirk 10389821 wrote:
we found MSSQL Allowed Duplicate keys (Identity Column) to exist
I'm not sure what version that was, but that's certainly not possible now :~ SQL Server does allow you to not specify a key though, in which case it IS possible to insert duplicate rows (I really can't recommend it).
Kirk 10389821 wrote:
But I can't justify Extortion...
In a time that lots of databases are free/open-source :) What always struck me with Oracle is that they're arrogant. They're the most expensive. Their security chief wrote that letter[^] basically saying "we know everything, you know nothing". Then there's the whole Oracle vs. Google lawsuit about Java while they're letting the Java EE platform die a slow death... Maybe they're not worse than Google, Microsoft, Facebook, etc., but it sure seems that way (with Apple being a close 2nd) :)
Read my (free) ebook Object-Oriented Programming in C# Succinctly. Visit my blog at Sander's bits - Writing the code you need. Or read my articles here on CodeProject.
Simplicity is prerequisite for reliability. — Edsger W. Dijkstra
Regards, Sander
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Do people here actually like the Oracle database? Especially when compared to SQL Server. It seems everything I did so easily in SQL Server seems to be difficult or even impossible in Oracle. So far I like the for loops and the some_table.some_column%type type declarations. I'm not looking for Oracle hate or a religious war. I really just want to know what's so great about Oracle so I can enjoy it too (so far it's been mostly frustration).
Read my (free) ebook Object-Oriented Programming in C# Succinctly. Visit my blog at Sander's bits - Writing the code you need. Or read my articles here on CodeProject.
Simplicity is prerequisite for reliability. — Edsger W. Dijkstra
Regards, Sander
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Did you try CONNECT BY queries in Oracle? So much cooler than the equivalent way of doing it in SQL Server with Common Table Expressions.
Yes I did! Pretty cool, but it requires a shift in thinking :)
Read my (free) ebook Object-Oriented Programming in C# Succinctly. Visit my blog at Sander's bits - Writing the code you need. Or read my articles here on CodeProject.
Simplicity is prerequisite for reliability. — Edsger W. Dijkstra
Regards, Sander
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Do people here actually like the Oracle database? Especially when compared to SQL Server. It seems everything I did so easily in SQL Server seems to be difficult or even impossible in Oracle. So far I like the for loops and the some_table.some_column%type type declarations. I'm not looking for Oracle hate or a religious war. I really just want to know what's so great about Oracle so I can enjoy it too (so far it's been mostly frustration).
Read my (free) ebook Object-Oriented Programming in C# Succinctly. Visit my blog at Sander's bits - Writing the code you need. Or read my articles here on CodeProject.
Simplicity is prerequisite for reliability. — Edsger W. Dijkstra
Regards, Sander
