Further Thoughts on the "End of Days"
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You have some good insights. If they get rid of us, much of the existing infrastructure will continue to run but not grow, and eventually, everything collapses. Essentially, if they bring in a bunch of "smart young programmers" they'll start from scratch. Ironically, they'll probably hire more than we currently have (obvious implications here for a rational solution that will not be sought by management) Management? They'll continue to blame us while they can. Until the new team has its problems. Amazingly, the company has experience with many outside vendors. The results have almost invariably sucked. Alas, aside from contract work or other self employment, I'm way too grey for the IT industries' taste (at least in US).
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
Another possibility is they will further 'trim' the department (looks good on the books - reduced 'running costs' - accountants love that), then when the department becomes too small to provide/sustain their next move to 'outsource' it (appears elsewhere in the ledgers, but as 'expenses' are claimable off income - even though more expensive it makes for a 'better' ledger.) As one of the inner core: play your cards right and you could end up doing the same work you do today on contract (also means you can claim your own expenses off your income). I'd suggest have your own terms organised and ready: i.e. where/when you work, what you provide, what they provide, billing/payment terms... Don't forget to charge more: you've now got to cover your own medical, time off/vacation cover (4 weeks vacation = 8% of your income, medical - check cost of insurance plans plus some for typical sick days/doctor visits). In fact be ready to 'suggest' that idea to them should they utter the smallest hints of it; if that's their thinking being on the same page from day zero will keep you in their good books. If yu can get it, it's a good way to move to working for yourself without missing a paycheck.
Sin tack the any key okay
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In an earlier post The Lounge[^] I noted that a useful member of IT staff was abruptly terminated and, as of yesterday, they grim reaper harvested another. Meanwhile, some thoughts: IT, per say, was put on notice by the New Kids on the Block that are reorganizing the company, that if a certain program isn't completed by a (demanded) hard date than we're all history. Personally, I think they were simply setting up a pretext, but let's assume not. OK - so these guys come around (and they're IT-clueless, unlike the predecessor), demand a hard deadline and make threats. Two scenario's open up. 1 - we don't make their deadline - and we're replaced by "smarter younger programmers" 2 - we do make this deadline. Now we've set a precdedent that the seriously understaffed development group can be intimidated into results. So - now I can look forward to a slightly early retirement or working continuously under the gun. That does not go well with my personality in the least. The other 'real' developer is quite good and wouldn't bat an eye at seeking employment elsewhere. About half the company's operations are running on the stuff we built. We'll both go on making the best stuff we can while we can. But - thrown out to you lot - comments?
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
Keep in mind that it's easier to get a job while you have one.
Wrong is evil and must be defeated. - Jeff Ello
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I can do most of (1). More likely than not, they'll discover the extent of the infrastructure I built, and commented though it is, if anything breaks their up to their ankles in sh*t: standing on their heads. However, they gave me a position to begin with, so I have this caveat to your solution: they put food on my table for years. I'm many things (check the soapbox) - but an ingrate is not one of them. The thought of . . . well it crossed my mind but I'll just pack my things and go.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
W∴ Balboos wrote:
However, they gave me a position to begin with
They really didn't. They weren't operating as a charity; they saw something in you where you could provide the services they needed at a rate that was attractive to them.
W∴ Balboos wrote:
have this caveat to your solution: they put food on my table for years.
Again, they didn't. They paid you a rate that you both deemed in a fair range for you to provide them a service that they needed to make a profit. Bottom line. Don't sell yourself short.
This space for rent
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In an earlier post The Lounge[^] I noted that a useful member of IT staff was abruptly terminated and, as of yesterday, they grim reaper harvested another. Meanwhile, some thoughts: IT, per say, was put on notice by the New Kids on the Block that are reorganizing the company, that if a certain program isn't completed by a (demanded) hard date than we're all history. Personally, I think they were simply setting up a pretext, but let's assume not. OK - so these guys come around (and they're IT-clueless, unlike the predecessor), demand a hard deadline and make threats. Two scenario's open up. 1 - we don't make their deadline - and we're replaced by "smarter younger programmers" 2 - we do make this deadline. Now we've set a precdedent that the seriously understaffed development group can be intimidated into results. So - now I can look forward to a slightly early retirement or working continuously under the gun. That does not go well with my personality in the least. The other 'real' developer is quite good and wouldn't bat an eye at seeking employment elsewhere. About half the company's operations are running on the stuff we built. We'll both go on making the best stuff we can while we can. But - thrown out to you lot - comments?
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
What's the new management's response likely to be if they have no IT team left? Hire from scratch or get in a "consultancy" to manage things in the interim? If your systems are critical then the first option will take too long. If they take the second route and choose a large-ish consultancy, you have the possibility of being kicked out, then approaching replacement consultancy with your intimate knowledge of the system. You get re-hired by the consultancy at twice the rate and carry on doing what you always did, the system and company don't implode, and management learn a valuable lesson. To "add value" you can spend between now and d-day removing any comments from the code and deleting all documentation. :laugh: Have done similar (with a variation) in the past. Part of team laid off to off-shore system support; new consultancy totally incompetent and incapable; re-hired as freelancer by end-user company (under a different manager) to "rescue" support of the system. I then charged them a monthly retainer on top of the hours I worked. :cool:
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In an earlier post The Lounge[^] I noted that a useful member of IT staff was abruptly terminated and, as of yesterday, they grim reaper harvested another. Meanwhile, some thoughts: IT, per say, was put on notice by the New Kids on the Block that are reorganizing the company, that if a certain program isn't completed by a (demanded) hard date than we're all history. Personally, I think they were simply setting up a pretext, but let's assume not. OK - so these guys come around (and they're IT-clueless, unlike the predecessor), demand a hard deadline and make threats. Two scenario's open up. 1 - we don't make their deadline - and we're replaced by "smarter younger programmers" 2 - we do make this deadline. Now we've set a precdedent that the seriously understaffed development group can be intimidated into results. So - now I can look forward to a slightly early retirement or working continuously under the gun. That does not go well with my personality in the least. The other 'real' developer is quite good and wouldn't bat an eye at seeking employment elsewhere. About half the company's operations are running on the stuff we built. We'll both go on making the best stuff we can while we can. But - thrown out to you lot - comments?
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
Leave. Don't worry about your coworkers -- those who want to put up with that kind of pressure will stay, the rest are already planning their exit strategy. If you stay, and the team misses the deadline, then they will fire you and you'll then have a black mark on your employment record. Don't wait around for them to do that to your career. If the new management has a brain at all between the lot of them, once a few people leave, they'll figure out that they are hemorrhaging their best and brightest, and will tone down their stance to preserve the rest. If they don't, then by staying you'll end up working with the losers who can't, or are not smart enough, to get new jobs elsewhere. Is that really a team you want to be working with in the future? Especially give the poor management you'll be doing it under? Yup, time to leave.
We can program with only 1's, but if all you've got are zeros, you've got nothing.
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You have some good insights. If they get rid of us, much of the existing infrastructure will continue to run but not grow, and eventually, everything collapses. Essentially, if they bring in a bunch of "smart young programmers" they'll start from scratch. Ironically, they'll probably hire more than we currently have (obvious implications here for a rational solution that will not be sought by management) Management? They'll continue to blame us while they can. Until the new team has its problems. Amazingly, the company has experience with many outside vendors. The results have almost invariably sucked. Alas, aside from contract work or other self employment, I'm way too grey for the IT industries' taste (at least in US).
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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In an earlier post The Lounge[^] I noted that a useful member of IT staff was abruptly terminated and, as of yesterday, they grim reaper harvested another. Meanwhile, some thoughts: IT, per say, was put on notice by the New Kids on the Block that are reorganizing the company, that if a certain program isn't completed by a (demanded) hard date than we're all history. Personally, I think they were simply setting up a pretext, but let's assume not. OK - so these guys come around (and they're IT-clueless, unlike the predecessor), demand a hard deadline and make threats. Two scenario's open up. 1 - we don't make their deadline - and we're replaced by "smarter younger programmers" 2 - we do make this deadline. Now we've set a precdedent that the seriously understaffed development group can be intimidated into results. So - now I can look forward to a slightly early retirement or working continuously under the gun. That does not go well with my personality in the least. The other 'real' developer is quite good and wouldn't bat an eye at seeking employment elsewhere. About half the company's operations are running on the stuff we built. We'll both go on making the best stuff we can while we can. But - thrown out to you lot - comments?
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
If that's their management style, then I would invest no effort at all in meeting their deadlines, because things will only get worse, and you will never be thanked by people like that for breaking your back. Good managers are worth making an effort for; bad managers are not.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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What's the new management's response likely to be if they have no IT team left? Hire from scratch or get in a "consultancy" to manage things in the interim? If your systems are critical then the first option will take too long. If they take the second route and choose a large-ish consultancy, you have the possibility of being kicked out, then approaching replacement consultancy with your intimate knowledge of the system. You get re-hired by the consultancy at twice the rate and carry on doing what you always did, the system and company don't implode, and management learn a valuable lesson. To "add value" you can spend between now and d-day removing any comments from the code and deleting all documentation. :laugh: Have done similar (with a variation) in the past. Part of team laid off to off-shore system support; new consultancy totally incompetent and incapable; re-hired as freelancer by end-user company (under a different manager) to "rescue" support of the system. I then charged them a monthly retainer on top of the hours I worked. :cool:
There's something about your overall comment that I like. I'd been a contractor for them for years - now I'm a 'real' employee - but I did already decide that should they let us go and find out 'oooop!' then it will cost them to get me back. Alas, though, I'm strapped with ethics: I won't obfuscate the code. Since I'm the only one that comments code, maybe they won't even look for them. As far as working as a contractor - I've already got all the fixin's
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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Leave. Don't worry about your coworkers -- those who want to put up with that kind of pressure will stay, the rest are already planning their exit strategy. If you stay, and the team misses the deadline, then they will fire you and you'll then have a black mark on your employment record. Don't wait around for them to do that to your career. If the new management has a brain at all between the lot of them, once a few people leave, they'll figure out that they are hemorrhaging their best and brightest, and will tone down their stance to preserve the rest. If they don't, then by staying you'll end up working with the losers who can't, or are not smart enough, to get new jobs elsewhere. Is that really a team you want to be working with in the future? Especially give the poor management you'll be doing it under? Yup, time to leave.
We can program with only 1's, but if all you've got are zeros, you've got nothing.
A critical component in this that the company's primary business is not software - they just use it. I'm practical enough to know that I've no chance to be hire directly (not for development, at least). At my age, some look to work at Walmart. In the sense, then, of hemorrhaging the best and brightest, although that might be true in terms of pure intellectual merit, it wouldn't have any effect on day-to-day operations until the systems begin to (inevitably) collapse. They've hired lousy outside contractors before - so they've experience at wasting money on people's who's primary interest is in keeping the money flowing.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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W∴ Balboos wrote:
I'm way too grey for the IT industries' taste
Dye your hair and trim your resume. No, I'm not kidding.
We can program with only 1's, but if all you've got are zeros, you've got nothing.
Well - trim my resume - get rid of wasteful things like education . . . OK - dye my hair - but what about that pesky birthday that HR will see?
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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If that's their management style, then I would invest no effort at all in meeting their deadlines, because things will only get worse, and you will never be thanked by people like that for breaking your back. Good managers are worth making an effort for; bad managers are not.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
I'll do the work, as always - their deadline (if they every even got one) has no effect on me. I do what I do at the rate I do it. If it goes live it's because I'm as sure as I can be that it works. My boss brought the whole IT department together, as a family, and build loyalty. And, on top of that, he's a really productive coder (he, too, loves doing it). There's always a possibility that some of the corporate old guard will pull them aside and point out to them that their running towards a cliff. Things only getting worse is somewhat where I started out: if the threat seems to work they'll try to do it again. Might as well save myself the trouble of worrying about it. If, for some reason, this deadline is met and they try to do it again - I'll explain to them that it doesn't work that way unless they plant to do the coding themselves. Possibly in a less KSS manner.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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I can do most of (1). More likely than not, they'll discover the extent of the infrastructure I built, and commented though it is, if anything breaks their up to their ankles in sh*t: standing on their heads. However, they gave me a position to begin with, so I have this caveat to your solution: they put food on my table for years. I'm many things (check the soapbox) - but an ingrate is not one of them. The thought of . . . well it crossed my mind but I'll just pack my things and go.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
From the sounds of things, the ones making the unreasonable demands are not at all the people that you worked for over the years. You own them nothing. If they're a proxy for an ownership/management that you're fond of, maybe their demands need to be mentioned upstream a bit.
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics." - Benjamin Disraeli
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From the sounds of things, the ones making the unreasonable demands are not at all the people that you worked for over the years. You own them nothing. If they're a proxy for an ownership/management that you're fond of, maybe their demands need to be mentioned upstream a bit.
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics." - Benjamin Disraeli
Nathan Minier wrote:
From the sounds of things, the ones making the unreasonable demands are not at all the people that you worked for over the years. You own them nothing.
I think you mentioned aloud what I've kept in my mind's background processes. Perhaps they'll grow out of this phase before it's too late, but you're right: those who I feel indebted to are no longer part of the analysis.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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Well - trim my resume - get rid of wasteful things like education . . . OK - dye my hair - but what about that pesky birthday that HR will see?
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
HR will see it, but it's illegal for them to act on it, and they know it. The hiring team will eventually figure it out, but maybe not before you've shown them what you know. Dinging you simply because you're too old is a weak (as in illegal) position for them to be in, so they will try to do things honestly and find a better candidate. That's certainly a better position for you to be in than having them decide not to hire you the moment they see you.
We can program with only 1's, but if all you've got are zeros, you've got nothing.
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I'll do the work, as always - their deadline (if they every even got one) has no effect on me. I do what I do at the rate I do it. If it goes live it's because I'm as sure as I can be that it works. My boss brought the whole IT department together, as a family, and build loyalty. And, on top of that, he's a really productive coder (he, too, loves doing it). There's always a possibility that some of the corporate old guard will pull them aside and point out to them that their running towards a cliff. Things only getting worse is somewhat where I started out: if the threat seems to work they'll try to do it again. Might as well save myself the trouble of worrying about it. If, for some reason, this deadline is met and they try to do it again - I'll explain to them that it doesn't work that way unless they plant to do the coding themselves. Possibly in a less KSS manner.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
W∴ Balboos wrote:
Might as well save myself the trouble of worrying about it.
:thumbsup: As we say in the UK: "Don't let the b@st@rds grind you down".
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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Another post of yours that deserves a rude comment.
Munchies_Matt wrote:
If you can do that you deserve to be sacked.
Me and this other developer operate as a gestalt - we rebuilt half the companies software infrastructure in just a few years - almost every item extensible without limitations and fiercely reliable. But - we can only hope you find yourself in a position where you're asked to do a job that requires half a dozen developers and you do it with one colleague (or in your case, you'd like work alone as who'd want to be stuck there). A quality product - as fast as possible - WELL - which one is it to be? If you want speed, hire an adequate headcount of qualified staff. Your comment so much reminds me of Marie Antoinette's solution of what the poor should eat if they have no bread. I understand the people's response.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
And its not rude, its a fact of life. Compete or die. Yes, its tough, but thats the way the world works.
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And its not rude, its a fact of life. Compete or die. Yes, its tough, but thats the way the world works.
You appear to prefer the route of an evolutionary cul-de-sac. Humans, individually, compete very poorly - meal for a lion without getting hair stuck in his teeth. When we stop competing and work cooperatively, then we're a rather formidable species. Snuggling up on a lion-skin rug. So - you hole up in your cul-de-sac. The rest of us will continue to evolve.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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You appear to prefer the route of an evolutionary cul-de-sac. Humans, individually, compete very poorly - meal for a lion without getting hair stuck in his teeth. When we stop competing and work cooperatively, then we're a rather formidable species. Snuggling up on a lion-skin rug. So - you hole up in your cul-de-sac. The rest of us will continue to evolve.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
You arent French are you?
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In an earlier post The Lounge[^] I noted that a useful member of IT staff was abruptly terminated and, as of yesterday, they grim reaper harvested another. Meanwhile, some thoughts: IT, per say, was put on notice by the New Kids on the Block that are reorganizing the company, that if a certain program isn't completed by a (demanded) hard date than we're all history. Personally, I think they were simply setting up a pretext, but let's assume not. OK - so these guys come around (and they're IT-clueless, unlike the predecessor), demand a hard deadline and make threats. Two scenario's open up. 1 - we don't make their deadline - and we're replaced by "smarter younger programmers" 2 - we do make this deadline. Now we've set a precdedent that the seriously understaffed development group can be intimidated into results. So - now I can look forward to a slightly early retirement or working continuously under the gun. That does not go well with my personality in the least. The other 'real' developer is quite good and wouldn't bat an eye at seeking employment elsewhere. About half the company's operations are running on the stuff we built. We'll both go on making the best stuff we can while we can. But - thrown out to you lot - comments?
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
As others have said, you provide services to your employee and in return, receive a wage. As long as you are receiving the wage, you should provide them with the best value you can. As their demands seem to be outstripping your ability to provide value in the time period they have defined, then, what are your options? 1. Leave the company and start retirement. 2. Leave the company and find employment elsewhere 2. Wait to see if what happens when their demands are not met. So, assuming you want to work elsewhere, do you want to leave or your own terms or let them release you? At my previous position, there were 18 people in the department when I started. I survived two rounds of reductions, and, when I left, the department was down to 5 people. I chose to leave because the work load was increasing, but the compensation wasn't. The work/home life balance was getting skewed far to much to the work side. I took a job in an area I enjoyed and have never looked back. What you do will depend on how you answer the above questions.
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As others have said, you provide services to your employee and in return, receive a wage. As long as you are receiving the wage, you should provide them with the best value you can. As their demands seem to be outstripping your ability to provide value in the time period they have defined, then, what are your options? 1. Leave the company and start retirement. 2. Leave the company and find employment elsewhere 2. Wait to see if what happens when their demands are not met. So, assuming you want to work elsewhere, do you want to leave or your own terms or let them release you? At my previous position, there were 18 people in the department when I started. I survived two rounds of reductions, and, when I left, the department was down to 5 people. I chose to leave because the work load was increasing, but the compensation wasn't. The work/home life balance was getting skewed far to much to the work side. I took a job in an area I enjoyed and have never looked back. What you do will depend on how you answer the above questions.
Wise reflections. By considering the work environment - Since it's already short-hand in development, if they do any cuts the workload will likely become oppressive. A person who use to work where my wife worked had an excellent response to management: Two Hand - Eight Hours - Which do you want done? This was clerical, but addressing your first paragraph, just because management makes a demand doesn't mean it can happen. My recent lapse in response was replacing a solution I had yesterday with a much better one that's more dynamic, flexible, and will (best of all) be easier to work with. Which is being built for the use by another (the other) developer throughout a major application which is essential to the companies operations. At the very least, neither of us would make junk for the other. Lucky management! The current plan, however, is to go gracefully into what will become quite a comfortable (albeit not luxurious) lifestyle. If I fret over anything, it's to make sure I keep my mind exercised thoroughly and consistently. There's quite a lot to do - will it be enough? As long as work was fun, well, it was fun. When it's not fun anymore - well, life is precious and amazingly short.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010