Further Thoughts on the "End of Days"
-
Another post of yours that deserves a rude comment.
Munchies_Matt wrote:
If you can do that you deserve to be sacked.
Me and this other developer operate as a gestalt - we rebuilt half the companies software infrastructure in just a few years - almost every item extensible without limitations and fiercely reliable. But - we can only hope you find yourself in a position where you're asked to do a job that requires half a dozen developers and you do it with one colleague (or in your case, you'd like work alone as who'd want to be stuck there). A quality product - as fast as possible - WELL - which one is it to be? If you want speed, hire an adequate headcount of qualified staff. Your comment so much reminds me of Marie Antoinette's solution of what the poor should eat if they have no bread. I understand the people's response.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
And its not rude, its a fact of life. Compete or die. Yes, its tough, but thats the way the world works.
-
And its not rude, its a fact of life. Compete or die. Yes, its tough, but thats the way the world works.
You appear to prefer the route of an evolutionary cul-de-sac. Humans, individually, compete very poorly - meal for a lion without getting hair stuck in his teeth. When we stop competing and work cooperatively, then we're a rather formidable species. Snuggling up on a lion-skin rug. So - you hole up in your cul-de-sac. The rest of us will continue to evolve.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
-
You appear to prefer the route of an evolutionary cul-de-sac. Humans, individually, compete very poorly - meal for a lion without getting hair stuck in his teeth. When we stop competing and work cooperatively, then we're a rather formidable species. Snuggling up on a lion-skin rug. So - you hole up in your cul-de-sac. The rest of us will continue to evolve.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
You arent French are you?
-
In an earlier post The Lounge[^] I noted that a useful member of IT staff was abruptly terminated and, as of yesterday, they grim reaper harvested another. Meanwhile, some thoughts: IT, per say, was put on notice by the New Kids on the Block that are reorganizing the company, that if a certain program isn't completed by a (demanded) hard date than we're all history. Personally, I think they were simply setting up a pretext, but let's assume not. OK - so these guys come around (and they're IT-clueless, unlike the predecessor), demand a hard deadline and make threats. Two scenario's open up. 1 - we don't make their deadline - and we're replaced by "smarter younger programmers" 2 - we do make this deadline. Now we've set a precdedent that the seriously understaffed development group can be intimidated into results. So - now I can look forward to a slightly early retirement or working continuously under the gun. That does not go well with my personality in the least. The other 'real' developer is quite good and wouldn't bat an eye at seeking employment elsewhere. About half the company's operations are running on the stuff we built. We'll both go on making the best stuff we can while we can. But - thrown out to you lot - comments?
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
As others have said, you provide services to your employee and in return, receive a wage. As long as you are receiving the wage, you should provide them with the best value you can. As their demands seem to be outstripping your ability to provide value in the time period they have defined, then, what are your options? 1. Leave the company and start retirement. 2. Leave the company and find employment elsewhere 2. Wait to see if what happens when their demands are not met. So, assuming you want to work elsewhere, do you want to leave or your own terms or let them release you? At my previous position, there were 18 people in the department when I started. I survived two rounds of reductions, and, when I left, the department was down to 5 people. I chose to leave because the work load was increasing, but the compensation wasn't. The work/home life balance was getting skewed far to much to the work side. I took a job in an area I enjoyed and have never looked back. What you do will depend on how you answer the above questions.
-
As others have said, you provide services to your employee and in return, receive a wage. As long as you are receiving the wage, you should provide them with the best value you can. As their demands seem to be outstripping your ability to provide value in the time period they have defined, then, what are your options? 1. Leave the company and start retirement. 2. Leave the company and find employment elsewhere 2. Wait to see if what happens when their demands are not met. So, assuming you want to work elsewhere, do you want to leave or your own terms or let them release you? At my previous position, there were 18 people in the department when I started. I survived two rounds of reductions, and, when I left, the department was down to 5 people. I chose to leave because the work load was increasing, but the compensation wasn't. The work/home life balance was getting skewed far to much to the work side. I took a job in an area I enjoyed and have never looked back. What you do will depend on how you answer the above questions.
Wise reflections. By considering the work environment - Since it's already short-hand in development, if they do any cuts the workload will likely become oppressive. A person who use to work where my wife worked had an excellent response to management: Two Hand - Eight Hours - Which do you want done? This was clerical, but addressing your first paragraph, just because management makes a demand doesn't mean it can happen. My recent lapse in response was replacing a solution I had yesterday with a much better one that's more dynamic, flexible, and will (best of all) be easier to work with. Which is being built for the use by another (the other) developer throughout a major application which is essential to the companies operations. At the very least, neither of us would make junk for the other. Lucky management! The current plan, however, is to go gracefully into what will become quite a comfortable (albeit not luxurious) lifestyle. If I fret over anything, it's to make sure I keep my mind exercised thoroughly and consistently. There's quite a lot to do - will it be enough? As long as work was fun, well, it was fun. When it's not fun anymore - well, life is precious and amazingly short.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
-
In an earlier post The Lounge[^] I noted that a useful member of IT staff was abruptly terminated and, as of yesterday, they grim reaper harvested another. Meanwhile, some thoughts: IT, per say, was put on notice by the New Kids on the Block that are reorganizing the company, that if a certain program isn't completed by a (demanded) hard date than we're all history. Personally, I think they were simply setting up a pretext, but let's assume not. OK - so these guys come around (and they're IT-clueless, unlike the predecessor), demand a hard deadline and make threats. Two scenario's open up. 1 - we don't make their deadline - and we're replaced by "smarter younger programmers" 2 - we do make this deadline. Now we've set a precdedent that the seriously understaffed development group can be intimidated into results. So - now I can look forward to a slightly early retirement or working continuously under the gun. That does not go well with my personality in the least. The other 'real' developer is quite good and wouldn't bat an eye at seeking employment elsewhere. About half the company's operations are running on the stuff we built. We'll both go on making the best stuff we can while we can. But - thrown out to you lot - comments?
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
- the majority of you leave. I've seen that happen even without such a big change.
Follow my adventures with .NET Core at my new blog, Erisia Information Services.
-
In an earlier post The Lounge[^] I noted that a useful member of IT staff was abruptly terminated and, as of yesterday, they grim reaper harvested another. Meanwhile, some thoughts: IT, per say, was put on notice by the New Kids on the Block that are reorganizing the company, that if a certain program isn't completed by a (demanded) hard date than we're all history. Personally, I think they were simply setting up a pretext, but let's assume not. OK - so these guys come around (and they're IT-clueless, unlike the predecessor), demand a hard deadline and make threats. Two scenario's open up. 1 - we don't make their deadline - and we're replaced by "smarter younger programmers" 2 - we do make this deadline. Now we've set a precdedent that the seriously understaffed development group can be intimidated into results. So - now I can look forward to a slightly early retirement or working continuously under the gun. That does not go well with my personality in the least. The other 'real' developer is quite good and wouldn't bat an eye at seeking employment elsewhere. About half the company's operations are running on the stuff we built. We'll both go on making the best stuff we can while we can. But - thrown out to you lot - comments?
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
Quit. The environment has gone toxic.
Software Zen:
delete this; -
Quit. The environment has gone toxic.
Software Zen:
delete this;Resumes would be the answer if I were, say, 20 years younger. Since a replacement position is going to be difficult (or impossible), aside from self employment (back to the future) then I need to wait to be let go (and thus eligible for unemployment insurance). And, of course, it's always possible that the old guard, who still hold the real power in the company, will call the new management in and read them the Riot Act.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
-
Resumes would be the answer if I were, say, 20 years younger. Since a replacement position is going to be difficult (or impossible), aside from self employment (back to the future) then I need to wait to be let go (and thus eligible for unemployment insurance). And, of course, it's always possible that the old guard, who still hold the real power in the company, will call the new management in and read them the Riot Act.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
Sadly, it sounds like you're in a similar situation to mine. I'm 55, and finding a new position would be difficult. Secondly, if I'm laid off, I'd receive a nice severance package under the current policy. My only hope is for a sale of the business to complete (promised Any Day Now for the last couple of months :sigh: ).
Software Zen:
delete this; -
Alas, I'm rather old by developers' standards - old enough to be two. One of my pet lines is to get a job as a programmer you need to be 25 years old and have 30 years experience. Maybe some local contract work? Fortunately - I put in the preparation and am essentially immune from any real damage. Time to get back into some serious photography? (!) The thing is, I love coding - but, then again, I learned to do it and did it years before someone would pay me.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
I to am an older programmer. I am 67 years old. I am being paid below market because there is real and active age discrimination in our profession. I have done some contract work, and it is OK. Unfortunately, it is not really stable employment. As soon as you get settled and the job done, the contract is up and it is time to move on.... I do it (programming and development)because I love it. My pet line is that I work for free... I charge for the B.S. I have to put up with. Good luck....
-
I to am an older programmer. I am 67 years old. I am being paid below market because there is real and active age discrimination in our profession. I have done some contract work, and it is OK. Unfortunately, it is not really stable employment. As soon as you get settled and the job done, the contract is up and it is time to move on.... I do it (programming and development)because I love it. My pet line is that I work for free... I charge for the B.S. I have to put up with. Good luck....
Thanks for your good wishes. I'm not sure I'll do contract work if they terminate me. More likely, teaching locally (Adult Ed, for example) and/or charitable work. I've created a state of reasonable financial security - but I don't want my mind to rot away from stagnation (or excessive posting on CP). As it turns out, I've been keeping a spreadsheet (since Hurricane Sandy) and know what my monthly (and thus annual) expenses are. Including vacation expenses, although there will be more of those. My calm feeling, now that I see a possible precipice, is the mental test of whether or not I really believe in my preparations - I guess I do.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
-
In an earlier post The Lounge[^] I noted that a useful member of IT staff was abruptly terminated and, as of yesterday, they grim reaper harvested another. Meanwhile, some thoughts: IT, per say, was put on notice by the New Kids on the Block that are reorganizing the company, that if a certain program isn't completed by a (demanded) hard date than we're all history. Personally, I think they were simply setting up a pretext, but let's assume not. OK - so these guys come around (and they're IT-clueless, unlike the predecessor), demand a hard deadline and make threats. Two scenario's open up. 1 - we don't make their deadline - and we're replaced by "smarter younger programmers" 2 - we do make this deadline. Now we've set a precdedent that the seriously understaffed development group can be intimidated into results. So - now I can look forward to a slightly early retirement or working continuously under the gun. That does not go well with my personality in the least. The other 'real' developer is quite good and wouldn't bat an eye at seeking employment elsewhere. About half the company's operations are running on the stuff we built. We'll both go on making the best stuff we can while we can. But - thrown out to you lot - comments?
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
Although I am a driver personality, I have to agree with you. Nobody should be driven like that. Personally, I would have a closed door meeting, and explain where you are at, and what your thought process is, like you did here. They will argue that they wont do this again, it is just this ONE last time, to save the queen. They always do. And many believe it. Meanwhile, keep your resume up to date, tighten the belt a little, and be prepared to be let go, or to walk. It certainly is no longer a career, but a job, at this point.
-
Although I am a driver personality, I have to agree with you. Nobody should be driven like that. Personally, I would have a closed door meeting, and explain where you are at, and what your thought process is, like you did here. They will argue that they wont do this again, it is just this ONE last time, to save the queen. They always do. And many believe it. Meanwhile, keep your resume up to date, tighten the belt a little, and be prepared to be let go, or to walk. It certainly is no longer a career, but a job, at this point.
Remember - I'm not in this alone! The whole department, or at least the developers, have been given the bullying attempt. Certainly, at least two of us (perhaps with the tightest grip on the short hairs) could turn around and fart in their general direction as we leave. But - a calm and reasonable meeting - with discussion rather than demands - is the way a grown up would have handled it. Remember, though, we're talking about management. The merit system for that job is based on . . . well that is a good question, isn't it? Belt tightening? Fortunately, Mrs. Wife and myself are minimalists. We can just relax. Doing something I like to do and getting paid for it keeps me working. But - I've been considering the resume thing: if I want to do some teaching I'll need to recast it.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
-
In an earlier post The Lounge[^] I noted that a useful member of IT staff was abruptly terminated and, as of yesterday, they grim reaper harvested another. Meanwhile, some thoughts: IT, per say, was put on notice by the New Kids on the Block that are reorganizing the company, that if a certain program isn't completed by a (demanded) hard date than we're all history. Personally, I think they were simply setting up a pretext, but let's assume not. OK - so these guys come around (and they're IT-clueless, unlike the predecessor), demand a hard deadline and make threats. Two scenario's open up. 1 - we don't make their deadline - and we're replaced by "smarter younger programmers" 2 - we do make this deadline. Now we've set a precdedent that the seriously understaffed development group can be intimidated into results. So - now I can look forward to a slightly early retirement or working continuously under the gun. That does not go well with my personality in the least. The other 'real' developer is quite good and wouldn't bat an eye at seeking employment elsewhere. About half the company's operations are running on the stuff we built. We'll both go on making the best stuff we can while we can. But - thrown out to you lot - comments?
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
-
Did they recently make a trip to India? Might be the outsourcing promise hanging over your collective heads.
They have been burned by that route, before. There's some semi-internal Indian contractors, now - and not anyone I know is happy with their work. They've even out-sourced 'Locally' and have gotten screwed. However, for some people, the concept of a steep learning curve amounts to jumping off a cliff.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
-
Remember - I'm not in this alone! The whole department, or at least the developers, have been given the bullying attempt. Certainly, at least two of us (perhaps with the tightest grip on the short hairs) could turn around and fart in their general direction as we leave. But - a calm and reasonable meeting - with discussion rather than demands - is the way a grown up would have handled it. Remember, though, we're talking about management. The merit system for that job is based on . . . well that is a good question, isn't it? Belt tightening? Fortunately, Mrs. Wife and myself are minimalists. We can just relax. Doing something I like to do and getting paid for it keeps me working. But - I've been considering the resume thing: if I want to do some teaching I'll need to recast it.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
Which is why I suggest a sit down with management as the first option. The problem is that management is clueless about IT and what it takes. But regardless. The deadline will come to pass. With or without software ready. The earlier the conversation, the better for everyone. But there are risks. I would bring 1-2 people in the meeting with you, not the entire team. But make sure you can speak for the team. Good Luck!
-
W∴ Balboos wrote:
However, they gave me a position to begin with
They really didn't. They weren't operating as a charity; they saw something in you where you could provide the services they needed at a rate that was attractive to them.
W∴ Balboos wrote:
have this caveat to your solution: they put food on my table for years.
Again, they didn't. They paid you a rate that you both deemed in a fair range for you to provide them a service that they needed to make a profit. Bottom line. Don't sell yourself short.
This space for rent
What Pete and John said. Just as you are disposable to this company, so should they be to you. There's plenty of other jobs out there. If it's no longer a good place for you to work, leave. Life's too short to have a job where you hate getting out of bed in the morning and dread going in. You can make your reasons for leaving clear in an exit interview without being antagonistic. (I must admit I like John's advice though). If your description of these people is accurate, I doubt you'd get the chance, or they would ignore it. It sounds as if it's you and one other developer, who you like. It might be worthwhile to feel that person out. Not so you both could leave in a blaze of glory, flipping off the new management as you go out the door (but that might be nice), but because you don't want to leave your friend in a bad place. Just let him/her know you're looking around, (s)he can react to that news however they see fit. The point is, you don't owe them anything. Best of luck.
-
Which is why I suggest a sit down with management as the first option. The problem is that management is clueless about IT and what it takes. But regardless. The deadline will come to pass. With or without software ready. The earlier the conversation, the better for everyone. But there are risks. I would bring 1-2 people in the meeting with you, not the entire team. But make sure you can speak for the team. Good Luck!
Ultimately, not my place - there's a IT department director. A bunch of others. My part in this opus-magnum is, in a certain way, support: I make tools/interfaces to facilitate the implementation and make sure everything work as close to "no matter what" as possible. One or two others will be working with data, using my stuff to insert/edit/delete/display/etc. Architecture for all of this is something we (developers) come to agree on, together. The real problem, I think, is that they need to be made to understand how much was done in the last few years and how much the company depends upon it.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
-
In an earlier post The Lounge[^] I noted that a useful member of IT staff was abruptly terminated and, as of yesterday, they grim reaper harvested another. Meanwhile, some thoughts: IT, per say, was put on notice by the New Kids on the Block that are reorganizing the company, that if a certain program isn't completed by a (demanded) hard date than we're all history. Personally, I think they were simply setting up a pretext, but let's assume not. OK - so these guys come around (and they're IT-clueless, unlike the predecessor), demand a hard deadline and make threats. Two scenario's open up. 1 - we don't make their deadline - and we're replaced by "smarter younger programmers" 2 - we do make this deadline. Now we've set a precdedent that the seriously understaffed development group can be intimidated into results. So - now I can look forward to a slightly early retirement or working continuously under the gun. That does not go well with my personality in the least. The other 'real' developer is quite good and wouldn't bat an eye at seeking employment elsewhere. About half the company's operations are running on the stuff we built. We'll both go on making the best stuff we can while we can. But - thrown out to you lot - comments?
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
So these New Kids have deadlines. That's ok. Those are their deadlines. You can explain that that's just not how development/programming works; that you will, as always, do the best you can, but in the end, it will take as long as it takes. Leave the decision of continued employment in their court. On the other hand there is a great amount of satisfaction to be had by quitting an unsatisfying job. Such a relief. I had a reasonable amount of savings, too, and decided to resign from an 18-year job because of some 'differences of opinion.' My budget is fine, but tighter than anticipated because of the rise of health insurance premiums. Cheers,
Mark Just another cog in the wheel
-
So these New Kids have deadlines. That's ok. Those are their deadlines. You can explain that that's just not how development/programming works; that you will, as always, do the best you can, but in the end, it will take as long as it takes. Leave the decision of continued employment in their court. On the other hand there is a great amount of satisfaction to be had by quitting an unsatisfying job. Such a relief. I had a reasonable amount of savings, too, and decided to resign from an 18-year job because of some 'differences of opinion.' My budget is fine, but tighter than anticipated because of the rise of health insurance premiums. Cheers,
Mark Just another cog in the wheel
Mark Starr wrote:
Those are their deadlines
You Hit It Exactly. However, because they're new kids with new powers, the second part will fall on deaf ears. They'll do what they do just to show everyone they are doing something. My previous employer thought they could hire someone better who could do in one year what it took me two years to do. Four years later, at times, paying two developers instead of just me, they had their new product - a few added bells and whistles, but cosmetically still using my design and probably the same under the hood, as well. And, in the interim, they needed me to create data conversion code which cost them $700 for a few hours work.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010