Further Thoughts on the "End of Days"
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Munchies_Matt wrote:
He is paid to do a job, do it.
I agree. But if that job turns into "you must work 80 hour weeks" then I have no problem finding a more reasonable job. No good developer, at least in the US, should ever feel like they can't get another job.
There are two kinds of people in the world: those who can extrapolate from incomplete data. There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
'If' The fact is a lot of software can be produced faster, I have seen gross inefficiences in my career.
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W∴ Balboos wrote:
Another post of yours that deserves a rude comment.
Why? I think you may be taking it too personal. His point is, if I may, that if you don't do your best work you should be fired. That's it. Wouldn't you agree that if you don't do your best work you could/should be fired?
W∴ Balboos wrote:
A quality product - as fast as possible - WELL - which one is it to be?
They are not mutually exclusive. As fast as possible could mean 2 weeks or could mean 6 years. Again, all's he's saying, I believe, is to do a good job everyday. Period.
There are two kinds of people in the world: those who can extrapolate from incomplete data. There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
In a nutshell, we're very understaffed in terms of developers. Of those here, several have a fixed project which they develop/maintain 100% of their time. It really leaves two of us to rebuild - which requires very major integration with, and finally replacement of, legacy applications. Many very old. The amount of work produced in the last few years is several time that produced in the previous ten (as far back as my history goes). The 'new kids' have not only no technical background, but not even rally a good business background. Sometime (like this time), someone gets rapidly put into high management due to - let us just say - connections. Qualifications? Not so much. So - we do make very robust application - in massive amounts - but we're only partially superhuman.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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In an earlier post The Lounge[^] I noted that a useful member of IT staff was abruptly terminated and, as of yesterday, they grim reaper harvested another. Meanwhile, some thoughts: IT, per say, was put on notice by the New Kids on the Block that are reorganizing the company, that if a certain program isn't completed by a (demanded) hard date than we're all history. Personally, I think they were simply setting up a pretext, but let's assume not. OK - so these guys come around (and they're IT-clueless, unlike the predecessor), demand a hard deadline and make threats. Two scenario's open up. 1 - we don't make their deadline - and we're replaced by "smarter younger programmers" 2 - we do make this deadline. Now we've set a precdedent that the seriously understaffed development group can be intimidated into results. So - now I can look forward to a slightly early retirement or working continuously under the gun. That does not go well with my personality in the least. The other 'real' developer is quite good and wouldn't bat an eye at seeking employment elsewhere. About half the company's operations are running on the stuff we built. We'll both go on making the best stuff we can while we can. But - thrown out to you lot - comments?
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
There is nothing wrong with a hard deadline, the problem is the threat... Let see from their point of view what will happened if the deadline missed by current team... If they go and put you out, they not only have no product, but there is no promise at all that there will be in the near future... So you maybe loose your job, but they will be in a much worst situation... And nobody to blame in front of the management - after all you are not there anymore... If they do not put you out, in that case the tones will be higher than ever - to gain back reputation, and it will be very uncomfortable to work there... So - instead to work on that project, spend your time on searching new job...
Skipper: We'll fix it. Alex: Fix it? How you gonna fix this? Skipper: Grit, spit and a whole lotta duct tape.
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There seem to be a lot of developers that feel everyone is their enemy. Also, several responses have already said to quit. I don't understand either of these mentalities. My philosophy is that I will do my best every day. If that is not good enough, then there are lots of other jobs. But I won't quit or runaway just because someone is putting undue pressure on me. I will communicate with them. Start by trying to communicate with them, or with your manager.
There are two kinds of people in the world: those who can extrapolate from incomplete data. There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
Here, we agree. We will do the best job we can while we are doing it. Communicate? My 'communication' was my being caught in one of those ambush-captures in a hallway. There was no listening - only demanding. Loyalty to what once was means we will continue to do our best. Also, loyalty to ourselves.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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52 I was when I switched last. 49 before that. Took more than one application but not many. You can do it.
... such stuff as dreams are made on
Fifty when I started here - took "only" three months (which was actually quite good at the time. But that was long enough ago where - as I said, it's a slightly early retirement. And perhaps some small local contracts. I could go on SS immediately if I've a mind to. Luckily - I don't need the company for my benefits. That IS a big deal.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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In an earlier post The Lounge[^] I noted that a useful member of IT staff was abruptly terminated and, as of yesterday, they grim reaper harvested another. Meanwhile, some thoughts: IT, per say, was put on notice by the New Kids on the Block that are reorganizing the company, that if a certain program isn't completed by a (demanded) hard date than we're all history. Personally, I think they were simply setting up a pretext, but let's assume not. OK - so these guys come around (and they're IT-clueless, unlike the predecessor), demand a hard deadline and make threats. Two scenario's open up. 1 - we don't make their deadline - and we're replaced by "smarter younger programmers" 2 - we do make this deadline. Now we've set a precdedent that the seriously understaffed development group can be intimidated into results. So - now I can look forward to a slightly early retirement or working continuously under the gun. That does not go well with my personality in the least. The other 'real' developer is quite good and wouldn't bat an eye at seeking employment elsewhere. About half the company's operations are running on the stuff we built. We'll both go on making the best stuff we can while we can. But - thrown out to you lot - comments?
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
Richard Branson has said words to the effect that the customers are not the most important part of a business - the employees are. Look after the employees, and they will look after the customers. If your bosses do not agree with this type of policy, then they are doomed to failure, and your best option would be to abandon ship before it sinks.
Cheers, Mick ------------------------------------------------ It doesn't matter how often or hard you fall on your arse, eventually you'll roll over and land on your feet.
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Fifty when I started here - took "only" three months (which was actually quite good at the time. But that was long enough ago where - as I said, it's a slightly early retirement. And perhaps some small local contracts. I could go on SS immediately if I've a mind to. Luckily - I don't need the company for my benefits. That IS a big deal.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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There is nothing wrong with a hard deadline, the problem is the threat... Let see from their point of view what will happened if the deadline missed by current team... If they go and put you out, they not only have no product, but there is no promise at all that there will be in the near future... So you maybe loose your job, but they will be in a much worst situation... And nobody to blame in front of the management - after all you are not there anymore... If they do not put you out, in that case the tones will be higher than ever - to gain back reputation, and it will be very uncomfortable to work there... So - instead to work on that project, spend your time on searching new job...
Skipper: We'll fix it. Alex: Fix it? How you gonna fix this? Skipper: Grit, spit and a whole lotta duct tape.
You have some good insights. If they get rid of us, much of the existing infrastructure will continue to run but not grow, and eventually, everything collapses. Essentially, if they bring in a bunch of "smart young programmers" they'll start from scratch. Ironically, they'll probably hire more than we currently have (obvious implications here for a rational solution that will not be sought by management) Management? They'll continue to blame us while they can. Until the new team has its problems. Amazingly, the company has experience with many outside vendors. The results have almost invariably sucked. Alas, aside from contract work or other self employment, I'm way too grey for the IT industries' taste (at least in US).
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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Richard Branson has said words to the effect that the customers are not the most important part of a business - the employees are. Look after the employees, and they will look after the customers. If your bosses do not agree with this type of policy, then they are doomed to failure, and your best option would be to abandon ship before it sinks.
Cheers, Mick ------------------------------------------------ It doesn't matter how often or hard you fall on your arse, eventually you'll roll over and land on your feet.
That description fits this place in former times (and that was only a very short time ago). Another aspect: even if I'm gone - there's a lot of nice people working here and if there's a collapse they're in trouble. For many, this is their sole source of income (not unusual). There's always a chance they may come to their senses before they do irreparable damage. I have my survival gear but I do worry about those left behind.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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Resignation would mean I don't get to collect unemployment compensation - not a fortune - something over $400/wk. Buys a lot of pizza and single-malt. If either of us two multi-project developer's is gone, the others' work would be impacted. His leaving would overload me with work; my leaving would end development of the infrastructure. If things do collapse and they need us back . . . it will be costly.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
It's never easy. When someone comes with 'or else', this may be your only option in the long run. Otherwise it will be 'or else' every day from then on, just as you wrote. For similar reasons they can't take back their 'or else' anymore. Try to find the best way out for you, but don't wait too long. If they must do their 'or else' or if too many leave before that, things will get nasty for those that remain. That can quickly turn into a self fulfilling prophecy.
The language is JavaScript. that of Mordor, which I will not utter here
This is Javascript. If you put big wheels and a racing stripe on a golf cart, it's still a fucking golf cart.
"I don't know, extraterrestrial?" "You mean like from space?" "No, from Canada." If software development were a circus, we would all be the clowns. -
'If' The fact is a lot of software can be produced faster, I have seen gross inefficiences in my career.
Munchies_Matt wrote:
I have seen gross inefficiences in my career.
True in any industry and very true in government.
There are two kinds of people in the world: those who can extrapolate from incomplete data. There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
-
In a nutshell, we're very understaffed in terms of developers. Of those here, several have a fixed project which they develop/maintain 100% of their time. It really leaves two of us to rebuild - which requires very major integration with, and finally replacement of, legacy applications. Many very old. The amount of work produced in the last few years is several time that produced in the previous ten (as far back as my history goes). The 'new kids' have not only no technical background, but not even rally a good business background. Sometime (like this time), someone gets rapidly put into high management due to - let us just say - connections. Qualifications? Not so much. So - we do make very robust application - in massive amounts - but we're only partially superhuman.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
W∴ Balboos wrote:
but we're only partially superhuman.
Exactly. At my last job we had a Project Manager who only knew how to say "It must be done by this date." I would tell her there was no way that was happening. She would repeat, "It has to." I would say it won't. She didn't seem to understand that resources have limits. If you want it done sooner, increase resources and that might do it. The challenge is getting others to understand what an appropriate time frame is. But don't quit over just this, many places will have the same problem.
There are two kinds of people in the world: those who can extrapolate from incomplete data. There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
-
Here, we agree. We will do the best job we can while we are doing it. Communicate? My 'communication' was my being caught in one of those ambush-captures in a hallway. There was no listening - only demanding. Loyalty to what once was means we will continue to do our best. Also, loyalty to ourselves.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
W∴ Balboos wrote:
My 'communication' was my being caught in one of those ambush-captures in a hallway.
What you do here is knee them in the groin and while they are wincing and moaning you have their attention. :-\
There are two kinds of people in the world: those who can extrapolate from incomplete data. There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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W∴ Balboos wrote:
we do make this deadline. Now we've set a precdedent that the seriously understaffed development group can be intimidated into results
If you can do that you deserve to be sacked. Sorry, it is your DUTY to the company to produce a quality product as fast as possible.
You're getting paid to work for 8 hours a day, 5 days a week (assuming a 40 hour contract), in reasonable circumstances. Just because you're getting money doesn't mean you should take everything they throw at you.
Best, Sander arrgh.js - Bringing LINQ to JavaScript SQL Server for C# Developers Succinctly Object-Oriented Programming in C# Succinctly
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You have some good insights. If they get rid of us, much of the existing infrastructure will continue to run but not grow, and eventually, everything collapses. Essentially, if they bring in a bunch of "smart young programmers" they'll start from scratch. Ironically, they'll probably hire more than we currently have (obvious implications here for a rational solution that will not be sought by management) Management? They'll continue to blame us while they can. Until the new team has its problems. Amazingly, the company has experience with many outside vendors. The results have almost invariably sucked. Alas, aside from contract work or other self employment, I'm way too grey for the IT industries' taste (at least in US).
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
Another possibility is they will further 'trim' the department (looks good on the books - reduced 'running costs' - accountants love that), then when the department becomes too small to provide/sustain their next move to 'outsource' it (appears elsewhere in the ledgers, but as 'expenses' are claimable off income - even though more expensive it makes for a 'better' ledger.) As one of the inner core: play your cards right and you could end up doing the same work you do today on contract (also means you can claim your own expenses off your income). I'd suggest have your own terms organised and ready: i.e. where/when you work, what you provide, what they provide, billing/payment terms... Don't forget to charge more: you've now got to cover your own medical, time off/vacation cover (4 weeks vacation = 8% of your income, medical - check cost of insurance plans plus some for typical sick days/doctor visits). In fact be ready to 'suggest' that idea to them should they utter the smallest hints of it; if that's their thinking being on the same page from day zero will keep you in their good books. If yu can get it, it's a good way to move to working for yourself without missing a paycheck.
Sin tack the any key okay
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In an earlier post The Lounge[^] I noted that a useful member of IT staff was abruptly terminated and, as of yesterday, they grim reaper harvested another. Meanwhile, some thoughts: IT, per say, was put on notice by the New Kids on the Block that are reorganizing the company, that if a certain program isn't completed by a (demanded) hard date than we're all history. Personally, I think they were simply setting up a pretext, but let's assume not. OK - so these guys come around (and they're IT-clueless, unlike the predecessor), demand a hard deadline and make threats. Two scenario's open up. 1 - we don't make their deadline - and we're replaced by "smarter younger programmers" 2 - we do make this deadline. Now we've set a precdedent that the seriously understaffed development group can be intimidated into results. So - now I can look forward to a slightly early retirement or working continuously under the gun. That does not go well with my personality in the least. The other 'real' developer is quite good and wouldn't bat an eye at seeking employment elsewhere. About half the company's operations are running on the stuff we built. We'll both go on making the best stuff we can while we can. But - thrown out to you lot - comments?
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
Keep in mind that it's easier to get a job while you have one.
Wrong is evil and must be defeated. - Jeff Ello
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I can do most of (1). More likely than not, they'll discover the extent of the infrastructure I built, and commented though it is, if anything breaks their up to their ankles in sh*t: standing on their heads. However, they gave me a position to begin with, so I have this caveat to your solution: they put food on my table for years. I'm many things (check the soapbox) - but an ingrate is not one of them. The thought of . . . well it crossed my mind but I'll just pack my things and go.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
W∴ Balboos wrote:
However, they gave me a position to begin with
They really didn't. They weren't operating as a charity; they saw something in you where you could provide the services they needed at a rate that was attractive to them.
W∴ Balboos wrote:
have this caveat to your solution: they put food on my table for years.
Again, they didn't. They paid you a rate that you both deemed in a fair range for you to provide them a service that they needed to make a profit. Bottom line. Don't sell yourself short.
This space for rent
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In an earlier post The Lounge[^] I noted that a useful member of IT staff was abruptly terminated and, as of yesterday, they grim reaper harvested another. Meanwhile, some thoughts: IT, per say, was put on notice by the New Kids on the Block that are reorganizing the company, that if a certain program isn't completed by a (demanded) hard date than we're all history. Personally, I think they were simply setting up a pretext, but let's assume not. OK - so these guys come around (and they're IT-clueless, unlike the predecessor), demand a hard deadline and make threats. Two scenario's open up. 1 - we don't make their deadline - and we're replaced by "smarter younger programmers" 2 - we do make this deadline. Now we've set a precdedent that the seriously understaffed development group can be intimidated into results. So - now I can look forward to a slightly early retirement or working continuously under the gun. That does not go well with my personality in the least. The other 'real' developer is quite good and wouldn't bat an eye at seeking employment elsewhere. About half the company's operations are running on the stuff we built. We'll both go on making the best stuff we can while we can. But - thrown out to you lot - comments?
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
What's the new management's response likely to be if they have no IT team left? Hire from scratch or get in a "consultancy" to manage things in the interim? If your systems are critical then the first option will take too long. If they take the second route and choose a large-ish consultancy, you have the possibility of being kicked out, then approaching replacement consultancy with your intimate knowledge of the system. You get re-hired by the consultancy at twice the rate and carry on doing what you always did, the system and company don't implode, and management learn a valuable lesson. To "add value" you can spend between now and d-day removing any comments from the code and deleting all documentation. :laugh: Have done similar (with a variation) in the past. Part of team laid off to off-shore system support; new consultancy totally incompetent and incapable; re-hired as freelancer by end-user company (under a different manager) to "rescue" support of the system. I then charged them a monthly retainer on top of the hours I worked. :cool:
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In an earlier post The Lounge[^] I noted that a useful member of IT staff was abruptly terminated and, as of yesterday, they grim reaper harvested another. Meanwhile, some thoughts: IT, per say, was put on notice by the New Kids on the Block that are reorganizing the company, that if a certain program isn't completed by a (demanded) hard date than we're all history. Personally, I think they were simply setting up a pretext, but let's assume not. OK - so these guys come around (and they're IT-clueless, unlike the predecessor), demand a hard deadline and make threats. Two scenario's open up. 1 - we don't make their deadline - and we're replaced by "smarter younger programmers" 2 - we do make this deadline. Now we've set a precdedent that the seriously understaffed development group can be intimidated into results. So - now I can look forward to a slightly early retirement or working continuously under the gun. That does not go well with my personality in the least. The other 'real' developer is quite good and wouldn't bat an eye at seeking employment elsewhere. About half the company's operations are running on the stuff we built. We'll both go on making the best stuff we can while we can. But - thrown out to you lot - comments?
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
Leave. Don't worry about your coworkers -- those who want to put up with that kind of pressure will stay, the rest are already planning their exit strategy. If you stay, and the team misses the deadline, then they will fire you and you'll then have a black mark on your employment record. Don't wait around for them to do that to your career. If the new management has a brain at all between the lot of them, once a few people leave, they'll figure out that they are hemorrhaging their best and brightest, and will tone down their stance to preserve the rest. If they don't, then by staying you'll end up working with the losers who can't, or are not smart enough, to get new jobs elsewhere. Is that really a team you want to be working with in the future? Especially give the poor management you'll be doing it under? Yup, time to leave.
We can program with only 1's, but if all you've got are zeros, you've got nothing.
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You have some good insights. If they get rid of us, much of the existing infrastructure will continue to run but not grow, and eventually, everything collapses. Essentially, if they bring in a bunch of "smart young programmers" they'll start from scratch. Ironically, they'll probably hire more than we currently have (obvious implications here for a rational solution that will not be sought by management) Management? They'll continue to blame us while they can. Until the new team has its problems. Amazingly, the company has experience with many outside vendors. The results have almost invariably sucked. Alas, aside from contract work or other self employment, I'm way too grey for the IT industries' taste (at least in US).
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
