Further Thoughts on the "End of Days"
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W∴ Balboos wrote:
we do make this deadline. Now we've set a precdedent that the seriously understaffed development group can be intimidated into results
If you can do that you deserve to be sacked. Sorry, it is your DUTY to the company to produce a quality product as fast as possible.
Another post of yours that deserves a rude comment.
Munchies_Matt wrote:
If you can do that you deserve to be sacked.
Me and this other developer operate as a gestalt - we rebuilt half the companies software infrastructure in just a few years - almost every item extensible without limitations and fiercely reliable. But - we can only hope you find yourself in a position where you're asked to do a job that requires half a dozen developers and you do it with one colleague (or in your case, you'd like work alone as who'd want to be stuck there). A quality product - as fast as possible - WELL - which one is it to be? If you want speed, hire an adequate headcount of qualified staff. Your comment so much reminds me of Marie Antoinette's solution of what the poor should eat if they have no bread. I understand the people's response.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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In an earlier post The Lounge[^] I noted that a useful member of IT staff was abruptly terminated and, as of yesterday, they grim reaper harvested another. Meanwhile, some thoughts: IT, per say, was put on notice by the New Kids on the Block that are reorganizing the company, that if a certain program isn't completed by a (demanded) hard date than we're all history. Personally, I think they were simply setting up a pretext, but let's assume not. OK - so these guys come around (and they're IT-clueless, unlike the predecessor), demand a hard deadline and make threats. Two scenario's open up. 1 - we don't make their deadline - and we're replaced by "smarter younger programmers" 2 - we do make this deadline. Now we've set a precdedent that the seriously understaffed development group can be intimidated into results. So - now I can look forward to a slightly early retirement or working continuously under the gun. That does not go well with my personality in the least. The other 'real' developer is quite good and wouldn't bat an eye at seeking employment elsewhere. About half the company's operations are running on the stuff we built. We'll both go on making the best stuff we can while we can. But - thrown out to you lot - comments?
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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Another post of yours that deserves a rude comment.
Munchies_Matt wrote:
If you can do that you deserve to be sacked.
Me and this other developer operate as a gestalt - we rebuilt half the companies software infrastructure in just a few years - almost every item extensible without limitations and fiercely reliable. But - we can only hope you find yourself in a position where you're asked to do a job that requires half a dozen developers and you do it with one colleague (or in your case, you'd like work alone as who'd want to be stuck there). A quality product - as fast as possible - WELL - which one is it to be? If you want speed, hire an adequate headcount of qualified staff. Your comment so much reminds me of Marie Antoinette's solution of what the poor should eat if they have no bread. I understand the people's response.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
W∴ Balboos wrote:
Another post of yours that deserves a rude comment.
Why? I think you may be taking it too personal. His point is, if I may, that if you don't do your best work you should be fired. That's it. Wouldn't you agree that if you don't do your best work you could/should be fired?
W∴ Balboos wrote:
A quality product - as fast as possible - WELL - which one is it to be?
They are not mutually exclusive. As fast as possible could mean 2 weeks or could mean 6 years. Again, all's he's saying, I believe, is to do a good job everyday. Period.
There are two kinds of people in the world: those who can extrapolate from incomplete data. There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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Alas, I'm rather old by developers' standards - old enough to be two. One of my pet lines is to get a job as a programmer you need to be 25 years old and have 30 years experience. Maybe some local contract work? Fortunately - I put in the preparation and am essentially immune from any real damage. Time to get back into some serious photography? (!) The thing is, I love coding - but, then again, I learned to do it and did it years before someone would pay me.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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Munchies_Matt wrote:
it is your DUTY to the company to produce a quality product as fast as possible.
Yes, but within reason.
There are two kinds of people in the world: those who can extrapolate from incomplete data. There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
He is paid to do a job, do it.
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Any chance of quitting before the deadline? I did something similar last year to get out of a place where staying was not a good idea anymore. We secretly all looked for new jobs, helped each other as good as possible and all got out, except one. Alone the faces of the bosses you get to see when most of the team quit within a few days are definitely priceless. If it's so easy, then do it yourself, d*ckheads.
The language is JavaScript. that of Mordor, which I will not utter here
This is Javascript. If you put big wheels and a racing stripe on a golf cart, it's still a fucking golf cart.
"I don't know, extraterrestrial?" "You mean like from space?" "No, from Canada." If software development were a circus, we would all be the clowns.Resignation would mean I don't get to collect unemployment compensation - not a fortune - something over $400/wk. Buys a lot of pizza and single-malt. If either of us two multi-project developer's is gone, the others' work would be impacted. His leaving would overload me with work; my leaving would end development of the infrastructure. If things do collapse and they need us back . . . it will be costly.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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In an earlier post The Lounge[^] I noted that a useful member of IT staff was abruptly terminated and, as of yesterday, they grim reaper harvested another. Meanwhile, some thoughts: IT, per say, was put on notice by the New Kids on the Block that are reorganizing the company, that if a certain program isn't completed by a (demanded) hard date than we're all history. Personally, I think they were simply setting up a pretext, but let's assume not. OK - so these guys come around (and they're IT-clueless, unlike the predecessor), demand a hard deadline and make threats. Two scenario's open up. 1 - we don't make their deadline - and we're replaced by "smarter younger programmers" 2 - we do make this deadline. Now we've set a precdedent that the seriously understaffed development group can be intimidated into results. So - now I can look forward to a slightly early retirement or working continuously under the gun. That does not go well with my personality in the least. The other 'real' developer is quite good and wouldn't bat an eye at seeking employment elsewhere. About half the company's operations are running on the stuff we built. We'll both go on making the best stuff we can while we can. But - thrown out to you lot - comments?
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
There seem to be a lot of developers that feel everyone is their enemy. Also, several responses have already said to quit. I don't understand either of these mentalities. My philosophy is that I will do my best every day. If that is not good enough, then there are lots of other jobs. But I won't quit or runaway just because someone is putting undue pressure on me. I will communicate with them. Start by trying to communicate with them, or with your manager.
There are two kinds of people in the world: those who can extrapolate from incomplete data. There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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He is paid to do a job, do it.
Munchies_Matt wrote:
He is paid to do a job, do it.
I agree. But if that job turns into "you must work 80 hour weeks" then I have no problem finding a more reasonable job. No good developer, at least in the US, should ever feel like they can't get another job.
There are two kinds of people in the world: those who can extrapolate from incomplete data. There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
-
Another post of yours that deserves a rude comment.
Munchies_Matt wrote:
If you can do that you deserve to be sacked.
Me and this other developer operate as a gestalt - we rebuilt half the companies software infrastructure in just a few years - almost every item extensible without limitations and fiercely reliable. But - we can only hope you find yourself in a position where you're asked to do a job that requires half a dozen developers and you do it with one colleague (or in your case, you'd like work alone as who'd want to be stuck there). A quality product - as fast as possible - WELL - which one is it to be? If you want speed, hire an adequate headcount of qualified staff. Your comment so much reminds me of Marie Antoinette's solution of what the poor should eat if they have no bread. I understand the people's response.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
Hey, you are the one who said you could meet a shortened deadline, not me. I have worked with many inefficient software teams, and its quite staggering how much time they waste instead of just getting the product out.
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Munchies_Matt wrote:
He is paid to do a job, do it.
I agree. But if that job turns into "you must work 80 hour weeks" then I have no problem finding a more reasonable job. No good developer, at least in the US, should ever feel like they can't get another job.
There are two kinds of people in the world: those who can extrapolate from incomplete data. There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
'If' The fact is a lot of software can be produced faster, I have seen gross inefficiences in my career.
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W∴ Balboos wrote:
Another post of yours that deserves a rude comment.
Why? I think you may be taking it too personal. His point is, if I may, that if you don't do your best work you should be fired. That's it. Wouldn't you agree that if you don't do your best work you could/should be fired?
W∴ Balboos wrote:
A quality product - as fast as possible - WELL - which one is it to be?
They are not mutually exclusive. As fast as possible could mean 2 weeks or could mean 6 years. Again, all's he's saying, I believe, is to do a good job everyday. Period.
There are two kinds of people in the world: those who can extrapolate from incomplete data. There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
In a nutshell, we're very understaffed in terms of developers. Of those here, several have a fixed project which they develop/maintain 100% of their time. It really leaves two of us to rebuild - which requires very major integration with, and finally replacement of, legacy applications. Many very old. The amount of work produced in the last few years is several time that produced in the previous ten (as far back as my history goes). The 'new kids' have not only no technical background, but not even rally a good business background. Sometime (like this time), someone gets rapidly put into high management due to - let us just say - connections. Qualifications? Not so much. So - we do make very robust application - in massive amounts - but we're only partially superhuman.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
-
In an earlier post The Lounge[^] I noted that a useful member of IT staff was abruptly terminated and, as of yesterday, they grim reaper harvested another. Meanwhile, some thoughts: IT, per say, was put on notice by the New Kids on the Block that are reorganizing the company, that if a certain program isn't completed by a (demanded) hard date than we're all history. Personally, I think they were simply setting up a pretext, but let's assume not. OK - so these guys come around (and they're IT-clueless, unlike the predecessor), demand a hard deadline and make threats. Two scenario's open up. 1 - we don't make their deadline - and we're replaced by "smarter younger programmers" 2 - we do make this deadline. Now we've set a precdedent that the seriously understaffed development group can be intimidated into results. So - now I can look forward to a slightly early retirement or working continuously under the gun. That does not go well with my personality in the least. The other 'real' developer is quite good and wouldn't bat an eye at seeking employment elsewhere. About half the company's operations are running on the stuff we built. We'll both go on making the best stuff we can while we can. But - thrown out to you lot - comments?
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
There is nothing wrong with a hard deadline, the problem is the threat... Let see from their point of view what will happened if the deadline missed by current team... If they go and put you out, they not only have no product, but there is no promise at all that there will be in the near future... So you maybe loose your job, but they will be in a much worst situation... And nobody to blame in front of the management - after all you are not there anymore... If they do not put you out, in that case the tones will be higher than ever - to gain back reputation, and it will be very uncomfortable to work there... So - instead to work on that project, spend your time on searching new job...
Skipper: We'll fix it. Alex: Fix it? How you gonna fix this? Skipper: Grit, spit and a whole lotta duct tape.
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There seem to be a lot of developers that feel everyone is their enemy. Also, several responses have already said to quit. I don't understand either of these mentalities. My philosophy is that I will do my best every day. If that is not good enough, then there are lots of other jobs. But I won't quit or runaway just because someone is putting undue pressure on me. I will communicate with them. Start by trying to communicate with them, or with your manager.
There are two kinds of people in the world: those who can extrapolate from incomplete data. There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
Here, we agree. We will do the best job we can while we are doing it. Communicate? My 'communication' was my being caught in one of those ambush-captures in a hallway. There was no listening - only demanding. Loyalty to what once was means we will continue to do our best. Also, loyalty to ourselves.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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52 I was when I switched last. 49 before that. Took more than one application but not many. You can do it.
... such stuff as dreams are made on
Fifty when I started here - took "only" three months (which was actually quite good at the time. But that was long enough ago where - as I said, it's a slightly early retirement. And perhaps some small local contracts. I could go on SS immediately if I've a mind to. Luckily - I don't need the company for my benefits. That IS a big deal.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
-
In an earlier post The Lounge[^] I noted that a useful member of IT staff was abruptly terminated and, as of yesterday, they grim reaper harvested another. Meanwhile, some thoughts: IT, per say, was put on notice by the New Kids on the Block that are reorganizing the company, that if a certain program isn't completed by a (demanded) hard date than we're all history. Personally, I think they were simply setting up a pretext, but let's assume not. OK - so these guys come around (and they're IT-clueless, unlike the predecessor), demand a hard deadline and make threats. Two scenario's open up. 1 - we don't make their deadline - and we're replaced by "smarter younger programmers" 2 - we do make this deadline. Now we've set a precdedent that the seriously understaffed development group can be intimidated into results. So - now I can look forward to a slightly early retirement or working continuously under the gun. That does not go well with my personality in the least. The other 'real' developer is quite good and wouldn't bat an eye at seeking employment elsewhere. About half the company's operations are running on the stuff we built. We'll both go on making the best stuff we can while we can. But - thrown out to you lot - comments?
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
Richard Branson has said words to the effect that the customers are not the most important part of a business - the employees are. Look after the employees, and they will look after the customers. If your bosses do not agree with this type of policy, then they are doomed to failure, and your best option would be to abandon ship before it sinks.
Cheers, Mick ------------------------------------------------ It doesn't matter how often or hard you fall on your arse, eventually you'll roll over and land on your feet.
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Fifty when I started here - took "only" three months (which was actually quite good at the time. But that was long enough ago where - as I said, it's a slightly early retirement. And perhaps some small local contracts. I could go on SS immediately if I've a mind to. Luckily - I don't need the company for my benefits. That IS a big deal.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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There is nothing wrong with a hard deadline, the problem is the threat... Let see from their point of view what will happened if the deadline missed by current team... If they go and put you out, they not only have no product, but there is no promise at all that there will be in the near future... So you maybe loose your job, but they will be in a much worst situation... And nobody to blame in front of the management - after all you are not there anymore... If they do not put you out, in that case the tones will be higher than ever - to gain back reputation, and it will be very uncomfortable to work there... So - instead to work on that project, spend your time on searching new job...
Skipper: We'll fix it. Alex: Fix it? How you gonna fix this? Skipper: Grit, spit and a whole lotta duct tape.
You have some good insights. If they get rid of us, much of the existing infrastructure will continue to run but not grow, and eventually, everything collapses. Essentially, if they bring in a bunch of "smart young programmers" they'll start from scratch. Ironically, they'll probably hire more than we currently have (obvious implications here for a rational solution that will not be sought by management) Management? They'll continue to blame us while they can. Until the new team has its problems. Amazingly, the company has experience with many outside vendors. The results have almost invariably sucked. Alas, aside from contract work or other self employment, I'm way too grey for the IT industries' taste (at least in US).
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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Richard Branson has said words to the effect that the customers are not the most important part of a business - the employees are. Look after the employees, and they will look after the customers. If your bosses do not agree with this type of policy, then they are doomed to failure, and your best option would be to abandon ship before it sinks.
Cheers, Mick ------------------------------------------------ It doesn't matter how often or hard you fall on your arse, eventually you'll roll over and land on your feet.
That description fits this place in former times (and that was only a very short time ago). Another aspect: even if I'm gone - there's a lot of nice people working here and if there's a collapse they're in trouble. For many, this is their sole source of income (not unusual). There's always a chance they may come to their senses before they do irreparable damage. I have my survival gear but I do worry about those left behind.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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Resignation would mean I don't get to collect unemployment compensation - not a fortune - something over $400/wk. Buys a lot of pizza and single-malt. If either of us two multi-project developer's is gone, the others' work would be impacted. His leaving would overload me with work; my leaving would end development of the infrastructure. If things do collapse and they need us back . . . it will be costly.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
It's never easy. When someone comes with 'or else', this may be your only option in the long run. Otherwise it will be 'or else' every day from then on, just as you wrote. For similar reasons they can't take back their 'or else' anymore. Try to find the best way out for you, but don't wait too long. If they must do their 'or else' or if too many leave before that, things will get nasty for those that remain. That can quickly turn into a self fulfilling prophecy.
The language is JavaScript. that of Mordor, which I will not utter here
This is Javascript. If you put big wheels and a racing stripe on a golf cart, it's still a fucking golf cart.
"I don't know, extraterrestrial?" "You mean like from space?" "No, from Canada." If software development were a circus, we would all be the clowns. -
'If' The fact is a lot of software can be produced faster, I have seen gross inefficiences in my career.
Munchies_Matt wrote:
I have seen gross inefficiences in my career.
True in any industry and very true in government.
There are two kinds of people in the world: those who can extrapolate from incomplete data. There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
