Further Thoughts on the "End of Days"
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There is nothing wrong with a hard deadline, the problem is the threat... Let see from their point of view what will happened if the deadline missed by current team... If they go and put you out, they not only have no product, but there is no promise at all that there will be in the near future... So you maybe loose your job, but they will be in a much worst situation... And nobody to blame in front of the management - after all you are not there anymore... If they do not put you out, in that case the tones will be higher than ever - to gain back reputation, and it will be very uncomfortable to work there... So - instead to work on that project, spend your time on searching new job...
Skipper: We'll fix it. Alex: Fix it? How you gonna fix this? Skipper: Grit, spit and a whole lotta duct tape.
You have some good insights. If they get rid of us, much of the existing infrastructure will continue to run but not grow, and eventually, everything collapses. Essentially, if they bring in a bunch of "smart young programmers" they'll start from scratch. Ironically, they'll probably hire more than we currently have (obvious implications here for a rational solution that will not be sought by management) Management? They'll continue to blame us while they can. Until the new team has its problems. Amazingly, the company has experience with many outside vendors. The results have almost invariably sucked. Alas, aside from contract work or other self employment, I'm way too grey for the IT industries' taste (at least in US).
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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Richard Branson has said words to the effect that the customers are not the most important part of a business - the employees are. Look after the employees, and they will look after the customers. If your bosses do not agree with this type of policy, then they are doomed to failure, and your best option would be to abandon ship before it sinks.
Cheers, Mick ------------------------------------------------ It doesn't matter how often or hard you fall on your arse, eventually you'll roll over and land on your feet.
That description fits this place in former times (and that was only a very short time ago). Another aspect: even if I'm gone - there's a lot of nice people working here and if there's a collapse they're in trouble. For many, this is their sole source of income (not unusual). There's always a chance they may come to their senses before they do irreparable damage. I have my survival gear but I do worry about those left behind.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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Resignation would mean I don't get to collect unemployment compensation - not a fortune - something over $400/wk. Buys a lot of pizza and single-malt. If either of us two multi-project developer's is gone, the others' work would be impacted. His leaving would overload me with work; my leaving would end development of the infrastructure. If things do collapse and they need us back . . . it will be costly.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
It's never easy. When someone comes with 'or else', this may be your only option in the long run. Otherwise it will be 'or else' every day from then on, just as you wrote. For similar reasons they can't take back their 'or else' anymore. Try to find the best way out for you, but don't wait too long. If they must do their 'or else' or if too many leave before that, things will get nasty for those that remain. That can quickly turn into a self fulfilling prophecy.
The language is JavaScript. that of Mordor, which I will not utter here
This is Javascript. If you put big wheels and a racing stripe on a golf cart, it's still a fucking golf cart.
"I don't know, extraterrestrial?" "You mean like from space?" "No, from Canada." If software development were a circus, we would all be the clowns. -
'If' The fact is a lot of software can be produced faster, I have seen gross inefficiences in my career.
Munchies_Matt wrote:
I have seen gross inefficiences in my career.
True in any industry and very true in government.
There are two kinds of people in the world: those who can extrapolate from incomplete data. There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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In a nutshell, we're very understaffed in terms of developers. Of those here, several have a fixed project which they develop/maintain 100% of their time. It really leaves two of us to rebuild - which requires very major integration with, and finally replacement of, legacy applications. Many very old. The amount of work produced in the last few years is several time that produced in the previous ten (as far back as my history goes). The 'new kids' have not only no technical background, but not even rally a good business background. Sometime (like this time), someone gets rapidly put into high management due to - let us just say - connections. Qualifications? Not so much. So - we do make very robust application - in massive amounts - but we're only partially superhuman.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
W∴ Balboos wrote:
but we're only partially superhuman.
Exactly. At my last job we had a Project Manager who only knew how to say "It must be done by this date." I would tell her there was no way that was happening. She would repeat, "It has to." I would say it won't. She didn't seem to understand that resources have limits. If you want it done sooner, increase resources and that might do it. The challenge is getting others to understand what an appropriate time frame is. But don't quit over just this, many places will have the same problem.
There are two kinds of people in the world: those who can extrapolate from incomplete data. There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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Here, we agree. We will do the best job we can while we are doing it. Communicate? My 'communication' was my being caught in one of those ambush-captures in a hallway. There was no listening - only demanding. Loyalty to what once was means we will continue to do our best. Also, loyalty to ourselves.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
W∴ Balboos wrote:
My 'communication' was my being caught in one of those ambush-captures in a hallway.
What you do here is knee them in the groin and while they are wincing and moaning you have their attention. :-\
There are two kinds of people in the world: those who can extrapolate from incomplete data. There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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W∴ Balboos wrote:
we do make this deadline. Now we've set a precdedent that the seriously understaffed development group can be intimidated into results
If you can do that you deserve to be sacked. Sorry, it is your DUTY to the company to produce a quality product as fast as possible.
You're getting paid to work for 8 hours a day, 5 days a week (assuming a 40 hour contract), in reasonable circumstances. Just because you're getting money doesn't mean you should take everything they throw at you.
Best, Sander arrgh.js - Bringing LINQ to JavaScript SQL Server for C# Developers Succinctly Object-Oriented Programming in C# Succinctly
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You have some good insights. If they get rid of us, much of the existing infrastructure will continue to run but not grow, and eventually, everything collapses. Essentially, if they bring in a bunch of "smart young programmers" they'll start from scratch. Ironically, they'll probably hire more than we currently have (obvious implications here for a rational solution that will not be sought by management) Management? They'll continue to blame us while they can. Until the new team has its problems. Amazingly, the company has experience with many outside vendors. The results have almost invariably sucked. Alas, aside from contract work or other self employment, I'm way too grey for the IT industries' taste (at least in US).
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
Another possibility is they will further 'trim' the department (looks good on the books - reduced 'running costs' - accountants love that), then when the department becomes too small to provide/sustain their next move to 'outsource' it (appears elsewhere in the ledgers, but as 'expenses' are claimable off income - even though more expensive it makes for a 'better' ledger.) As one of the inner core: play your cards right and you could end up doing the same work you do today on contract (also means you can claim your own expenses off your income). I'd suggest have your own terms organised and ready: i.e. where/when you work, what you provide, what they provide, billing/payment terms... Don't forget to charge more: you've now got to cover your own medical, time off/vacation cover (4 weeks vacation = 8% of your income, medical - check cost of insurance plans plus some for typical sick days/doctor visits). In fact be ready to 'suggest' that idea to them should they utter the smallest hints of it; if that's their thinking being on the same page from day zero will keep you in their good books. If yu can get it, it's a good way to move to working for yourself without missing a paycheck.
Sin tack the any key okay
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In an earlier post The Lounge[^] I noted that a useful member of IT staff was abruptly terminated and, as of yesterday, they grim reaper harvested another. Meanwhile, some thoughts: IT, per say, was put on notice by the New Kids on the Block that are reorganizing the company, that if a certain program isn't completed by a (demanded) hard date than we're all history. Personally, I think they were simply setting up a pretext, but let's assume not. OK - so these guys come around (and they're IT-clueless, unlike the predecessor), demand a hard deadline and make threats. Two scenario's open up. 1 - we don't make their deadline - and we're replaced by "smarter younger programmers" 2 - we do make this deadline. Now we've set a precdedent that the seriously understaffed development group can be intimidated into results. So - now I can look forward to a slightly early retirement or working continuously under the gun. That does not go well with my personality in the least. The other 'real' developer is quite good and wouldn't bat an eye at seeking employment elsewhere. About half the company's operations are running on the stuff we built. We'll both go on making the best stuff we can while we can. But - thrown out to you lot - comments?
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
Keep in mind that it's easier to get a job while you have one.
Wrong is evil and must be defeated. - Jeff Ello
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I can do most of (1). More likely than not, they'll discover the extent of the infrastructure I built, and commented though it is, if anything breaks their up to their ankles in sh*t: standing on their heads. However, they gave me a position to begin with, so I have this caveat to your solution: they put food on my table for years. I'm many things (check the soapbox) - but an ingrate is not one of them. The thought of . . . well it crossed my mind but I'll just pack my things and go.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
W∴ Balboos wrote:
However, they gave me a position to begin with
They really didn't. They weren't operating as a charity; they saw something in you where you could provide the services they needed at a rate that was attractive to them.
W∴ Balboos wrote:
have this caveat to your solution: they put food on my table for years.
Again, they didn't. They paid you a rate that you both deemed in a fair range for you to provide them a service that they needed to make a profit. Bottom line. Don't sell yourself short.
This space for rent
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In an earlier post The Lounge[^] I noted that a useful member of IT staff was abruptly terminated and, as of yesterday, they grim reaper harvested another. Meanwhile, some thoughts: IT, per say, was put on notice by the New Kids on the Block that are reorganizing the company, that if a certain program isn't completed by a (demanded) hard date than we're all history. Personally, I think they were simply setting up a pretext, but let's assume not. OK - so these guys come around (and they're IT-clueless, unlike the predecessor), demand a hard deadline and make threats. Two scenario's open up. 1 - we don't make their deadline - and we're replaced by "smarter younger programmers" 2 - we do make this deadline. Now we've set a precdedent that the seriously understaffed development group can be intimidated into results. So - now I can look forward to a slightly early retirement or working continuously under the gun. That does not go well with my personality in the least. The other 'real' developer is quite good and wouldn't bat an eye at seeking employment elsewhere. About half the company's operations are running on the stuff we built. We'll both go on making the best stuff we can while we can. But - thrown out to you lot - comments?
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
What's the new management's response likely to be if they have no IT team left? Hire from scratch or get in a "consultancy" to manage things in the interim? If your systems are critical then the first option will take too long. If they take the second route and choose a large-ish consultancy, you have the possibility of being kicked out, then approaching replacement consultancy with your intimate knowledge of the system. You get re-hired by the consultancy at twice the rate and carry on doing what you always did, the system and company don't implode, and management learn a valuable lesson. To "add value" you can spend between now and d-day removing any comments from the code and deleting all documentation. :laugh: Have done similar (with a variation) in the past. Part of team laid off to off-shore system support; new consultancy totally incompetent and incapable; re-hired as freelancer by end-user company (under a different manager) to "rescue" support of the system. I then charged them a monthly retainer on top of the hours I worked. :cool:
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In an earlier post The Lounge[^] I noted that a useful member of IT staff was abruptly terminated and, as of yesterday, they grim reaper harvested another. Meanwhile, some thoughts: IT, per say, was put on notice by the New Kids on the Block that are reorganizing the company, that if a certain program isn't completed by a (demanded) hard date than we're all history. Personally, I think they were simply setting up a pretext, but let's assume not. OK - so these guys come around (and they're IT-clueless, unlike the predecessor), demand a hard deadline and make threats. Two scenario's open up. 1 - we don't make their deadline - and we're replaced by "smarter younger programmers" 2 - we do make this deadline. Now we've set a precdedent that the seriously understaffed development group can be intimidated into results. So - now I can look forward to a slightly early retirement or working continuously under the gun. That does not go well with my personality in the least. The other 'real' developer is quite good and wouldn't bat an eye at seeking employment elsewhere. About half the company's operations are running on the stuff we built. We'll both go on making the best stuff we can while we can. But - thrown out to you lot - comments?
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
Leave. Don't worry about your coworkers -- those who want to put up with that kind of pressure will stay, the rest are already planning their exit strategy. If you stay, and the team misses the deadline, then they will fire you and you'll then have a black mark on your employment record. Don't wait around for them to do that to your career. If the new management has a brain at all between the lot of them, once a few people leave, they'll figure out that they are hemorrhaging their best and brightest, and will tone down their stance to preserve the rest. If they don't, then by staying you'll end up working with the losers who can't, or are not smart enough, to get new jobs elsewhere. Is that really a team you want to be working with in the future? Especially give the poor management you'll be doing it under? Yup, time to leave.
We can program with only 1's, but if all you've got are zeros, you've got nothing.
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You have some good insights. If they get rid of us, much of the existing infrastructure will continue to run but not grow, and eventually, everything collapses. Essentially, if they bring in a bunch of "smart young programmers" they'll start from scratch. Ironically, they'll probably hire more than we currently have (obvious implications here for a rational solution that will not be sought by management) Management? They'll continue to blame us while they can. Until the new team has its problems. Amazingly, the company has experience with many outside vendors. The results have almost invariably sucked. Alas, aside from contract work or other self employment, I'm way too grey for the IT industries' taste (at least in US).
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
-
In an earlier post The Lounge[^] I noted that a useful member of IT staff was abruptly terminated and, as of yesterday, they grim reaper harvested another. Meanwhile, some thoughts: IT, per say, was put on notice by the New Kids on the Block that are reorganizing the company, that if a certain program isn't completed by a (demanded) hard date than we're all history. Personally, I think they were simply setting up a pretext, but let's assume not. OK - so these guys come around (and they're IT-clueless, unlike the predecessor), demand a hard deadline and make threats. Two scenario's open up. 1 - we don't make their deadline - and we're replaced by "smarter younger programmers" 2 - we do make this deadline. Now we've set a precdedent that the seriously understaffed development group can be intimidated into results. So - now I can look forward to a slightly early retirement or working continuously under the gun. That does not go well with my personality in the least. The other 'real' developer is quite good and wouldn't bat an eye at seeking employment elsewhere. About half the company's operations are running on the stuff we built. We'll both go on making the best stuff we can while we can. But - thrown out to you lot - comments?
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
If that's their management style, then I would invest no effort at all in meeting their deadlines, because things will only get worse, and you will never be thanked by people like that for breaking your back. Good managers are worth making an effort for; bad managers are not.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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What's the new management's response likely to be if they have no IT team left? Hire from scratch or get in a "consultancy" to manage things in the interim? If your systems are critical then the first option will take too long. If they take the second route and choose a large-ish consultancy, you have the possibility of being kicked out, then approaching replacement consultancy with your intimate knowledge of the system. You get re-hired by the consultancy at twice the rate and carry on doing what you always did, the system and company don't implode, and management learn a valuable lesson. To "add value" you can spend between now and d-day removing any comments from the code and deleting all documentation. :laugh: Have done similar (with a variation) in the past. Part of team laid off to off-shore system support; new consultancy totally incompetent and incapable; re-hired as freelancer by end-user company (under a different manager) to "rescue" support of the system. I then charged them a monthly retainer on top of the hours I worked. :cool:
There's something about your overall comment that I like. I'd been a contractor for them for years - now I'm a 'real' employee - but I did already decide that should they let us go and find out 'oooop!' then it will cost them to get me back. Alas, though, I'm strapped with ethics: I won't obfuscate the code. Since I'm the only one that comments code, maybe they won't even look for them. As far as working as a contractor - I've already got all the fixin's
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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Leave. Don't worry about your coworkers -- those who want to put up with that kind of pressure will stay, the rest are already planning their exit strategy. If you stay, and the team misses the deadline, then they will fire you and you'll then have a black mark on your employment record. Don't wait around for them to do that to your career. If the new management has a brain at all between the lot of them, once a few people leave, they'll figure out that they are hemorrhaging their best and brightest, and will tone down their stance to preserve the rest. If they don't, then by staying you'll end up working with the losers who can't, or are not smart enough, to get new jobs elsewhere. Is that really a team you want to be working with in the future? Especially give the poor management you'll be doing it under? Yup, time to leave.
We can program with only 1's, but if all you've got are zeros, you've got nothing.
A critical component in this that the company's primary business is not software - they just use it. I'm practical enough to know that I've no chance to be hire directly (not for development, at least). At my age, some look to work at Walmart. In the sense, then, of hemorrhaging the best and brightest, although that might be true in terms of pure intellectual merit, it wouldn't have any effect on day-to-day operations until the systems begin to (inevitably) collapse. They've hired lousy outside contractors before - so they've experience at wasting money on people's who's primary interest is in keeping the money flowing.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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W∴ Balboos wrote:
I'm way too grey for the IT industries' taste
Dye your hair and trim your resume. No, I'm not kidding.
We can program with only 1's, but if all you've got are zeros, you've got nothing.
Well - trim my resume - get rid of wasteful things like education . . . OK - dye my hair - but what about that pesky birthday that HR will see?
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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If that's their management style, then I would invest no effort at all in meeting their deadlines, because things will only get worse, and you will never be thanked by people like that for breaking your back. Good managers are worth making an effort for; bad managers are not.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
I'll do the work, as always - their deadline (if they every even got one) has no effect on me. I do what I do at the rate I do it. If it goes live it's because I'm as sure as I can be that it works. My boss brought the whole IT department together, as a family, and build loyalty. And, on top of that, he's a really productive coder (he, too, loves doing it). There's always a possibility that some of the corporate old guard will pull them aside and point out to them that their running towards a cliff. Things only getting worse is somewhat where I started out: if the threat seems to work they'll try to do it again. Might as well save myself the trouble of worrying about it. If, for some reason, this deadline is met and they try to do it again - I'll explain to them that it doesn't work that way unless they plant to do the coding themselves. Possibly in a less KSS manner.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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I can do most of (1). More likely than not, they'll discover the extent of the infrastructure I built, and commented though it is, if anything breaks their up to their ankles in sh*t: standing on their heads. However, they gave me a position to begin with, so I have this caveat to your solution: they put food on my table for years. I'm many things (check the soapbox) - but an ingrate is not one of them. The thought of . . . well it crossed my mind but I'll just pack my things and go.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
From the sounds of things, the ones making the unreasonable demands are not at all the people that you worked for over the years. You own them nothing. If they're a proxy for an ownership/management that you're fond of, maybe their demands need to be mentioned upstream a bit.
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics." - Benjamin Disraeli
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From the sounds of things, the ones making the unreasonable demands are not at all the people that you worked for over the years. You own them nothing. If they're a proxy for an ownership/management that you're fond of, maybe their demands need to be mentioned upstream a bit.
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics." - Benjamin Disraeli
Nathan Minier wrote:
From the sounds of things, the ones making the unreasonable demands are not at all the people that you worked for over the years. You own them nothing.
I think you mentioned aloud what I've kept in my mind's background processes. Perhaps they'll grow out of this phase before it's too late, but you're right: those who I feel indebted to are no longer part of the analysis.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
